 
garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY
| From the well, duh! Department... Why can't they just see the "paradigm shift" and go with it...
Can you imagine what our world had been like if we had stuck with other outdated technology instead of evolving? Can you say "8-track"..."cassette"..."LP"...hell, how about "78 RPM's"???
Point is, the music business has been driving technological change for a long time with all the format changes...can't they see this is just another step in their own evolution process?
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HappyBunny
Hi. Cram It.
Premium
join:2001-06-23
Long Beach, CA
 ·Charter Pipeline
| Re: From the well, duh! Department... Well I say we all go back to 8 tracks. No worry about high quality copying *there*. Ah, the days of hearing two songs all at once on one track. Wow, I smell a new marketing angle--play two songs at one time and listen faster! Are you listening, RIAA?
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aitech
Guru. Kneel
join:2000-12-19
Boston, MA
clubs: 
| Re: From the well, duh! Department... said by djrobx  :
quote:
No, because this format change does nothing to boost their profits!
How can it boost their profits when they won't even sell something comparable?
Of course it's profitable. The more format changes there are - the more profitable!! Just look at your CD/TAPE collection.. I know I have many of the same tapes/cd's. I had Wizard of Oz on VHS, now I buy it on DVD. Poof - same thing, 2x the money.  Beatles 8track, Beatles Tape, Beatles CD, Beatles SACD, etc.. They can just keep re-packaging the same stuff and sell it for even more..
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1536/384 Covad. 1380/360 actual. 20-60ms pings. Great!!Was a BITCH to install 60+ days and 100+ incompetent moron's along the way, but it's GREAT and SOLID now.. GO NYY!! | |
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| Beeper
Part Of The Problem
join:2001-09-27
Dayton, OH
clubs:
| said by garagerock :
Can you imagine what our world had been like if we had stuck with other outdated technology instead of evolving?
Yes, I can. It's easy to do. Just look at the QWERTY keyboard.
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Guaranteed Fear and Loathing. Abandon all hope. Prepare for the Weirdness. Get familiar with Cannibalism. | |
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garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY
| Re: From the well, duh! Department... said by Beeper :
said by garagerock :
Can you imagine what our world had been like if we had stuck with other outdated technology instead of evolving?
Yes, I can. It's easy to do. Just look at the QWERTY keyboard.
Well, for those of us that have taken typing 101, the QWERTY keyboard comes naturally. If you don't like that format, well....invent a new keyboard??
I've been typing since 1982 on everything from a manual typewriter to a WANG mainframe and every flavor of PC in between, doing everything from data entry to word processing to IT management. I can't even imagine another keyboard format. I'll be one of those old farts some day hammering away on my clunker PS/2 keyboard while everyone else is just using Dragontype or having their thoughts scanned by the Dept of Homeland Security's Prevento-Terrorist Thingamagigie.
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| | | Beeper
Part Of The Problem
join:2001-09-27
Dayton, OH
clubs:
| Re: From the well, duh! Department... said by garagerock :
Well, for those of us that have taken typing 101, the QWERTY keyboard comes naturally. If you don't like that format, well....invent a new keyboard??
An new, innovative, more efficient, technologically superior keyboard has been available since 1936. Support for the keyboard is built into Windows and into MacOS X.
»www.thisistrue.com/dvorak.html
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Guaranteed Fear and Loathing. Abandon all hope. Prepare for the Weirdness. Get familiar with Cannibalism. | |
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garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY
| Re: From the well, duh! Department... said by Beeper :
said by garagerock :
Well, for those of us that have taken typing 101, the QWERTY keyboard comes naturally. If you don't like that format, well....invent a new keyboard??
An new, innovative, more efficient, technologically superior keyboard has been available since 1936. Support for the keyboard is built into Windows and into MacOS X.
»www.thisistrue.com/dvorak.html
so, what is your point? there is a "better" keyboard? I find that highly subjective.
What's next-a treatise on the Metric System?
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SRFireside
join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX
| Re: From the well, duh! Department... Read the link. There might be something to the Dvorak keyboard. The prob is the learning curve. You have millions, if not billions, of people learning how to use the QWERTY key sequence to the point where it's second nature. How quick can a new process be adopted? First you have to relearn how to use your fingers on a keyboard. Then you have differentiate between Dvorak and QWERTY, as we all know the standard is still the latter. Some outdated formats are just easier to keep rather than adopting. Just look at the failed attempt to get the U.S. metric.
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Love Science Fiction? www.spacestationzoom.com | |
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cybermud
join:2000-08-25
Chicago, IL | Re: From the well, duh! Department... I think that was Beeper's point...too bad its wasted half the page to discuss. | |
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| | | | | Beeper
Part Of The Problem
join:2001-09-27
Dayton, OH
clubs:
| said by garagerock :
so, what is your point? there is a "better" keyboard? I find that highly subjective.
My point is that I am imagining a world where an outdated technology is retained. It may have been a rhetorical question, but sometimes they need answering.
Change and evolution do not necessarily equate progress. Sometimes retraining or sunk costs outweigh the benefits of change. That's why QWERTY exists today.
Sometimes a new technology is inferior to what it replaced. Compare the CD and LP.
I thought it was bogus when people claimed that a LP sounded better than a CD, right up to the minute I heard Nirvana on vinyl. That was a moment of clarity for me.
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Guaranteed Fear and Loathing. Abandon all hope. Prepare for the Weirdness. Get familiar with Cannibalism. | |
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SRFireside
join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX
| Re: From the well, duh! Department... said by Beeper :
Sometimes a new technology is inferior to what it replaced. Compare the CD and LP.
I thought it was bogus when people claimed that a LP sounded better than a CD, right up to the minute I heard Nirvana on vinyl. That was a moment of clarity for me.
Since this thread has been mostly about semantics I thought I would pass a new tangent in here . CD's are literally of better quality than vinyl. No doubt about it. The frequency response that a 42Khz, 16 bit digital recording can pick up blows away what a vinyl record can ever get imprinted on the album. Vinyl records also are subject to the quality of the needle that is picking up the vibrations from the record. Lasers don't have the same problem.
What you probably experienced on that Nirvana album were likely two different things. One could be the CD wasn't mixed properly to get the full scope of dynamic range and frequency response (it has happened before). Another, and more likely reason, is probably you heard more "warmth" on the vinyl album as opposed to the CD. This is due to two things:
One is THD (third harmonic distortion). This is when certain midrange frequencies kind of overlap on each other and create distortion not found on the source recording. This muddles up the mid range frequencies. They lose their clarity. That same muddling effect also brings a kind of unnatural warmth to the recording. On a CD your THD level is several times lower compared to most analog playback methods. So what the CD is doing is clearing up all the distorted "warmth" you hear on records as well adding sharper highs and more powerful lows.
Two is the inherent noise in using a turntable. The whole technology stems around a needle picking up vibrations caused by the ridges on a vinyl record. The thing is that needle picks up a fair amount of background and surface noise along with it. The added noise muffles the fidelity of the instruments, thus you get that "warmth" again due to hiding the pure audio.
So the reason why most vinyl advocates don't like CD's is because they are not used to hearing the music in such clarity. They are used to that artificial "warmth" coming from older technology. They also aren't used to hearing the added frequency response, which they attribute to the recording being "tinny" or too much high end. In reality you are getting something a lot closer to what the musicians and engineers in the studio were listening to in the first place.
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Love Science Fiction? www.spacestationzoom.com | |
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garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY
| Re: From the well, duh! Department... While I agree with you that CD's are inherently "better" than LP's, I can see the subjective argument applying as well. Steak tastes like steak, and certain cuts are better than others, but it really comes down to individual taste. Some like em rare and bloody, some like em charbroiled to a coal-black finish.
I guess it's all a matter of the perspective of the individual, really. QWERTY vs. Dorvak. Mac vs. PC. DSL vs. Cable. Missionary position vs. Doggy Style. Coke vs. Pepsi. None of those are really "Better" than the other, but we all have our individual tastes, likes/dislikes, biases, etc.
What was my point, again?
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| | | | | | | danielsan7
join:2003-01-13
australia
| Regarding the comments that frequency response is broader on CD than vinyl discs ..
Well I'm afraid that's just not true .. you'll find that you can cut a 45khz wave on vinyl .. if you tried to record that on CD .. if the equipment didn't filter it out as all AD/DA converters are supposed to, you would get a horrible static (aliasing).
Also the frequency response of a CD is not up to 44.1khz like people always think .. the best signal you could put to a CD is a 22.05 khz square wave. No! not a wave of any other form (it requires a minimum of 2 samples to draw a full wavelength i guarantee you .. think about it) .. only square, although it would playback as a sine, even this would be near impossible to get right unless done totally digitally and even then consider this, you can't possibly put a 22.04 or a 21 or 20 or even a 11khz wave signal without total jittering of the wave creating more like heavily modulated frequency that even as low as 10khz has no real form or shape like it does on vinyl.
Vinyl DOES have however, a poor signal to noise ratio and will distort high frequencies over a certain amplitude due to transients that cannot be drawn or followed by a cutter or needle.
The CD format is a cheap consumer format that was designed too early when techology wasn't yet cutting it in the digital department. If you have accurate good quality monitors and play back vinyl that was cut from a tape master without ever being digitised along the way and then play back a CD master of the same thing .. and you ears are good, you will notice significant greater clarity and smoothness in the vinyl. Go ahead and measure it, test it but obviously don't waste you time trying to do it with digital equipment. Duh! as you say. | |
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metro305
join:2002-05-31
Durham, NC
| This is not a flame or combative remark just an FYI and a dash of an opinion.
There is very little room for subjectivity when it comes to ergonomics due to the anatomical nature of the body. Some designs is superior for the body and their comfort due to SCIENCE not OPINION. Yes the body is dynamic and it has evolved over many years and some bodies are different but AS A WHOLE the anatomy of humans is the SAME. That being my view I see why he mentioned the DVORAK vs. QWERTY. | |
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| | | | Q_ball
join:2001-09-28
Santa Ana, CA
| just cuz it sounds better doesn't mean it is better. You will not kill the QWERTY because a man says it "is more ergonomic" it maybe, it may not. But imagine the millions of dollars spent to re-educate typers on this new format. There is little chance for it to suceed. | |
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| magnusx
join:2002-01-09
| said by garagerock :
Why can't they just see the "paradigm shift" and go with it...
...can't they see this is just another step in their own evolution process?
Evolutionary. | |
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| magnusx
join:2002-01-09 | MUAHAHAHAH! They cannot stop P2P! I will create my own if every company falls! Programmers 0wnz j00! | |
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IcyFire
Flammable Ice
join:2001-05-30
Somewhere |  HAHAH!
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Bender2000
Bite My Shiny Metal Ass
Premium
join:2002-05-06
Roxboro, QC
clubs:
| Re: HAHAH! Microsoft sees a profit, not on the everyday consumer but on the business clients. That is fact. As for M$ products being easily duplicated, they still are. You can still download microsoft products with ease. The only difference now is, I can't copy it and make it work (cause I'm not a software cracker) but that isn't stopping me from being able to download the devils own copy of windows xp for instance. Not to mention, getting around the SP1 stupidity. The RIAA can't win this one. If there's music on the disk, there's a way to get it off. End of story. People will find a way. | |
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MarineCop7
@bellsouth.net
| You don't even have to have much of an imagination to get music off of any protected media. record it using the same method you'd record vinyl or tapes to mp3. I've copied music off DVDs this way as well.
It's Easy: Run your source signal (Line out from DVD, CD etc.) into your sound card's input and record it a one large file, edit into tracks, convert to MP3 and share with anyone who might want it to make up for the trouble you went to. | |
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Voodrew
@64.91.x.x
| Re: HAHAH! This is a great idea and has been mentioned elsewhere before, but defeats the "ease" angle that MP3 ripping is known for. My system is getting a bit outdated but still can rip a 5 minute song in 11 seconds and compress it to MP3 in 10 seconds. A standard album only takes about 5 and a half minutes to rip and compress. Also, the ripper takes an almost pure digital snapshot of the song where running the output of one device into the input of the sound card is nothing more than recording an analogue source. You have the same results "ripping" your tape collection. I wouldn't want the quality of the MP3's that produced | |
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rescue85
In Memory of Guinness 03-30-07
Premium
join:2002-06-12
Brick, NJ
clubs:
| Just proves that the RIAA will never win! This just proves that the RIAA will never win. They need to stop their opposition to change and roll with it. The technology of today is cheap, they are wasting so much money defending the technology of yesterday and trying to defeat the technology of today!
Think of how much they are losing in legal fees. The numbers have got to be staggering. This just give one more punch to the gut of the RIAA! | |
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| whereami74
join:2000-11-21
Wichita, KS
| Re: Just proves that the RIAA will never win! ok hear me out for a sec.
I don't like the RIAA one bit but, I think it would be a mistake not to at least attempt to take on file trading. If the RIAA ignored all file trading attempts, and did not do anything to try and stop it - file trading would be even bigger than it is now. Several people do not download music because of the fear of the RIAA and all their mumble jumbo. I am not one of them, as I have downloaded several music, movie and game files. As a general rule if I like what i hear, see or play, I usually go and buy it. But if the RIAA did not attempt to control this situation it could get out of control. Their are too many people who download and then never buy regardless if they like it or not. Pirating music and software does not hurt a business when it is underground. In fact a lot of times it is because of pirating that a lot of artists and games become big. It gives them alot of coverage. (Doom 3) But it is the fear of the RIAA that keeps everyone from downloading everything. Somebody has to buy the stuff in order for companys to stay in business and keep making the products.
The RIAA messed up when they took on Napster. They made it big and brought file trading to the minds of millions. before that whole deal I never downloaded anything. (Thanks RIAA) So what the RIAA is doing now is damage control. Don't get me wrong I think they are going about it the wrong way, but they do have to do something to at least slow the dieing process of their empire. What they need to be doing during this time is working on a new business model to cope with the times and start listening to their consumers. I doubt that will happen. But here's to hoping.
Like I said in the begining, I don't like the RIAA, I think they have got to be a group of the dumbest f^&ks out there. But what they are doing now it damage control. (though they seem to be creating even more damage than before lol).
Just my opinion - nothing more | |
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kba4
join:2001-10-23
Canton, OH
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Just proves that the RIAA will never win! the only damage they're 'controlling' is of their own doing. napster had what, 2-3million users in it's prime? they knocked one down, and another 10 sprung up simply out of inspiration. the RI/MP-AA are groups that are in place for control; they know they're losing, and each day is a day closer to their retirement. if they're smart, they'll shut up so they can at least live at their own level.
the argument that downloading causes a loss in sales is flawed. a negative number can not be proven, and so even the best estimates are surely wrong.
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roadrunner is a good name for the service; i don't remember one cartoon where we actually like the rr character | |
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roamer1
sticking it out at you
join:2001-03-24
Atlanta, GA
clubs:
| Re: Just proves that the RIAA will never win! said by kba4 :
the RI/MP-AA are groups that are in place for control; they know they're losing, and each day is a day closer to their retirement.
I agree, the RIAA (I'm not too concerned about the MPAA as they and their membership seem to have a modicum of a clue) don't seem to be really fighting P2P etc. for the profit, they seem to be fighting it to keep their stranglehold on the market, which indirectly creates profit. Any other industry would adapt to serve its customers (even the motion picture industry has, with DVDs), but the record industry can't seem to evolve past the unwanted dinosaur it is now.
-SC
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No-Bull SE US Wireless Info: »www.sewireless.info/
Atlanta Apt/Condo Cable & Broadband Info: »www.atlaptcable.info/ | |
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Voodrew
@64.91.x.x
| Re: Just proves that the RIAA will never win! I have a brilliant/stupid idea:
Remember "Wag The Dog"? The RIAA should start their own P2P. Make it free. They should then fight it in court to generate publicity, and users (a side effect, right?) then when the world can't seem to live without the service, begin to slowly charge for it, with higher spiraling costs each year. IT WORKED FOR CD's!!!!!!
Ok. So, CD's weren't free in the beginning, but after the technology was adopted (I remember the $28 to $50 music CD's), it did drop to the price that tapes cost when CD's were introduced. Now, with technological advances, it costs less and less to produce a CD each year, yet the prices have continued to rise.
I wonder if this would actually work. The biggest problem from the consumer angle is that WE'LL BUY ANYTHING (Bum Fights as an example, the second highest profiting venture on the internet at this time (Pay 2 bums $20 each to kick the Sh-t out of each other while being videotaped). But that is a different forum)!!! | |
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SRFireside
join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX
| If you ask me there is a difference between going crazy nuts paranoid and "at least attempting". If the record industry was smart they would make some official jestures about unauthorized P2P being copyright violation, put together their own P2P service with low enough prices to bring in the cheap skates, add some exclusive goodies on the CD's to make the hard copies more enticing, and enjoy the free marketing file sharing provides in secret.
Instead of using said logical approach they decide to take the role of lunatic and try to turn the world from round to flat in no certain terms.
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Love Science Fiction? www.spacestationzoom.com | |
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| | | majella77
join:2001-10-03
Chicago, IL
| Re: Just proves that the RIAA will never win! RIAA, or some record companies seem to be getting a clue, finally. Seeing some cd's with dvd included. Additonal goodies that make the more than $12 price tag somewhat justifiable. I hope this is the beginning of a saner approach by the monopolists at the RIAA. We'll see. | |
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| | Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
| with no RIAA action p2p would still be a shady back alley thing, all the RIAA did was push it into the main stream and now its like speeding or coping movies from blockbuster. everyone does it atleast once.
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[60 Sorcerer]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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HappyBunny
Hi. Cram It.
Premium
join:2001-06-23
Long Beach, CA
·Charter Pipeline
| Why cant the RIAA get it through their stupid heads that if they want people to actually *buy* the music, it first must be worthy. I always buy the cd's of certain artists--for example, I just bought the new George Harrison cd--and I sprung for the Limited Edition one ($10 extra) that had a special box, a guitar pick, a poster and an extra DVD in it. Why? I love his music, and this package just added to the whole experience. They "gave' me something I could not get in downloading the songs.
I have bitched for years --long before Napster--that cds have denied us the packaging that used to add a lot to the experience of buying a new record album. The jacket of an album was often a work of art, and contained cool posters and other stuff. The lyrics were actually set in type big enough to read.
The record companies devalued the packaging of cd's so much that consumers felt we no longer needed it either--then the RIAA gets mad when we decide not to actually purchase their overpriced plastic disk. Because that was all we got--an often broken jewel case and a cd that is worth about 25 cents. The RIAA is now reaping what they sowed.
(BTW, the repackaging of the Beatles albums is an especial bitch of mine--the band that did more to revolutionize album art got the shoddiest packaging treatment imaginable with their cd re-releases).
[text was edited by author 2002-11-25 13:07:58] | |
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91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT
| Re: Just proves that the RIAA will never win! said by HappyBunny :
(BTW, the repackaging of the Beatles albums is an especial bitch of mine--the band that did more to revolutionize album art got the shoddiest packaging treatment imaginable with their cd re-releases).
[text was edited by author 2002-11-25 13:07:58]
As a former graphic designer who designed (then) VHS sleeves and sell sheets for a leading importer of Japanimation, I am intimately familiar with why the quality of packaging has gone downhill: maximizing profits. I worked for a company that had a production coordinator who must have had a permanent case of PMS. She was impossible to please, picked at all the wrong things, but let other, really bad work go out the door with nary a complaint.
This company had a reputation for finding help as cheap as it came. I overheard the CEO once comment, "if I could hire people legally at $1 an hour, I'd have all the help I need." This is the mentality that pervades the media industry in general.
I was soon replaced with an in-house crew of inexperienced college kids working on Mac computers and the quality of the sleeves went straight downhill. As long as people buy the anime videos, the company doesn't do anything about the problem. This is the way business is run.
If you don't like your CD packaging, for god's sake--WRITE your publisher!
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Take care,
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
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Voodrew
@64.91.x.x | Don't forget to add in that you are actually paying $18 for the two or three tracks that you really wanted from that 12 track CD. | |
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whereami74
join:2000-11-21
Wichita, KS
| Always nice to hear | |
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Pz_
join:2001-03-31
Brownsburg, IN
clubs:
| Re: Always nice to hear I'm kinda worried about them disappearing. I mean, what will we talk about when they are gone?
They are an endless source of entertainment. FREE entertainment at that.
Uh oh, bet they will instate some sort of "making fun of the RIAA" fee or something next. | |
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SRFireside
join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX | Re: Always nice to hear Don't worry. The MPAA, ILEC's, the "Dubya" Bush administration, Microsoft, and a score of others will be around to keep us both entertained and in fear.
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Love Science Fiction? www.spacestationzoom.com | |
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MacGyver
Bell Sucks
Premium,ExMod 2003-05
join:2001-10-14
Orleans, ON | POINTLESS I love the headline in the story link, "pointless". That pretty much sums up the entire thing in one word, including the usefulness of the RIAA. | |
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Dirk Daring
join:2000-08-03
Ashburn, VA
| Won? I don't know about that. Can the protections be defeated? Of course. They have and will be. The community will always find a way to break the code and get a workaround.
But can the community break the code and find a workaround for the FBI/Company Admins/University Officials/Police breaking down your door, grabbing all your computers and throwing you in jail/kicking you out of school/fining you thousands of dollars/etc? Thats what will stop illegal file swapping and the RIAA damn well knows it.
Go ask the cadets at the Naval Academy that didn't have their computers taken away how many MP3s/Movies/P2P apps they have on their computers now.
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Barney Google
@optonline.net | Re: Won? I don't know about that. You got it right Dirk. | |
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| Cyron
join:2002-09-24
Charlotte, NC
| The cops will only break down your door if they can find you. As P2P evolves, so will the anonymity. You can already make it difficult to track down your IP address using today's P2P clients. The next generation of clients will have anonymity that can only be broken through time and effort. Federal Law enforcement agencies will not waste their budgets on Copyright Infringers. | |
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Voodrew
@64.91.x.x | Re: Won? I don't know about that. Think so?
What have they been wasting the budgets on up until now (besides doughnuts) | |
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Microhard3
join:2001-08-03
Huntington Beach, CA
| lmao.. The RIAA just sticks their fingers in their ears and starts to saying "la la la la la la la la la la I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU la la la la la la la la la."
Can't imagine a company actually looking at the model and saying...OMG WE WILL NEVER STEM THE TIDE!!
What is next the Bush administration realizes that we can't win the war on drugs and changes policy?
It is a good thing when people open their eyes and take a double take on the enemy and realize what they are up against....when will our Gov and citizens do the same? | |
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sago
join:2001-12-19
| you can't stop it You can't. They are right.
On top of that, if they ever want to have a chance at marketing a "pay" service for downloading songs, they have to lighten up on persecuting individuals with mp3 files on their computers.
Looking at the figures, it is doubtful that any amount of filetrading has affected sales any significant amount. They are complaining about a 5 or 10 percent slump in the middle of a crappy economy and the burst of the dot com bubble? Hello?
I have become convinced that downloading has little effect on sales; and like the other poster said, if you provide the consumer with a nice package, and nice artwork, that gives the customer a reason to buy the album, people will prefer to not download, but will buy the product every time.
It is unstoppable. Sooner or later they will give up and just go with the flow. | |
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YearZero
Heavy Metal Bakesale
Premium
join:2001-08-28
| Here is how the meeting really went... Bob- Ok guys we know we are never going to compete with Kazaa and they are going to whoop our ass so we need to figure out a way in which we can inject all the microsoft media devices we can into it...
Fred- So you are saying our main goal is much like windows to infect all the computers world wide with a flaky operating system or media related device and then make millions and millions off of it?
Bob- Right on Fred like to see that thinking keep it up. Now get out there and take over the world.. I mean make us some more money.
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"Oil it's what's for dinner"..supporting political parties has been known to cause brain damage and ignorance-FOX news = joke, "F**k You, F**k You, and your Republican Bullsh*t Nonsense."- Lewis Black | |
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JosephStalin
join:2002-08-08
Springfield, MA | Heh Hehe, they wasted money on these "researchers." I don't have to be a researcher to know that P2P cannot be stopped.
Stalin | |
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wut_wut
@209.234.x.x
| I already figure this out. Well, I already know that p2p can't be stop. It is sad seeing the music industry robbing us for years. They were charged with price fixing!! Now the tide has turned. It's like a robber crying foul because ppls has found a new way to stop him from robbing them. The law only works when it's fair for everyone. If it's not. People will go around or through it. | |
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| Rebel7254
join:2002-11-11
Johnson City, TN | Re: I already figure this out. Very true statement. | |
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David
No,there is another.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
clubs: | Playing taps To the RIAA.......
When will we see the white flag of death.
After all I go into stores look at the album, the group and go to the net before I even think about buying it.
after all if it sounds like S__T why buy it? | |
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