2008: The Battle For ISP Piracy FiltersAT&T is up for it...which ISP is next? 09:28AM Thursday Jan 24 2008 by Karltags: Fileswapping · business · contentAfter spending considerably effort putting legal pressure on Universities to stop file trading, expect the RIAA and MPAA this year to put their attention squarely on ISPs. The entertainment industry has ratcheted up pressure for ISPs to begin filtering pirated content, and NBC Universal would love to see filters placed within home broadband hardware. Most ISPs, with the exception of AT&T, aren't eager to become cyber-piracy nannies. Some estimates say no less than 80 per cent of all internet traffic comprises copyright-infringing files on P2P networks. -IFPI |
The pressure on ISPs is global. The entertainment industry's international arm, the IFPI, this week issued a report (via Paid Content) that claims that ISPs have allowed piracy to "run rampant" across their networks "under the guise of technological advancement.""Some estimates say no less than 80 per cent of all internet traffic comprises copyright-infringing files on P2P networks. ISPs have largely stood by, allowing a massive devaluation of copyrighted music. This ... has prompted a crisis in recorded music. There is only one acceptable moment for ISPs to start taking responsibility for protecting content and that moment is now." The IFPI wants European ISPs to implement a three strikes and you're out policy, whereby users get booted from the network after the third offense. Groups like the EFF have argued that such filters would curtail artist and consumer rights, interfere with the transfer of legitimate copyrighted materials, limit innovation, increase broadband prices and, most likely, ultimately do little to thwart piracy: Introducing filtering technology at ISP facilities would simply cause infringing Net users to encrypt their communications, eliminating any chance that these filters could successfully target these transfers. Such encrypted content cannot be examined or blocked by third parties such as ISPs. Filters may also annoy investors who don't like the added cost of the ISP playing watchdog for other industries. Many customers will also quickly decide to find unfiltered broadband service elsewhere. Related:- MPAA: Filtering Pirates Would Increase Capacity
- Europe Rejects 'Three Strikes' Anti-Piracy Plan
- Comcast Scraps P2P 'Bill Of Rights' Idea
- ISPs To Start Booting More P2P Users
- Canada Considering ISP Piracy Tax?
- U2 Manager: Crazy ISP Hippies Should Pay Us
- Send Your Enemy's Printer A DMCA Warning!
- Rhapsody Ditches the DRM
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  waybehind
@vianet.ca
from: SRFireside 
| 80% If 80% of the data that passes the network is entertainement content don't you think they are missing the boat?
I see market potential here not a reason to filter. | |
|  |   jgkolt Premium join:2004-02-21 Lakewood, OH clubs: | Re: 80% I hope att does become liability and gets massively sued. If i can see evidence of this no matter how small on my internet im gone. -- 3 free for you/3 free for me: Free Stock Trades : PM Me | |
|  |  underdog Premium join:2006-06-25 Philadelphia, PA
| When are these greedy AHOLE'S are going to get it if they would complete instead of trying strong arm and just actually get the customer a service nobody would care. People would still go out buy media but the whole drm need to go away as well as those AHOLE'S LIKE RIAA AND MPAA......... | |
|   P Ness You'Ve Forgotten 9-11 Already Premium join:2001-08-29 Cromwell, CT clubs: 
| Lawsuits if they start to filter they will lose the immunity they currently have
then if the filters fail they will be open to massive lawsuits by admitting guilt through their filters.
sure the movie/music companies are behind this, but when it fails and they have no one with real money to sue who do you think they will go after??? the billion dollar att?? lol
att= stupid -- www.stopfcc.comI do not think the government needs to restrict free speech especially on a device that has an off knob. | |
|  |   TK Junk Mail Golf season has returned - hurrah Premium join:2002-03-03 Margate City, NJ clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Lawsuits said by P Ness :if they start to filter they will lose the immunity they currently have Assuming no changes in the law. And if the ISPs do agree to filter, they WILL get a change in the law to protect them from lawsuits. To think otherwise goes against what everyone here always says - that the companies own the Congress. -- Internet News My BLOG My Web Page | |
|  jc100
join:2002-04-10
·RoadRunner Cable
edit: January 24th, @09:38AM
| Charge the RIAA / MPAA And the drama continues.... Someone needs to pull the thorn out of their asses, that's for sure. With all the money they piss away on lobbying, suing, etc, they could be paying their artists decently. Not to mention, they could use this money to produce stuff that was worth a crap. Hell, if they released stuff worth buying, I think most would go out and do so. I know movies I love, I still buy and pay to see. It's just that most that come out aren't worth the time of day. Who the hell wants to drop ten dollars, knowing it'll be no better than a 2 hour time killer. The same with CDs. I've got no problem buying ones I like or the songs I like, but that's a rarity on the CDS. It's been ages since a CD has come out with more than half a cd with good songs. Usually, you got 1 or 2 and the rest crummy fillers. Hence, the pay per mp3 model is just fine. Maybe, they should work on these things, and I bet their profits would rise.
P.S. the AA's have nothing to lose when ISPS get sued into oblivion now do they? If I were an ISP and forced to implement this crap, I'd make the AA's assume all legal responsibility so the class actions would get directed their way. At least most ISPS have common sense to know this is dangerous ground, except ATT... But they've got what's coming as long as immunity isn't handed out. | |
|   jhboricua ExMod 2000-01 join:2000-06-06 Minneapolis, MN clubs: | 80%???? They must have hired the same people the MPAA used to incorrectly claim that 44% of the film industry's domestic losses came from college piracy. :/
This is bull, nothing more. | |
|  |  flash58
join:2004-02-01 Spokane, WA | Re: 80%???? Yep, it's Bull...80% of internet traffic is porn. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |   Rogue Wolf Gave At The Office
join:2003-08-12 Saratoga Springs, NY | Re: 80%???? 80%?
He must be cutting down.
 | |
|  |  |  |  TheMG
join:2007-09-04 Edmonton, AB | Re: 80%???? You're right, 80% is complete and utter BS. | |
|  |  Kearnstd Elf Wizard
join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ | the youtube figure was 10% of all HTTP traffic not raw internet traffic. -- [65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
|  |  |   tapeloop Triceratops 130 bbl Premium join:2004-06-27 Airstrip One
edit: January 28th, @12:20PM
| Re: 80%???? said by Kearnstd :the youtube figure was 10% of all HTTP traffic not raw internet traffic. 60% of your statement is correct, but the remaining 75% is inaccurate. | |
|   piracysells
@verizon.net
| $$ piracy sells broadband subscriptions and drives growth/profits the same can be said about porn the same can be said about free and fee content
so goes the quandary.. do ISPs risk cutting off subscribers at the risk of losing the $ubscription$? after all, their bread isn't buttered at the riaa / mpaa, now is it? many isps in their advertising campaigns have touted the benefits of downloading audio (mp3s) and video (many file formats & sources), even online gaming as reasons to subscribe to high speed internet services... if the content somehow goes away and that benefit isn't so great anymore.. well, you can only guess what will happen-- Docsis 3 & FTTN/P won't seem so attractive anymore at any price
how much interference will customers tolerate?
We'll start to see the results this year of AT&T's net filters, Comcasts throttling of p2p & online gaming (ex. WOW), Time Warner's trial data caps and others. No doubt customers will be angry enough to vote with their feet & wallet. | |
|   Kilroy Premium,MVM join:2002-11-21 Sterling Heights, MI
| A recent study shows That there is no Internet traffic comprised of copyright-infringing files on the network.
The quoted study include me, myself and I and has a statisical variance of -/= 10%.
Estamate is just another name for guess. If you don't really know, don't give a number. -- How hard does DRM have to bite before business abandon it? | |
|  |  |  |   Camelot One Premium,MVM join:2001-11-21 Austin, TX clubs: | Re: The Real Crisis I regret that I can only give 1 thumbs up on your post. It needs more. | |
|  |   sbrook Premium,Mod join:2001-12-14 H0H 0H0 | the problem is that we live in a world where people believe that celebrity equates to talent (as opposed to talent leads to celebrity). So, the goal of the music and motion picture industry is to create celebrity, not to find talent. | |
|  |  |   Camelot One Premium,MVM join:2001-11-21 Austin, TX clubs:
·VoicePulse
| Re: The Real Crisis Obviously in the case of music, that "goal" isn't working, or their sales wouldn't be in the toilet.
Britney is extremely popular in the 10-14 year old girl group, but that group is entirely unemployed. -- Intel Quad Core QX6700 @3500Mhz/Asus P5N32-E SLI/4x 1024Mb Corsair/Seagate 750.10/PNY 7800GTs SLI/Silverstone 850W/Custom water cooler | |
|  |  |  |   sbrook Premium,Mod join:2001-12-14 H0H 0H0
·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host: Rogers Bell Sympatico
| Re: The Real Crisis Parents would buy that stuff for their kids in the years gone by, but I think they're getting more particular in what they'll buy them now after seeing what the industry's creating.
But none of the AA's strategies are working too well, except scare and sue the crap out of people and keep the monies for themselves. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Camelot One Premium,MVM join:2001-11-21 Austin, TX clubs:
·VoicePulse
| Re: The Real Crisis Still a group of unemployed - non money spending people. Even if they are 14 going on 50. -- Intel Quad Core QX6700 @3500Mhz/Asus P5N32-E SLI/4x 1024Mb Corsair/Seagate 750.10/PNY 7800GTs SLI/Silverstone 850W/Custom water cooler | |
|  |  |  |  |  |   sbrook Premium,Mod join:2001-12-14 H0H 0H0 | Re: The Real Crisis Don't believe they don't spend money. They get ALLOWANCES, and some of them get pretty hefty allowances too! The sure as hell beat my 50c! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  Kearnstd Elf Wizard
join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ
| Re: The Real Crisis said by sbrook :Don't believe they don't spend money. They get ALLOWANCES, and some of them get pretty hefty allowances too! The sure as hell beat my 50c! and boys in the low teens could also be starting to mow lawns. i did that in the 13-16 age group, best of all its tax free income. -- [65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
|  |   DOStradamus MVM join:2003-11-04 Santa Rosa, CA
| And, what did they do to make room for poseurs of this ilk in their catalogues? Take product off the market that I would (and in some cases, have tried in vain to,) BUY.
When they force longtime customers like me to choose between $60.00 at Ebay, $48.00 at GEMM, or "free" at The Pirate Bay (or Demonoid, R.I.P.), they might as well have emailed me the links to a list of websites of that sort; when I found I could not even special order "(CD Title)" at the local shop that I had purchased all of my music for 20 years from, I started searching the web for "(CD Title)", and subsequently, I often could only find what I was lookin for in the land of "trackers, seeders, and leechers".
"Thanks for sending me in that direction, Mr. Cary, and constituents. It's tragically funny to watch you all paint bulls-eyes over your tarsal bones!
-NK | |
|  |  |  |  |  satellite68
join:2007-04-11 Louisville, KY
·Vonage
·Insight Communicat..
| Re: The Real Crisis said by brandon :said by satellite68 : quote: This ... has prompted a crisis in recorded music
No, THIS has: snip Creed made good music, mang. That's like, your opinion, man...  | |
|  |  |  |  |   mb
join:2000-07-23 Washington, NJ | K.I.S.S. Keep the pipe wide open. Penalize the violators. | |
|  |   swhx7 Premium join:2006-07-23 Elbonia
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: K.I.S.S. "pipe wide open. Penalize the violators" would save some cost for the ISPs, because they can't do much else.
This will reiterate previous posts, but the same dumb ideas keep being advanced, and someone has to keep shooting them down.
Practically all content that ever goes thru an internet connection is copyrighted. It would be impossible for an ISP, a filtering company or anyone else to maintain an accurate database of all the billions of copyrighted works, and all the permissions set by all the rights-holders, and how those permissions apply to all the parties on all the internet connections.
Therefore the only thing this "filtering" could possibly amount to would be running everyone's internet traffic through a device that would look for copyrighted works on a short list - presumably the latest hit movies and music that the Hollywood companies are concerned about "protecting". This would invade privacy and invite abuse; would fail to catch infringement of anything except a tiny set of works owned by a few corporations; would be easily evaded by encryption; and probably would slow down everyone's internet.
So what's the point? Choose one: (a) An irrational manifestation of a control-freak mentality in an industry desperate to keep its prices artificially high; (b) a pretext for setting up an infrastructure for censorship of all internet communications; (c) ??? | |
|  |  |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY
| Re: K.I.S.S. Make it mandatory to obtain a license to encrypt, ISPs can change IP and TCP and claim all OSI layers must be visble for "optimization", and declare it as internet protocol, protocol says you can't encrypt without a X.509 Certificate Issued by US Govt/NSA/Verisign. They already prevented encryption from leaving this country as "weapons", im sure they can re-illegalize it. Just claim terrorists and child porn producers use it to fight America. When is the "secret internet" that runs through stenagraphy going to start? | |
|  |  |  |  lordofwhee
join:2007-10-21 Everett, WA | Re: K.I.S.S. What's to stop people from simply sending encrypted packets masquerading as, say, a ping? Sure, it looks suspicious, but the RIAA hasn't turned the US into a police state, yet. | |
|   gaforces United We Stand, Divided We Fall
join:2002-04-07 Santa Cruz, CA
·Cruzio Internet
edit: January 24th, @10:38AM
| It's not the ISP's responsibility I want my ISP to keep me online at the rate I'm paying for, not to be my babysitter. It's a law enforcement issue, not something a communications company should have to deal with.
It's not up to ATT to decide what I can, or can't see on the internet. And it's definitely not in their customers interest to use filtering as a crutch to artificially prop up their antient copper network. You don't let the fox guard the chicken coop.
Look out riaa and mpaa, here comes MIT, and I hope the other colleges get in on the lawsuits too. Consequences  -- Do ye, quieting in your bosoms your strong hearts, Who of many good things have had your fill even to surfeit, With what is moderate nourish your mighty desire; for neither will We yield, nor shall you have all else as you wish. Solon | |
|  |  cornelius785
join:2006-10-26 Worcester, MA
| Re: It's not the ISP's responsibility i agree with that. let the police do their policing. the only thing ISPs should be doing is not turning a blind eye and cooperate with the appropiate authorities (being some police organization, or even the FBI), not the new mafia (riaa and mpaa), as i like to call them. | |
|  |  Kearnstd Elf Wizard
join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ
| i agree they shouldnt even comply with DMCA notices that are not issued by a federal or local(as in local to the state of the claimed infringement) court. atleast with a court involved they in theory have to provide some proof. -- [65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
|  dcurrey
join:2004-06-29 | Not RoadRunner I don't see RR adding this type of filters to prevent illegal copying of movies. With the new billing by the byte the more you steal they more they make. | |
|   aboutime
@comcast.net | Filters are good Then when someone is caught Pirating they can't deny their crimes. | |
|  |  See 18 replies to this post | |
  Transmaster Onward Through The Fog
join:2001-06-20 Cheyenne, WY
| Talking out of their Ass 80% whom ever said this must be the person who lit off the bottlepopper rocket stuck in his asshole.
I use bit-torrent, and the only thing I am interested in is English documentary TV, stuff that is not shown in this country at all, The BBC's The Stars and Night, Channel4's Time Team. etc. Music phooey, I have almost 2 TB's I have most everything I want to listen to. I add to it from independent, mostly New Age artists I support and enjoy.
The MPAA, and the RIAA have a long row to hoe. Such downloading as they are flatuatling about fuels the sales of gigantic hard drives, cheaper and ever larger flash drives, Ipod, and other portable MP3 players, faster computers, demands for higher and higher broadband speeds. etc, etc, and on and on. All of these industries are not going to be happy if anybody does anything that would stifle these sales. I remember somebody asking a Sony executive who worked in the computer division. He was asked what he thought of the fact his computers where being used to rip off the Sony Music division. His answer was; It is not our problem if the Music division can't get their heads out of their asses. Nuff said. -- Eat pork chops for Allah! | |
|   Davebo_
join:2002-11-19 Canada | O rly? AT&T are an ISP?
I thought they were a branch of the NSA - when did they become an ISP?  | |
|  jaminus
join:2004-10-14 Arlington, VA
| Safe Harbor, Encryption Under DMCA Safe Harbor provisions, there is no legal reason (yet?) for ISPs to act as copyright police. They simply have to follow DMCA take-down requests and comply with subpoenas.
The prospect of widespread filtering by ISPs might actually be a good thing. Why? It will push more users towards encryption and tunneling. The more obscure network traffic becomes, the more difficult for ISPs to shape and characterize data. Application layers should be obfuscated to mimic SSL/SSH/VPN traffic, so no ISP can distinguish the corporate telecommuter from the copyright infringer, or the law-abiding citizen who values his privacy. Unless AT&T wants to start man-in-the-middle attacks, which is expensive and not difficult to get around, good encryption and mimicry can overcome all known measures of network management at the moment. | |
|  |  patcat88
join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY
| Re: Safe Harbor, Encryption said by jaminus :Under DMCA Safe Harbor provisions, there is no legal reason (yet?) for ISPs to act as copyright police. They simply have to follow DMCA take-down requests and comply with subpoenas. The prospect of widespread filtering by ISPs might actually be a good thing. Why? It will push more users towards encryption and tunneling. The more obscure network traffic becomes, the more difficult for ISPs to shape and characterize data. Application layers should be obfuscated to mimic SSL/SSH/VPN traffic, so no ISP can distinguish the corporate telecommuter from the copyright infringer, or the law-abiding citizen who values his privacy. Unless AT&T wants to start man-in-the-middle attacks, which is expensive and not difficult to get around, good encryption and mimicry can overcome all known measures of network management at the moment. AT&T can demand the keys, well, if your a telecommuter, they will sign a NDA with you promising not to sell your key on Ebay or to telemarketers, of course there will be an exception for legal inquiries (NSA). | |
|  offspring07
join:2008-01-06 Taxis River, NB | Encryption There is always encryption if the ISPs decide to filter their network. | |
|  joker5656
join:2006-06-23 Greenville, SC
·Charter Pipeline
| 20$ Cd's is not what i call a good price 20$ for a CD, i think not. how bout 14$ for a CD and i give u my money instead. Music/movie industry messed up when they wanted to raise the prices almost 50% in the last decade. Cd's can't be that more expensive then a decade ago. this was to be cheaper and better well you greedy bastards are getting whats coming.
As for the ISPs it shouldn't be there job to do it. if they want to do it then its different. but forcing is not. if the industry wants to stop it from piracy let them do it, theres technology out there that they could use at least for awhile anyway. | |
|  |  mAlfunkti0n
join:2003-12-16 Loveland, OH
·BroadVoice
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: 20$ Cd's is not what i call a good price said by joker5656 :20$ for a CD, i think not. how bout 14$ for a CD and i give u my money instead. Music/movie industry messed up when they wanted to raise the prices almost 50% in the last decade. Cd's can't be that more expensive then a decade ago. this was to be cheaper and better well you greedy bastards are getting whats coming. As for the ISPs it shouldn't be there job to do it. if they want to do it then its different. but forcing is not. if the industry wants to stop it from piracy let them do it, theres technology out there that they could use at least for awhile anyway. Not quite sure where you buy your CDs, but $20 is more than I have ever seen.
Best Buy generally has them for $10-14, but that is still too much. Too much considering most artists these days have maybe one or two good songs and the rest is garbage. | |
|  |  wentlanc You Can't Fix Dumb..
join:2003-07-30 Maineville, OH
| I say that $8 - $10 for a CD, and $4 for an MP3 version would be more in the appropriate price range. Make individual songs $.25, and you are about in the right range. Oh, and give me the opportunity to back them up, and rip to CD / MP3 player.
Now I may actually buy some music. Until then, I'm not buying anything at all. CD prices are way too high, and online prices are even worse. Don't try to sell me a lossy version of the same album, where I have to download it, and put it on media, for the same price as the original disc.
CW | |
|  |  Kearnstd Elf Wizard
join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ
| no what really is dumb is store exclusive CDs. such as "so and so's new Album only at bestbuy" guess who someone who wants that music will get it if their area lacks a bestbuy. they can download it. =p -- [65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
|  deadzoned Premium join:2005-04-13 Baton Rouge, LA
·Cox HSI
| This is big folks! This will be a major and defining moment for both consumer rights and the direction the Internet as we know it is heading.
I am of the opinion that this is a bad enough decision on the part of at&t to possibly ruin them completely.
-Financially, it's going to be prohibitively expensive, and I don't really know if they realize this completely.
-Legally, they stand to expose themselves to numerous avenues of litigation.
When you couple this with things that have been said and done by at&t over the past couple of years or so... well, it just seems like a recipe for disaster.
Do they really think that everyone just forgot about what Big Ed said? Do they really think that no one remembers that they are currently being sued many times over for their role in the illegal wiretapping scandal and that they are currently doing everything in their power to lobby congress to let them off the hook and give them retroactive immunity for their actions? Their past actions speak volumes about how much they care about the consumer.
Given all that, the real truth of the matter is that what they are contemplating doing, WILL NEVER, EVER, WORK! What they are talking about doing is impossible, it's not even in the ballpark of feasible even. I make a lot of fun of at&t because of what I see as a lot of bad decisions on their part. This Piracy Filter idea they are considering is ludicrous though. If they do this, I think it's a fatal decision on their part. | |
|  |   whatsmyname_
@telus.net
| Censorship Putting fillers on an ISP would be censorship. If I create something and distribute it via P2P or what ever method, someone will have to determine if it is copyrighted by some one else. That means bigbrother is choosing what someone else receives. I think this is dangerously close to Censorship | |
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