tao
Chaos Impends
Premium
join:2000-12-03
Lansing, MI
| Should MI secede from the union?
Historically, Michigan has ranked among the lowest in the return of Federal tax dollars. This means we Michiganians pay more for the Federal government than the citizens of other states. We get less highway dollars, we have fewer military bases and fewer federal offices.
Given that we cannot muster the return of our money via federal expenditure or investment, how can we count on our Great Lakes being protected?
Given that we cannot keep out Canadian trash, that we secede, we could do so.
We aren't going to get that SS money we paid, either..
We aren't going to get any money for No Child Left Behind and we don't need federally mandated testing to provide our children with an education.
I contend that we simply shift our federal tax burden and keep that money here at home.
I don't pretend to have made a case for Michigan to secede from the United States, but have presented some general thoughts on the matter for your input.
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playing gives purpose to work, and work gives perspective to playing |
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reinacher
Still a Cubs fan
join:2000-11-10
Lake In The Hills, IL | When I lived in the UP, there was always talk that the UP should secede from downstate. |
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LBDSL
Lightning Bolt
VIP
join:2002-01-07
Auburn Hills, MI
| said by reinacher  :
When I lived in the UP, there was always talk that the UP should secede from downstate.
I have always heard talk of MI splitting to become 2 states (UP, and LP)
I don't think leaving the US would be a good thing. I travel, and have places both here in MI, and down in TX. And TX always talks about leaving the US.
No matter what I like 50 states, not 51, nor 49 
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Lightning Bolt Technologies |
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tr6scott
join:2002-03-23
Oxford, MI
 ·AT&T Midwest
| reply to tao
From Union to what? Canada? Or do we defend our own borders?
Tax the rich to pay the poor, It's not a perfect system, but it is the best (so far).
The thing that gets me the most is the highway conditions. I have never seen a worst state, and were the motor city (barely). You need to buy and SUV to drive on the highway around here. |
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tao
Chaos Impends
Premium
join:2000-12-03
Lansing, MI
| I don't think MI should join Canada, just secede from the United States. I don't think the constitution should vary that much from the current US constitution, but the application of of laws and the Bill of Rights would be of our own making.
Freedom from the federalization of America.
Freedom to apply social values as we see fit.
Freedom to apply 100% of gasoline tax revenues to transportation issues, not just 90%.
Freedom to negotiate trade agreements with other countries.
Freedom to protect and preserve our water and the rights thereof.
What do we get for our tax dollars?
Everyone gets the same for SS and Medicare, but what the feds dole out in other ways MI comes up short. Defense spending is 30% of the Federal budget, MI gets:
Army 242
Navy & Marine Corps 1,781
Air Force 113
Coast Guard 555
Active Duty Military 2,136
Reserve and National Guard 7,933
Total Personnel 10,624
Compare:
OHIO
Army 578
Navy & Marine Corps 525
Air Force 6,565
Coast Guard 669
Active Duty Military 7,668
Reserve and National Guard 42,965
Total Personnel 51,302
INDIANA
Army 416
Navy & Marine Corps 411
Air Force 164
Coast Guard 27
Active Duty Military 991
Reserve and National Guard 27,459
Total Personnel 28,477
ILLINOIS
Army 716
Navy & Marine Corps 29,283
Air Force 5,675
Coast Guard 146
Active Duty Military 35,674
Reserve and National Guard 41,117
Total Personnel 76,937
WISCONSIN
Army 294
Navy & Marine Corps 142
Air Force 142
Coast Guard 331
Active Duty Military 909
Reserve and National Guard 24,594
Total Personnel 25,503
And since someone mentioned Texas:
Army 60,945
Navy & Marine Corps 6,909
Air Force 40,981
Coast Guard 1,409
Active Duty Military 108,835
Reserve and National Guard 84,721
Total Personnel 194,965
The Coast Guard numbers are interesting, since MI has more coastline miles than any state but Alaska. Why would Ohio have more Coast Guard officers than MI, and why would TX have almost 3x more?
As to transportation, in the proposed transportation bill in Congress, MI is set to receive a billion dollars less over the next six years than Georgia, a state extremely close to MI in land area and existing highway miles.
Here is a link to a GAO report on the ratio of return on investment for state funding of the Federal Highway Trust:
»www.gao.gov/special.pubs/gao-03-···ht1.html
Overall Federal spending shows MI and the surrounding states to be tax exporters and Michigan ranks 44th on return of investment in Federal tax dollars according to: »www.taxfoundation.org/pr-fedtaxs···tio.html . In the year 2000, Michiganians saw $0.81 for each dollar sent to Washington. The state with the highest return on investment was New Mexico which received $2.03 for every dollar sent to Washington.
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playing gives purpose to work, and work gives perspective to playing |
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cmhbob
Did...Did I Do That?
Premium
join:2001-03-13
Grove City, OH
clubs: | reply to tao
If you're looking for someplace better, try »www.freestateproject.org.
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J D McDorce
Premium
join:2001-12-29
Westland, MI | reply to tao
Sounds to me like our Congresscritters are ineffective in bringing our share of the money home. |
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Fobulous
Premium
join:2002-08-14
Missouri City, TX
clubs:
 ·Comcast
| reply to tao
If one state that can Secede it would be Texas!
but in all seriousness..i have been to MI many times on business especially the Detroit area...and to be honest..it sure has some serious work ahead of her. and let's just put it like that.
I have also been to Ann Arbor (nice town!). |
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loserhead
3 Billion Chinese People Can Be Wrong
join:2004-01-01
Ellijay, GA | reply to tao
maybe i should just secede and start my own country. i'll call it aaronia and elect myself king. haha
--AA-- |
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bewale
Killemall
Premium
join:2000-08-08
Royal Oak, MI
clubs: | Fobulous: Work for EDS, eh? Supporting GM?
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"In a world of compromise, some don't." |
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minidu
Premium
join:2002-09-28
Mackinac Island, MI
| reply to tao
While it has some very good sounding points to it, there would be a few drawbacks.
More realisticly, lets get some good people on our congress from MI. Instead of these douchbags we've been sending.
I've been thinking of running on the next election myself because I'm fed up with the crap that happens.
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Experience -- a great teacher, but the tutition fees... . BOFH |
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tao
Chaos Impends
Premium
join:2000-12-03
Lansing, MI
| Part of the problem, regardless of character, is senority on the House and Senate committees. Part of the effectiveness is being aligned with the majority party, MI has had two Democratic Senators forever; plus, our Senators have never had national political clout. Carl Levin is the ranking member of the Armed Services Committee and you see above how MI ranks in Armed Services manpower... I don't think fresh blood will help, unless we have a "Mark Racicot" somewhere in MI.
Interesting article here: »www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index···1030.xml
And Senate committee assignments are found here: »www.senate.gov/pagelayout/commit···home.htm
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playing gives purpose to work, and work gives perspective to playing |
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J D McDorce
Premium
join:2001-12-29
Westland, MI
| said by tao :
MI has had two Democratic Senators forever;
That depends on how one defines "forever". Spencer Abraham was the most recent Michigan Senator from the other side of the aisle. From there, one would have to go back to Robert Griffin in the '70s. |
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tao
Chaos Impends
Premium
join:2000-12-03
Lansing, MI
| Well, please excuse that I forgot Spence. Notably, our MI son who is now heads the Department of Energy, may, or may not, deliver the Rare Isotope Accelerator. He has stated that he will stay, politically, above the fray in the location decision. Interestingly, the competition is between the Argonne National Lab and MSU, with the head of an existing similar project at Argonne having strong MSU ties.
Anyway, thanks for the correction.
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playing gives purpose to work, and work gives perspective to playing |
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L Campanazo
join:2003-12-15 | reply to tao
We got too much water to be let go... Should we separate we'd be invaded soon thereafter... |
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Fobulous
Premium
join:2002-08-14
Missouri City, TX
clubs:
·Comcast
1 edit | reply to bewale
said by bewale :
Fobulous: Work for EDS, eh? Supporting GM?
You bet! i wish i work for EDS tho.. |
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cypres
join:2003-11-28
Carol Stream, IL | reply to tao
I wouldnt mind seeing MI out of the union. They are right up there with Delaware. |
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tao
Chaos Impends
Premium
join:2000-12-03
Lansing, MI
| reply to tao
»www.detnews.com/2004/business/04···1701.htm
In the above article, the head of Allstate complains that having to submit to the constitutional rights of each state adds too much cost to insurance. He proposes that auto insurance regulations be controlled by the Federal government.
Auto insurers in MI, already get a huge break by having their expenses for personal injury claims capped at 300k, with a state fund established to cover the rest.
Auto insurers in MI already get to write their own regulations and have them, essentially, rubber-stamped by the MI Insurance Commission.
Which brings to mind that MI insurance customers already get screwed by paying for large out-of-state claims like hurricanes, earthquakes, and acts of terrorism. Remember how insurance costs jumped after that hurricane leveled Dade County, in Florida, back in the 1990s?
As a separate nation, we could force insurers to indemnify Michiganians based solely on the cost of doing business in Michigan alone.
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playing gives purpose to work, and work gives perspective to playing |
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J D McDorce
Premium
join:2001-12-29
Westland, MI
| I would tend to view insurance in Michigan as being a reason not to secede from the union - the manner in which Michiganians are bent over by the insurance companies is a result of the (lack of) control exercised by Lansing over the insurance industry in this state. If Michigan cannot manage the insurance industry, why would we think that Michigan could effectively manage all of the other things that a "nation" faces? |
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tao
Chaos Impends
Premium
join:2000-12-03
Lansing, MI
| With all due respect, you have the issue sideways. This is partly my fault, I am sorry.
To my knowledge, the Insurance Commission in each state is tasked with assuring the public interest is served by reviewing insurance company offerings and policies for adherence to state law. -- this is what I call rubber stamping.
The larger point of my post was to describe that IF the insurance companies have their way, MI law will not matter anymore. That we would secede would assure that insurance companies continue to find Michigan law important.
Further, my personal idea of a nation of Michigan is drawn directly from unfunded federal mandates and policy which usurps the rights of the various states as described in the US Constitution.
Many realities have changed since Michigan agreed to join the union of states. I believe it is time to review the benefits of that union as it specifically pertains to the interests of Michigan citizens.
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playing gives purpose to work, and work gives perspective to playing |
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