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TeMerc
join:2004-01-22
Phoenix, AZ
| reply to storm64007
Re: WARNING: AOL's Instant Messenger installs spyware
OK, BOTH Spybot S&D AND AdAware now read WildTangent as spyware,AdAware just added it the other nite.
»netrn.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=277
So much for your theory. One of the primary reasons it is now detected by AdAWare is the level of difficulty to remove, and the fact that no where in its EULA, is it mentioned that AOL is installing it. And SpySweeper, also considers WildTangent to be spyware, as does Pest Patrol. Geee, that about covers the most popular anti spy apps around, wouldn't you say?
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Remember............You can NEVER be OVERPROTECTED!! | |
DSL_Steve
Premium
join:2003-11-28
Woodbury, CT
1 edit | reply to storm64007
said by storm64007  :
I dont agree that wild tangent or veiwpoint is true spy ware either...it is the reason why some adaware scanners(ad-aware being one of them) dont include both WT and Veiwpoint in their spy ware definitions.
Ad-aware put WildTangent back in their latest update.
»Ad-aware really detects WildTangent now! | |
Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
| reply to MOSFET
Re: WARNING: AOL's Instant Messenger installs spyw
But that still doesn't mean that Viewpoint Player is spyware. You guys keep lumping the two together and you shouldn't do that. I have Viewpoint Player on all three of my browsers. I do NOT have Wildtangent...but then I am not so naive as to use AIM and think AOL would never try to track me or give me ads, etc. AIM is free and AOL has to recoup somehow. So, just don't use AIM, you won't get Wild Tangent. (I also don't use Hotmail or Yahoo ...anything at Yahoo because of the same reasons).
--
"Everything can be taken from a man or woman but one thing: the last of the human freedoms - to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's destiny." Victor Frankl - Man's Search for Meaning | |
keith2468
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-03
Winnipeg, MB
| reply to MOSFET
Re: WARNING: AOL's Instant Messenger installs spyware
From Richtig's link (thanks Richtig) »www.kephyr.com/spywarescanner/li···ex.phtml
I the most relevant part I find is
quote:
The Viewpoint Media Player will soon be capable of tracking information about the content it displays and how the user interacts with it. When the Viewpoint Media Player displays Viewpoint content, it tracks the URL it is served from, as well as Viewpoint file data tagged by the author in XML. This data can include, but is not limited to: the names of objects and textures displayed, and the names of animations invoked.
To me that sounds like it is tracking when it works and when it doesn't, and that the specific files (objects and textures) being used by it work or don't, and when they don't, it is providing debugging info.
And when it isn't being actively used, it isn't tracking anything.
So *to me*, for an ordinary home computer, for the average person, if what they say is true, and a packet sniffer would reveal if it weren't, that sounds okay.
That said, I'd agree with Ad-aware reporting it while researching it, maybe labelling it "suspicious" or "under investigation" or something like that, and eventually maybe "tracks its own use".
But if they want to lump it in with keystroke loggers, I don't agree with that.
My current personal definition of "trackingware" is that it tracks you where you surf, no matter if you are actively using it or not, including if it is tracking you to provide you more relevent content (e.g. stuff on topics you've been searching on).
My current personal definition of "spyware" is that it gathers passwords, or collects information on unrelated software on your computer (I can see detecting the OS version and browser version), or collects information on your surfing and connects that with your name.
I think we need better definitions so that we can better communicate the level of exposure different sorts of software expose us to. | |
mastermind278
Premium
join:2001-07-12
Newark, NJ
clubs:  
 ·Optimum Voice
 ·Optimum Online
| reply to MOSFET
Okay, I think I might have found out something interesting. When I installed AIM 5.5, my firewall asked if I allowed AIM WD to connect to the internet, and it gave me an IP address,64.125.97.74. After doing a tracert, I cam up with this "Tracing route to aiminstaller.wildtangent.com [64.125.97.74]" I think it trys to install Wild Tangent after AIM is installed on the computer. Of course I told the firewall to not allow it to access the internet.
--
Mastermind 4 Life ® ™ © | |
NeoGeo64
Premium
join:2001-09-22
Leesburg, GA | AOL is spyware? Never! lol
I use AIM 5.2.3292 and I'm never upgrading. | |
reub2000
Premium
join:2001-12-28
Evanston, IL | reply to MOSFET
Re: WARNING: AOL's Instant Messenger installs spyw
Just use GAIM. No spyware! | |
antdude
A Ninja Ant
Premium,VIP
join:2001-03-25
|  said by reub2000 :
Just use GAIM. No spyware!
Trillian (»www.trillian.cc)! | |
Doctor Four
My other vehicle is a TARDIS
Premium
join:2000-09-05
Dallas, TX | reply to game player
Windows Media Player is targeted by Ad Aware. It is
the GUID that it transmits by default (but can be turned off)
that Ad Aware is detecting. | |
JudahH
@rr.com
| reply to reub2000
I'm a developer who likes to write WildTangent 3d content in my spare time. I've been using WildTangent for around 4 years now, and it saddens me to see posts proclaiming WildTangent as an evil spyware company. The last year or two WildTangent has taken a helluva lot of flak for privacy concerns, and believe me, the developer community around WildTangent has voiced their concerns and they have been addressed. If you don't believe me, plese see the following posts from the WildTangent developer forums
»devforum.wildtangent.com/cgi-bin···=6;t=88;
»devforum.wildtangent.com/cgi-bin···=7;t=28;
»devforum.wildtangent.com/cgi-bin···=6;t=200
»devforum.wildtangent.com/cgi-bin···6;t=187;
Now, I would like to address you guys who aren't so familiar with WildTangent. Let me first say I'm just a guy like you all that is concerned with privacy. I fucking hate spyware. Period. If I believed WildTangent was spyware, I sure as hell wouldn't be defending them here.
That said, I'm going to address the points of spyware as described by the FAC doc you posted. Please take a little time to read these and discover the truth for yourselves. If you think I'm wrong on any point, let me know and we can look it up.
Determining factors:
Provides no uninstaller at all or non-functional application uninstaller.
WildTangent can be uninstalled in Add/Remove programs like any other standard Windows program. The uninstaller won't give you any shit about it either.
Lacks clear evidence of intention. In other words, there is no available evidence to suspect the application's developer of intentionally making his/her software difficult to uninstall other than having a poorly coded or buggy uninstaller.
Like the previous answer, the uninstaller works fine, is accessible from the Add/Remove programs dialog, standard functionality for any Windows app.
(Integration): Can cause system instability and is worth two points.
Determining factors:
This category is self-explanatory and refers only to the effect a given database candidate has on a user's system.
WildTangent's 3d driver hasn't causes any known instabilities. I've been running it for over a year on my machine without problems.
(Distribution): Unsolicited Install and is given two points.
Determining factors:
Intentionally hidden (stealth) install and/or clear evidence of Intention. The application is designed with the clear intention of either making it difficult or impossible to remove using normal removal procedures.
Normal removal procedures apply (as mentioned previously) and when playing a WildTangent game for the first time, the software is clear about what it's used for (rendering DirectX content in a web browser), and the privacy information is immediately viewable before the install ever takes place.
Bundled install that is undisclosed. This is different from number one in that it may contain an uninstaller, but there was no notice given to the user pre-install and/or the host application's EULA (End User License Agreement) attempts to hide the application's inclusion as a condition of the host application's install and/or use.
The WildTangent 3d engine is installed standalone normally. In some cases, like with AIM, AIM bundles the engine with their software. However, this is a separate WildTangent engine; most of their software (including their GameChannel) don't get installed with AIM.
Program does not disclose info in EULA, has a confusing EULA, or a hidden EULA listing what is done with collected information.
Nope, the EULA is a must-read before install, as is the privacy information.
(Behavior): Malware is given three points automatically regardless of the stated behaviors. All other intentional behaviors are given three points.
Determining factors:
Virus or Trojan Horse
We all agree it's not a virus or trojan.
Connects to perform or aid in a DDoS (Dedicated Denial of Service) attack.
Again, this sort of thing doesn't apply, we all agree here.
Program masks as doing one thing, but does another.
Nope, their driver runs 3d games in a web browser. Their auto-upgrade mechanism will automatically get the latest version of their software. It's not doing anything secret, it's certainly not stealing personal information.
Use or creation of Tracking Cookies.
I'm not sure, they might use cookies. Then again, so google, yahoo, NYT, and just about every other website including broadbandreports.com 
Changes browsing results (browser hijack/redirect, replace text/graphics, opens random websites)
No browser hijacking, it doesn't change your homepage, etc.
Operates in stealth (Runs hidden from the user).
The WildTangent driver runs only when 3d content is run in a browser. Their auto-upgrade software runs as a service, but can be disabled in the control panel if that freaks you out. (FYI, the auto-upgrade software never collects browsing habits, websites visited, etc.)
Opens web sites not initiated by the user/unsolicited popups and/or requests to join a different site.
Nope.
Auto-updates without user permission and/or knowledge.
As mentioned before, they have an auto-upgrade service (as does SpyBot and some of the other Spyware-stopping apps out there, not to mention Windows itself), but it can be disabled from the control panel if that bothers you.
Dials an unprompted or unauthorized Internet connection.
Nope.
Opens or Exploits a System Vulnerability.
Notta.
(Privacy): Privacy Violations are worth two points.
Determining factors:
Connects to a remote system with or without the user's awareness to transmit usage statistics and/or personally identifiable information.
When you play a WildTangent game, it will tell WildTangent you've played the game. It might tell WildTangent that you're still running on a TNT video card (God forbid) but big shit, they'd like to know if your hardware is up to the task of displaying 3d content. It WON'T tell them your name, your credit card #, the web sites you visit, etc.
Connects to a remote system without the user's awareness to transmit/receive information
No, although the auto-upgrader might check if you've got the latest version of their 3d engine. If that scares you, disable it.
Tracks the user's surfing habits.
Nope again.
That's it. Honestly, if these anti-spyware companies would actually do some research into WildTangent, they would see that it isn't spyware. WildTangent still has some things I'd like them to address (such as an option not to install their auto-upgrade service during install, or an option to not install their obtrusive GameChannel software, both of which can be disabled or uninstalled, still the point remains), however, they do listen to their users and I'm certain those areas will be addressed soon.
There are real spyware threats out there, but WildTangent is not one of them. I hope I've convinced you the same. | |
TeMerc
join:2004-01-22
Phoenix, AZ
| OK, heres my problems with a few of the things you said:
[[[Provides no uninstaller at all or non-functional application uninstaller.
WildTangent can be uninstalled in Add/Remove programs like any other standard Windows program. The uninstaller won't give you any shit about it either.]]]
Wrong, you CANNOT remove WildTangent Control Panel, located in the 'Other Control Panel Options' section of the control panel. You have to do a file/folder search fo it to do that.
[[[Program does not disclose info in EULA, has a confusing EULA, or a hidden EULA listing what is done with collected information.
Nope, the EULA is a must-read before install, as is the privacy information.]]]
OK, the AOL IM EULA, DID NOT mention anything about 'extra' add ons.
[[Auto-updates without user permission and/or knowledge.
As mentioned before, they have an auto-upgrade service (as does SpyBot and some of the other Spyware-stopping apps out there, not to mention Windows itself), but it can be disabled from the control panel if that bothers you.]]]
This auto update is turned on by default, not as a 'service'. And, BTW, Spybots auto updater, is turned OFF by default.
So, IMHO, I WILL NOT ever let ANYTHING that says WILDTANGENT installed on my pc.
And to validate what I said about the problem removing the control panel, read thru these 2 threads, and see , for yourself, the problems people have had:
»Wild Tangent in new AOL IM ver. 5.5
»AOL/WildTangent/ViewPoint Media Player
--
Remember............You can NEVER be OVERPROTECTED!! | |
JudahH
@rr.com
| You only addressed 2 of my points, and you're wrong about both.
Wrong, you CANNOT remove WildTangent Control Panel, located in the 'Other Control Panel Options' section of the control panel. You have to do a file/folder search fo it to do that.
Uninstall "WildTangent Updater" from the Add/Remove programs and the WT control panel icon will be gone. To confirm this, I just tried it on my system. Add/Remove WildTangent Updater, and you're set...and it still didn't give me any shit about it.
This auto update is turned on by default, not as a 'service'. And, BTW, Spybots auto updater, is turned OFF by default.
So what? It's an auto-upgrader, not a spying tool.
Look at Spybot's description of WildTangent.
»www.safer-networking.org/index.p···tail=234
It says it'll upload your hardware configuration to WildTangent. Big shit! They need to know if your hardware can handle 3d content. Jesus Christ, is that a crime? It's spyware because it needs to know if you're running a high-end video card? I call bull shit.
The only reason WildTangent is targeted by companies like Spybot and AdAware is pure competition: "Super Spy Stopper 8.0 stops programs X, Y, and Z! Oh wait, Jesus Christ look at this, this other program blocks programs X, Y, Z, and W! It must be better."
Yeah, well, for the rest of the level-headed world, we know MSPaint isn't spyware. We know Internet Explorer doesn't report our usage statistics. I, for one, know that WildTangent doesn't steal my personal information. You, on the other hand, seem to be spreading nothing but fear, uncertainty, and doubt, when in fact there is a clear answer that I've already shown to you, but you refused to believe it.
Suit yourself if you want to remove WildTangent from your machine, it's your computer. Just don't spread lies about it and call it spyware when I've already shown you the contrary. | |
t43wewtr
@66.36.x.x | reply to MOSFET
JudahH: YOU ARE 100% CORRECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | |
TeMerc
join:2004-01-22
Phoenix, AZ
| reply to MOSFET
Re: WARNING: AOL's Instant Messenger installs spyware
Well, for one, I wasn't intending on counterpointing ALL of your points.
Secondly, it DID NOT, uninstall the WildTangent Control Panel, on my machine. I did a manual search for it, was unable to find it, but, over the following week or so, I happened to run a free scan over at PestPatrol, it DID find it, removed it, and....viola'! WildTangent Control panel was gone. No reason for me to lie about it.
Apparently you didn't read the other posts, where so many others had the SAME PROBLEM with removal.
My biggest point to all of this, was NOTHING was mentioned in the EULA, but, I guess you overlooked that as well as saying I didn't address all of your points.
And as far as competition among spyware companies, well, I guess that's how they determine it, yeah, I'm sure of it. Its all a big ego thing, I can hear the calls now, between Spybot S&D R&D departments and AdAware...."Nyah nyah, we detect it an you don't'. Gimmie a break pal. Your only not blasting it, cuz you work for them, or with them. I'll stick with my original assesments, regarding anything thats installed without my consent.
You can go on an say how great it all is, but it seems to me, here, and in about 5-6 other anti spyware forums, your in the rather miniscule minority.
And, so, you have NOT shown me, it IS NOT spyware.
And Rhino, I'm not gonna even reply to your rude statements, with profanities and all. Where as you may well be above my intelligence level on tecno babble, I don't go call people profane names for no apparent reason, other than a different opinon(which, btw, is more in line with the rest of the pc people).
Funny how both of you guys are 'anonymous' too, eh?
--
Remember............You can NEVER be OVERPROTECTED!! | |
Alekzander
@uark.edu
| reply to MOSFET
My experience
A family member had asked me to clean up his computer about a year ago, as it had various spyware on it. I prefer to do my own work rather than depending on programs, though I do use them to make sure I didn't miss anything.
The focus here was on removing things that were slowing down his aging computer, or things hindering normal use of the computer, not necessarily spyware. I was looking for unnecessary processes, unneeded modifications to IE (his browser of choice), etc.
Anyway, WildTangent was on his computer, installed with some games his kids had downloaded. How did I detect WT? It had a process running at start-up. Not something I would think necessary for a 3D game engine.
I did the standard 'add/remove programs' thing, and while the WT item did disappear from the list, when I examined the hard drive, I found WT files and folders intact. So the uninstall either did not work or was faulty.
I proceeded with the manual cleanup of the system. I don't recall if there were any registry entires still left over.
Maybe WildTangent has changed, maybe it's acting more quietly, but it was running a process that didn't appear necessary for normal operation, and didn't uninstall correctly for me. | |
JudahH
@rr.com
| Well, for one, I wasn't intending on counterpointing ALL of your points.
Secondly, it DID NOT, uninstall the WildTangent Control Panel, on my machine. I did a manual search for it, was unable to find it, but, over the following week or so, I happened to run a free scan over at PestPatrol, it DID find it, removed it, and....viola'! WildTangent Control panel was gone. No reason for me to lie about it.
That's ok, I wasn't intending on countering all your points either. FYI, uninstalling does indeed work though, I just tested it here. Try it yourself if you don't believe me.
And as far as competition among spyware companies, well, I guess that's how they determine it, yeah, I'm sure of it. Its all a big ego thing, I can hear the calls now, between Spybot S&D R&D departments and AdAware...."Nyah nyah, we detect it an you don't'.
Seems too far fetched eh? See the following link, maybe you'd be surprised to know that Spybot detects other anti-spyware programs as spyware because, you guessed it, the they leech off each other, stealing spyware definition databases just to keep up with the other anti-spyware apps.
»www.safer-networking.org/index.p···tail=287
Yeah, BulletProof stole Spybot's definitions to keep up with them. That's the point I made earlier; when ProgramA detects SpywareXYZ, all the other companies will follow suit.
Gimmie a break pal. Your only not blasting it, cuz you work for them, or with them. I'll stick with my original assesments, regarding anything thats installed without my consent.
As I first mentioned, I'm just a schmo developer who likes to play with WildTangent's 3d engine in my spare time, I work neither with nor for WildTangent. I'm just a guy who knows their technology thoroughly as I've played with it for a few years now.
Yeah, stick to your initial reaction, I'm not here to change that. I'm here to put forth the truth about WildTangent in spite of all the FUD being spread by people like you.
You can go on an say how great it all is, but it seems to me, here, and in about 5-6 other anti spyware forums, your in the rather miniscule minority.
When it comes to the tech world, I am in the minority here because I ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON, being a developer who writes the software. You, being a tech guy, look in from the outside and make judgements and criticisms based on what a program tells you is spyware. However, looking at the big picture, the majority of the public doesn't likely know the very definition of spyware, so we're both in the minority overall.
And, so, you have NOT shown me, it IS NOT spyware.
Ok. Have you deleted MSPaint yet? Hey, while you're at it, go and remove Internet Explorer since Spybot says it's spyware. (here's a shocker: it keeps cookies! and even has a cache of pages you've visited! Ack!) Oh yeah, it'll delete all those other programs that have updaters, including Spybot itself. Hey, Windows updates itself too! Better delete that man, "you can never be too protected", right?
I've proved sufficiently WildTangent is not spyware by listing everything that WildTangent does, cited several sources, matched it against the spyware doc posted earlier in this thread, and clearly showed that WildTangent is a safe, cool product to use. You, OTOH, have done nothing to prove it is spyware, other than point out that other people say it's spyware (of course, those people say that only because Spybot tells them it's spyware heh).
Funny how both of you guys are 'anonymous' too, eh?
The link to this thread was posted in a WildTangent developer forum, so I came here to check it out and offer my insight on the whim. While on the topic of comedy, it's funny how your sig is "you can never be too protected". You sound like someone who would support the Patriot Act...in that case, you'd be in the miniscule minority, especially in the tech world.  </parthian volley> | |
markjclark
join:2000-08-11
clubs: | If it will not let you shut off auto update and and allow it to manually update it should not be installed period.
If it uploads any info period without asking the owner and giving a choice of what to allow before so it's spyware period. | |
TeMerc
join:2004-01-22
Phoenix, AZ
| reply to JudahH
[[......... uninstalling does indeed work though, I just tested it here. Try it yourself if you don't believe me.]]]]
OK, you must not be reading everything. I DID UNINSTALL IT via add/remove, and IT DID NOT REMOVE the control panel for WildTangent, so, I don't have to 'try it myself', because I DID IT ALREADY.
And you apparently HAVE NOT READ the posts of all THE OTHERS who ALSO could not remove it that simply. Guess the your the only 'schmo' developer' who can work that magic.
Seems too far fetched eh?
[[[[[See the following link, maybe you'd be surprised to know that Spybot detects other anti-spyware programs as spyware because, you guessed it, the they leech off each other, stealing spyware definition databases just to keep up with the other anti-spyware apps]]]]]
Then you use an example of a company who STEALS a database for a comparison???Please.
I don't use MS Paint, so, I don't let it have accsess to the internet, by blocking it via my firewall.
Cookies? I have cookie managers for them, don't keep the ones I don't want, from 'trusted' sites, like BBR, I keep em.
Cache of pages? Delete them too, with MRU Blaster.
Windows updater? I Turn it off.I know when the updates come out, I'll go and get em myself. Ditto with Spybot. But then, those are trusted companies, who DON'T install things on your pc without telling you, tho, theres alot of whats buried with MS products, theres certainly enough uproar as to the truth of that.
And if the Patriot Acts helps get rid a few people we don't need in this country, and the downside is some inconveinences, then I'm all for it. BTW, I have been told by many I look like a terrorist. If I get detained here and there for a while, I'll deal with it.
The gov't wants to come and take my pc, cause they think I might be doing something wrong, fine. I have nothing to hide from them.
Its people or companies who sneak things onto my pc, like WildTangent/AOL/Viewpoint that bother me.
But, I'm done bantering back and forth with you about it. You have your opinions, I mine, we'll leave it at that.
--
Remember............You can NEVER be OVERPROTECTED!! | |
Fobulous
Premium
join:2002-08-14
Missouri City, TX
clubs: | reply to MOSFET
Re: WARNING: AOL's Instant Messenger installs spyware
i'm so glad that i'm AIM-free | |
JudahH
@rr.com
| OK, you must not be reading everything. I DID UNINSTALL IT via add/remove, and IT DID NOT REMOVE the control panel for WildTangent, so, I don't have to 'try it myself', because I DID IT ALREADY.
Spybot probably deleted some needed uninstall files then. Try it NOW, try downloading it and uninstalling. You'll see it works fine. Of course, I bet you'll refuse to do this because you're afraid you might be wrong.
If it will not let you shut off auto update and and allow it to manually update it should not be installed period.
Actually, the contrary is true. You can turn off auto-update in the WildTangent control panel. You can also uninstall the updater altogether. Not typical of a spyware company eh? Don't believe me again? Go install it and try it yourself (feel free to uninstall it when you're done).
Then you use an example of a company who STEALS a database for a comparison???Please.
Please what? Please I shouldn't prove you wrong again? Oops just did that for the third time.
I don't use MS Paint, so, I don't let it have accsess to the internet, by blocking it via my firewall.
Cookies? I have cookie managers for them, don't keep the ones I don't want, from 'trusted' sites, like BBR, I keep em.
Cache of pages? Delete them too, with MRU Blaster.
Windows updater? I Turn it off.I know when the updates come out, I'll go and get em myself. Ditto with Spybot.
Holy hell you're paranoid! I hate spyware. But this is fucking crazy man - hahah MS Paint isn't a spyware program! It's just a simple doodling program, just like WildTangent is just a 3d driver. But no, you're blinded in your paranoia. Please tell me you don't believe MS Paint is a spyware program, because that's just hilarious.
And if the Patriot Acts helps get rid a few people we don't need in this country, and the downside is some inconveinences, then I'm all for it. BTW, I have been told by many I look like a terrorist. If I get detained here and there for a while, I'll deal with it.
The gov't wants to come and take my pc, cause they think I might be doing something wrong, fine. I have nothing to hide from them.
You're ok with the government confiscating your PC and detaining you?! Ha! I know you're type, you're the kind that would give up liberty for security...wait let me guess, you're voting for Bush in November. How typical. Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty.
Before this argument is ended, tell me this: since both the Windows Program Compatability Wizard and Microsoft Word are labeled as spwyare, do you not use them and prevent them from accessing the internet? | |
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