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Camelot One
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Sarasota, FL
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reply to NewLife
Re: Are they even able to do that?

said by NewLife See Profile:
Yes they can do that because of the simple fact that downloading their code is not legal. Its proprietary, copyrighted code that has been illegally leaked to the internet and downloading it is illegal to.
Do you by change have any links to the laws on this? I thought the issue of illegally shared material applied specifically to video's protected under a law written just for that purpose. Using your thinking, downloading music would be a crime, and we all know it isn't.
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NewLife
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said by Camelot One See Profile:
Do you by change have any links to the laws on this? I thought the issue of illegally shared material applied specifically to video's protected under a law written just for that purpose. Using your thinking, downloading music would be a crime, and we all know it isn't.

No I do not have any links concerning this but with the FBI involved looking for who leaked the code and things of that nature I would definitely be thankful that MS is warning users. I bet that somewhere in the great book of laws there is a law that covers this type of thing but its probably buried under alot of dust.
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AthlGrond
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reply to Camelot One
said by Camelot One See Profile:
Using your thinking, downloading music would be a crime, and we all know it isn't.
LOL

Good one!
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Jacek

@198.208.x.x


from:
tomkb See Profile

reply to Camelot One
I don't think so.

First: the message says "aroud the world" which already assumes, that all countries have the same law. That is of course nonsense as DVD Jon already proved. I wouldn't be surprised if North Korea would ignore US copyright.

Second: copryighted doesn't mean secret. Copyrighted means, one cannot use the software without license. I don't think it prevents reading the code. If this would be the case, it would make illegal to read fragments of the book in a bookstore before buying one.

JM


Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA

reply to Camelot One
said by Camelot One See Profile:
Using your thinking, downloading music would be a crime, and we all know it isn't.
Downloading music is a crime. It's just a lot harder to prove that you downloaded music than it is to prove that you uploaded music. (And it's next to impossible to tell that you downloaded more than one music file.) That's why the RIAA is going after uploaders. (Plus, if they take out/scare away enough uploaders, there won't be anything for the downloaders to download.)
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tomkb
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reply to Jacek
said by Jacek:
I don't think so.
Second: copryighted doesn't mean secret. Copyrighted means, one cannot use the software without license. I don't think it prevents reading the code. If this would be the case, it would make illegal to read fragments of the book in a bookstore before buying one.

JM

That's an interesting way to look at it.


Sarick
It's Only Logical
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1 edit
reply to Jason Levine
said by Jason Levine See Profile:

Downloading music is a crime. It's just a lot harder to prove that you downloaded music than it is to prove that you uploaded music. (And it's next to impossible to tell that you downloaded more than one music file.) That's why the RIAA is going after uploaders. (Plus, if they take out/scare away enough uploaders, there won't be anything for the downloaders to download.)

Downloading music IS NOT A CRIME..

WHY..

Downloading Copyrighted music without a license is ILLEGAL.

I download music all the time, I don't mean copyrighted stuff but public music like those offered to the public FREE.

Also it's not illegal to download from Napster, if you pay $0.99..

Downloading isn't illegal its only illegal if what your downloading is restricted by law.

In some areas of the world there are different or no restrictions placed on a copyright.
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Camelot One
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join:2001-11-21
Sarasota, FL
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Well and again we've gone WAY off topic, from Microsoft back to the RIAA. For the last time, downloading music, even copyrighted music, IS NOT A CRIME! It is not illegal, it is not punishable by death, or any of the other RIAA propaganda. Distributing copyrighted music is a violation of copyright law, punishable in a civil court.

Feel free to prove me wrong by posting a US law that says otherwise.

But back to the topic, does anyone have any legal fact showing it is against the law to download Microsoft's leaked source code? Download- not upload, distrubute, make public, or in any other way share, but that downloading it is a CRIME?
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dave
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reply to Jacek
said by Jacek:
If this would be the case, it would make illegal to read fragments of the book in a bookstore before buying one.
The correct analogy would be if you were to start photocopying the book in the bookstore.

('Fair use' of course would allow small extracts, as long as you could get the bookstore to agree.)


IANAL BIPOOTV

@rit.edu

reply to Camelot One
How about US Code Title 17, Section 106(1)(»www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/106.html)?

Drop this into your pipe: By definition, only the copyright holder may authorize reproduction of the copyrighted work. Before your download of the file there is one copy -- on the uploader's computer. Post download there are two copies. Based solely on your action of requesting the file was a copy made.

Just because you're in a (to steal a reference from down the thread) bookstore with a photo-copier in it, doesn't give you the right to make copies


Now would you please stop your ranting about downloading copyrighted, unauthorized reproductions of music files being legal?


dcgaber

@was-dc.ds

reply to Camelot One
Check the criminal code out (too lazy to provide a link), but once you cross a certain monetary threshold, you are committing a crime. There are civil and criminal remedies.

The code is also protected under trade secret laws. Be aware, in the US, having that code is illegal. Think of it this way, you may say it is not illegal to look at it, but perhaps illegal to copy it. When you have it in your computer, you are making a buffer copy to look at it, that is copying and courts (and legislatures) consider that to be infirngement.


Sarick
It's Only Logical
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join:2003-06-03
USA
·FrontierNet Intern..

reply to Camelot One
I could say yes your right.

The problem with agreeing with that is, even though it's not illegal you can still get sued for doing it.

A Lawsuit can be more than enough to make people tremble in fear.
--
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weebl

@ntli.net
reply to Camelot One
I would have thought, as I already own a copy of their software, that I ought to be able to look at the source code. After all it's just what I own in another form.


dasesq

join:2001-10-07
Long Beach, CA


1 edit
reply to Camelot One
Here are some laws for you....copying appears to be a crime (thus, "copyright")

»caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/···106.html
»caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/···501.html
»caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/···506.html


Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA

reply to Sarick
said by Sarick See Profile:


Downloading music IS NOT A CRIME..

WHY..

Downloading Copyrighted music without a license is ILLEGAL.

You're right. I should have been more specific.

Within the US, downloading copyrighted music without permission from the copyright holder isn't legal.
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Camelot One
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join:2001-11-21
Sarasota, FL
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1 edit
reply to dasesq
While I appreciate both of you posting links to actual law, after reading them, I still see nothing that specifically states that downloading copyrighted music is a crime.

I do however see dcgaber's point about trade secrets in regard to the MS code (the topic of the thread) I think it would be a very tough case to make, but since lawsuits are all about who has more money, they could make it work.


Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA

reply to weebl
said by weebl:
I would have thought, as I already own a copy of their software, that I ought to be able to look at the source code. After all it's just what I own in another form.

You own a license to use the software. That license contains certain provisions. For example, you can't give your copy away to ten of your best friends.

You have no license to the source code. This means you aren't allowed to download it, even just to look at. With Open Source applications, they specifically grant you the right to download and look at the code. If the coders on an Open Source app were to revoke that right and go to a Closed Source model, you wouldn't be able to look at the code for subsequent versions. (Let's ignore for a second just how something would go from Open Source to Closed Source. It's a completely hypothetical example. In the real world it would probably be next to impossible to pull off.)
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AthlGrond
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join:2002-04-25
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1 edit
reply to Camelot One
said by Camelot One See Profile:
I still see nothing that specifically states that downloading copyrighted music is a crime.
You mean you weren't joking? Oh, well...

Take a peek at: »www.copyright.gov/

When you download a song you have made a copy of it, which is prohibited and thus illegal.

said by US Copyright Office:
WHAT IS COPYRIGHT?
Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United States (title 17, U.S. Code) to the authors of "original works of authorship," including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works. This protection is available to both published and unpublished works. Section 106 of the 1976 Copyright Act generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to do and to authorize others to do the following:

To reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords;

To prepare derivative works based upon the work;

To distribute copies or phonorecords of the work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;

To perform the work publicly, in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works;

To display the copyrighted work publicly, in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work; and

In the case of sound recordings, to perform the work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission.

In addition, certain authors of works of visual art have the rights of attribution and integrity as described in section 106A of the 1976 Copyright Act. For further information, request Circular 40, "Copyright Registration for Works of the Visual Arts."

It is illegal for anyone to violate any of the rights provided by the copyright law to the owner of copyright. These rights, however, are not unlimited in scope. Sections 107 through 121 of the 1976 Copyright Act establish limitations on these rights. In some cases, these limitations are specified exemptions from copyright liability. One major limitation is the doctrine of "fair use," which is given a statutory basis in section 107 of the 1976 Copyright Act. In other instances, the limitation takes the form of a "compulsory license" under which certain limited uses of copyrighted works are permitted upon payment of specified royalties and compliance with statutory conditions. For further information about the limitations of any of these rights, consult the copyright law or write to the Copyright Office.
Here is a link to all the exceptions including fair use etc: »www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107

ftzsee
Premium
join:2001-11-22
clubs:
»www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html#506


CoffeeSloth

@65.165.x.x

reply to dcgaber
Trade secret only apply to dealings between corporations., and even then they apply to the person violating the agreements signed as a condition of hiring or between unfair dealings with a country that doesn't recognize our laws. Trade is the key word here.

As for downloading being illegal...check with your lawyer, however, it is copyright violation to distribute without a license, not to receive without a license. And the monetary threshold applies to whether or not it's a felony or a misdemeanor.

It would be illegal to break into a server to grab the code and distribute it, but if they have it on a public FTP site (anonymous login) then no one broke in to get it. I don't know how the code was originally downloaded but the legality of M$ actions with their statement is debate-able.
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