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|  CCCMTech
Premium,VIP,MVM
join:2002-05-17
Pound, VA
| Re: How does SBC stand RE: recent RIAA activity? I'm not sure, but I know according to our privacy policy the only time we will give out info is if we are ordered by a court subpoena or warrant. Just the threat alone we will not disclose your info. Best word of advice. If your concerned about it, don't do it.
--
There is no such thing as a dumb question. Better to ask and get it right, than to guess and mess it up. | |
| | Suzyrain
join:2003-07-13
Bryan, TX
| Re: How does SBC stand RE: recent RIAA activity? What exact information does an ISP log.
Let's say from 1pm to 1:30pm I visit a website/newsgroup etc
called "Joe's Illegal Downloads" (JID). I've heard great things about a band called the DSL All Stars, in particular
their tender ballad "Librarians In Leather". I search around for awhile and finally download that one tune.
What would show up on the ISP log? | |
| | | CCCMTech
Premium,VIP,MVM
join:2002-05-17
Pound, VA
| Re: How does SBC stand RE: recent RIAA activity? generally from what I've heard and seen, simply the ip you had, what time you received it and what time you released it, your login information (failed and passed attempts), traffic in bytes you sent and received. Usually only ISPs or businesses with Proxies monitor the info your worried about. If the government, the business or whatever has a log with ip x.x.x.x and they find it's our IP, they get a subpoena and we have to tell them who had that ip at that time and it narrows it down.
--
Thank you for choosing SBC Internet Services. My name is Rick. How may I help you today? | |
| | | | Suzyrain
join:2003-07-13
Bryan, TX
| Re: How does SBC stand RE: recent RIAA activity? On some comp security group the manager of a privacy service
claimed he "rolled" the logs once a week. In contrast I've
read that in th UK it was becoming law that an isp archive
customer logs for over 5 years. I've only read that once, so I don't really know, but that seems a bit excessive. Does sbc have a universal policy? | |
| 
prosecutor
Do Your Duty--Be A Juror
Premium
join:2002-11-15
Plano, TX
| No offense, but the idea that any legitimate business would not comply with an objectively legal subpoena, warrant, or other process should really bother you. Do you really want drug dealers, mafiosi, and pedophiles to be able to run their businesses with impugnity simply by taking them online? Surely not. Asking SBC (or any online business)to disobey subpoenas, warn alleged criminal subscribers that subpoenas have issued, or look behind subpoenas is asking them to help criminals. Period.
There is room for disagreement on just how big a crime file swapping is. Arguably, downloading a song is about as serious as stealing a candybar from your local Wal-Mart. Yet we allow Wal-Mart to defend itself from candybar stealing by hiring security guards and detaining persons caught shoplifting. If a person is distributing several thousand songs on a server, then how are they any different from a record shop stocked with bootleg CD's? Law enforcement has long been authorized to seize counterfeit merchandise, destroy it, and prosecute the vendors.
The solution to this whole fileswapping debacle is arriving with the newer services selling individual songs at reasonable price points. The solution is not to encourage businesses to assist persons engaged in criminal activity, even of a de minimis nature. If you want free music, listen to the radio. Or buy a piano or guitar. | |
| | 
GPorter
It Always Works Better When It's On
join:2001-03-21
San Antonio, TX
| Re: How does SBC stand RE: recent RIAA activity? said by prosecutor  :
No offense, but the idea that any legitimate business would not comply with an objectively legal subpoena, warrant, or other process should really bother you...
I agree with you wholeheartedly that the RIAA's use of subpoenas is legitimate and aboveboard. However, there is a written contract between the user and SBC, which is called the Terms of Service, that controls SBC's actions with the user's information.
When RIAA presented subpoenas to several colleges in the Northeast, most refused to cooperate because the subpoenas did not allow the schools to comply with what to them was an overriding statute-the higher education equivalent of the Privacy Act of 1974.
The schools had no intention of snubbing the court, they merely required more time than the subpoenas allowed to comply with other statutory requirements.
On the other hand, a number of ISPs have junked their legal responsibilities to their users, and given attorneys with questionable motives every shred of data on users at the mere threat of a subpoena. Don't they know that a subpoena is not a punitive document? Don't they know that it is a discovery tool that strictly limits (in this case) what information is sought? Don't they know that it is much easier to threaten using a subpoena than to actually obtain one? Sheesh!
I expect SBC to maintain the privacy of my user information until and unless presented with a valid subpoena issued by a bench with appropriate jurisdiction, much as the disclaimer for Broadband Reports' log in dictates. That's not too much to ask or expect from such a large company.
--
Glenn-Remembering 9-11-01 "Let's Roll!" | |
| | |
prosecutor
Do Your Duty--Be A Juror
Premium
join:2002-11-15
Plano, TX
| Re: How does SBC stand RE: recent RIAA activity? Time limits are a legitimate consideration. Overbreadth might be another.
Under no circumstances, however, can SBC (or any other internet provider) try to contract around its legal obligations to the court system. In other words, the contract does not, and cannot, matter. Your logic, taken to its extreme, might allow an ISP to contract with persons that it will notify them of the existence of a subpoena. This in turn would allow a pedophile or mafiosi to up and move prior to a legitimate law enforcement action.
Fact is, a number of major market ISP's are starting to limit the length of time they keep data in order to limit their subpoena exposure. This also means, however, that they may be (are) destroying evidence of the worst sort of criminal offenses imaginable.
Fact also is that SBC does require subpoenas for its records in every single case. The record center is here in Dallas. The system is cumbersome and slow, but it works in most cases. The hardest part is finding a real live human being to take responsibility for compliance. | |
| | | |
GPorter
It Always Works Better When It's On
join:2001-03-21
San Antonio, TX
| Re: How does SBC stand RE: recent RIAA activity? said by prosecutor :
Time limits are a legitimate consideration. Overbreadth might be another.
Under no circumstances, however, can SBC (or any other internet provider) try to contract around its legal obligations to the court system. In other words, the contract does not, and cannot, matter. Your logic, taken to its extreme, might allow an ISP to contract with persons that it will notify them of the existence of a subpoena. This in turn would allow a pedophile or mafiosi to up and move prior to a legitimate law enforcement action.
I wouldn't want them to notify the subject of a subpoena. But I would expect them to-as you state elsewhere-require a subpoena before divulging information they have contracted to retain in confidence.
said by prosecutor :
Fact is, a number of major market ISP's are starting to limit the length of time they keep data in order to limit their subpoena exposure. This also means, however, that they may be (are) destroying evidence of the worst sort of criminal offenses imaginable.
From what I've read of these sorts of offenses, the only thing that is lost is the potential for information detailing the length of time the offender has been committing said offenses. On the other hand, maintaining a shorter archive of customer records reduces the number of personnel and amount of storage space needed. I call that a business compromise, not aiding and abetting.
said by prosecutor :
Fact also is that SBC does require subpoenas for its records in every single case. The record center is here in Dallas. The system is cumbersome and slow, but it works in most cases. The hardest part is finding a real live human being to take responsibility for compliance.
Bureaucracies of all sorts have a certain amount of inertia. Obtaining a subpoena is not exactly a speedy process, is it? On the other hand, having access to the actual keeper of records has the effect of deterring the casual (excuse the expression) hack lawyer attempting to intimidate a firm into releasing something that said hack lawyer has no legal right to.
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Glenn-Remembering 9-11-01 "Let's Roll!" | |
| | 
Mortis
Premium
join:2001-12-07
Clearlake, CA
clubs:
 ·AT&T Southwest
 ·Mediacom
| Just my opinion here, but there is a difference, Wal-mart doesn't try to charge you a minimum of $750 per candy bar infringed. Who are these RIAA people hacking into your system? Law enforcement? Do they have a warrant to search your system? No, they are hackers, who now seemed legally endorsed to search private property on behalf of businesses. Be very careful what you wish for...just because something is legal or illegal doesn't make it right or wrong. We all can think of stupid laws that have no weight.
You may laugh, but soon other companies will form RIAA-like consortiums. Soon, perhaps Micro$oft will be continuously scanning and blocking anyone who modifies the "functionality" of Windows, which is a TOS violation. "Sorry, sir, but you owe us $750 for infringing our intellectual rights by disabling our moronic and useless Messenger application." Where does it say in any law that it is okay to destroy someone else's intellectual property by crashing web servers and such on the suspicion of piracy? If so, that would mean it is legal for me to cause a denial of service attack on Microsoft? They stole Windows from Mac and their software is anticompetitive....isn't suspicion enough? How about a bundled antipiracy package placed obligatorily into antivirus software, in order to assure that your system is "legitimate". Do you know that if you change too many of your system components, that Windows XP can arbitrarily decide that you have a "new system" and therefore you need to re-pay for it? As a person who likes to upgrade his computer, I think that it is fair to use my XP OS on one machine at a time. Microsoft thinks that intellectually that one configuration is enough.....who do we want deciding right and wrong in these cases, the greedy corporations or courts of law?
Just my $.02
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Crouching Sniper, Hidden Camper | |
| | | CCCMTech
Premium,VIP,MVM
join:2002-05-17
Pound, VA
| Re: How does SBC stand RE: recent RIAA activity? said by Mortis :
Who are these RIAA people hacking into your system? Law enforcement? Do they have a warrant to search your system? No, they are hackers, who now seemed legally endorsed to search private property on behalf of businesses.
Also keep in mind this eliminates due process of law and violates the constitution which overrides all newer bills.
--
There is no such thing as a dumb question. Better to ask and get it right, than to guess and mess it up. | |
| | |
prosecutor
Do Your Duty--Be A Juror
Premium
join:2002-11-15
Plano, TX
| If the RIAA hacks your server, sue 'em. Get everyone else together and file a class action. The law is on your side, there.
That is a completely different issue from subpoena compliance.
In fact, as part of your lawsuit, the first thing you should do is subpoena RIAA's records regarding their contracts with the persons hacking the system.
[text was edited by author 2003-07-28 14:22:37] | |
| | |
prosecutor
Do Your Duty--Be A Juror
Premium
join:2002-11-15
Plano, TX
| Re: How does SBC stand RE: recent RIAA activity? A legitimate debate, though, don't you think?
To give greater detail to the above post, SBC has always, at least since 1996, required a subpoena for the records I've sought from them.
I sincerely hope that SBC will not notify users suspected of criminal conduct of the existence of the subpoena. That could subject the company and its officers to civil and criminal liability, depending on the circumstances. It could also inform real, live, hard core criminals that law enforcement is closing in. Targets of lawsuits and defendants in criminal investigations have ample means to protect their rights and privacy in court in this country, without limiting the legitimate use of subpoenas and similar instruments.
Again, part of the problem is that the same system is used to prosecute murderers and persons stealing candybars. The solution is to change the consequence of stealing candybars, not screw up the the system used to prosecute murderers and pedophiles.
You also need to remember that the subpoena is a right that every citizen enjoys when they go into court, whether as plaintiff or defendant. Do you want to limit your own ability to defend yourself or obtain redress against another who has injured you or your interests?
[text was edited by author 2003-07-28 14:41:33] | |
| 
kmac1
Off in new directions
Premium,VIP
join:2001-06-07
Port Neches, TX
| For what it's worth:
I would STRONGLY advise any who are using the TARGETED services to CEASE & DESIST, ASAP!
I wish I could elaborate more, but that's all I can say right now.
Once more:
I would STRONGLY advise any who are using the TARGETED services to CEASE & DESIST, ASAP!
And for those that missed the above messages:
I would STRONGLY advise any who are using the TARGETED services to CEASE & DESIST, ASAP!
--
Put your spare CPU cycles to WORK! Join the BBR DC Teams and join in on helping helping find ET or cures for diseases. SETI and Team Helix. Join in on the fun! | |
| | | | | markopoleo
join:2003-04-02
Bonne Terre, MO
·Charter Pipeline
| Re: How does SBC stand RE: recent RIAA activity? Getting a subpoena is NOT the same as getting sued. Period.
You can get subpoena for almost anything, records, etc. Shoot Landlords get them even from lawyers for extensive background checks on possible tenents.
It brings a smile to my face knowing RIAA is spending so much money on them, kinda like payback for the $20 CD for one good song...:D
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If PLC goes mainstream, every other broadband provider will be considered what dialup is today...not broadband. | |
| |
prosecutor
Do Your Duty--Be A Juror
Premium
join:2002-11-15
Plano, TX
| said by icp1 :
I have no problem w/ subpoena's getting info, but isn't there an issue with these RIAA subpoena's that they do not even go through a real judge?
In most places, a clerk issues the subpoena rather than the judge. However, the subpoena request must be signed by an identified member of the public and it must be related to an existing or potential suit. The application typically requires a statement that the subpoena is intended to obtain information material to the suit. It depends upon the jurisdiction. So, a company cannot simply come in and tell the clerk "give me half a dozen blank subpoenas for SBC." If the clerk issues the subpoena without requiring compliance, the clerk would be subject to discipline and or suit. If a given user is ultimately identified and added to the suit, they'll have an opportunity to come in and move to quash or otherwise exclude any evidence recovered.
Don't be fooled, folks. That hack lawyer you're complaining about this week may represent you next week and need to obtain records from SBC about the person who wrecked your car or robbed you or molested your kids. Heck, it might even be the guy representing you in your trespass suit against the RIAA's hackers. The problem isn't subpoenas, its collusion amongst the record companies, artificially high prices, and objectively illegal responses to those inflated prices. But, if everyone focuses on the subpoenas, then you'll end up protecting the bad guys and hurting yourselves. | |
| 
Balzer
Cat Man Dew
join:2000-12-18
Tulsa
·Cox HSI
| They said it has been abused YET, but here it comes anyone can us the DCMA. You don't have to have any proof for what you are going to use the info for. But let someone go and get all some ISPs users info and sell it to another country or use it to kill, rape, or ID theft, and the law will change. Guess what it will happen. And there is nothing no body and do about it at all. The gate has been open. What safe guard is there to stop someone for using the info to do harm? | |
| 
ctp
@dividezero.net | I'll keep using my *REAL* source for getting "stuff" over my sbc dsl. I hope all you Kazaa nubs burn in hell, that stuff is illegal. (*pets ssl/tls ftps you will never see in your wildest dreams). Flame me. I want the attention. I am desperate. | |
| aatucker
join:2000-03-10
Belton, MO
| Very simple - THE LAW IS THE LAW. Go read the COPYRIGHT LAWS and it is easy to understand. Just because you don't get caught stealing (yes it is stealing), doesn't make it right. This is one problem in our society today - not enough enforcement of the law. I don't think any of the real offenders would tolerate this if the shoe was on the other foot.
AT | |
|
TazDev
@twtelecom.net
| Amazing how some people justify criminal activity. You wouldn't expect SBC to withhold information if bank robbers were using their network to plan heists. No reason for SBC to withhold information when people are stealing copyrighted music.
It's about time the RIAA started playing hardball, and it's good to know SBC will cooperate in their efforts to stop illegal file sharing. | |
| | 
icp1
Premium
join:2000-10-13
Saint Louis, MO
clubs:
·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: How does SBC stand RE: recent RIAA activity? said by TazDev:
Amazing how some people justify criminal activity. You wouldn't expect SBC to withhold information if bank robbers were using their network to plan heists. No reason for SBC to withhold information when people are stealing copyrighted music.
It's about time the RIAA started playing hardball, and it's good to know SBC will cooperate in their efforts to stop illegal file sharing.
That's sort of what this debate is about...as far as I know the RIAA can request info on anyone from any ISP that they "suspect" of breaking the law...they do not have to have any proof whatsoever to get all my info.
Just because I have never downloaded a song doesn't mean they can't get all my "private" info from my ISP and do whatever they want with it.
I am not saying they shouldn't go after "law-breakers" (using the term loosely), but who's policing what info they can get or how they use it? No one that I know of, I wish someone who knew more would chime in... | |
| | | CCCMTech
Premium,VIP,MVM
join:2002-05-17
Pound, VA
| Re: How does SBC stand RE: recent RIAA activity? Not sure how the RIAA is doing it now. Last I heard they were doing searches and browsing the files, people with a lot of songs they would suspect has been downloading them illegally. They would get several names then ask for a subpoena. Not sure how much of it has changed.
--
There is no such thing as a dumb question. Better to ask and get it right, than to guess and mess it up. | |
| | |
prosecutor
Do Your Duty--Be A Juror
Premium
join:2002-11-15
Plano, TX
| said by icp1 :
Just because I have never downloaded a song doesn't mean they can't get all my "private" info from my ISP and do whatever they want with it.
Actually, if they have no proof that you did anything wrong and subpoena your information anyway, then you can probably sue them. Some states have a cause of action called abuse of process, some might call it malicious prosecution. If you think RIAA has subpoenaed you and you've done nothing wrong, call a lawyer and talk about the possibility of a class action suit against RIAA's litigation tactics. This presupposes that the talk about RIAA's abuse is true.
The solution is not to change the general subpoena laws. That will only hurt you in the long run.
RIAA's investigation is very expensive. It is doubtful that they would attempt to subpoena records for anyone that they don't have alot of proof on. If they made that mistake, it could really hurt them financially if they are sued.
[text was edited by author 2003-07-29 11:23:53] | |
| | |
suedama
@swbell.ne
| My concern goes back to the now infamous Brianna case reported in the NEw York TImes. While many will go back and forth on file trading, that really isnt my concern. America is fickle, we sell dual cassette players and all of our VCRS have the ability to record. To simply say that the "internet" is the breeding ground for intellectual property violation is insane. We have been copying intellectual property for over two decades. As far as file sharing goes, once VCR's are not allowed to record, and our cassette recorders (dual or otherwise) are not allowed to record from the radio or any other aux device then the RIAA has an argument, untill then, they don't.
In the case of Brianna, she was not old enough to have a utility bill, and certanly not old enough to sign any contract. SO this means in order for the RIAA to serve her and not her parents, the only way they would have gotten information to subpoena her directly by name,would have been by hacking the computer she had. And by doing that was able to get her home address. IF this was one adult male doing this to protect his intellectual property rights, he would be probably being listed as a sex offender by now, because he illegally obtained information under Title 18, to exploit a minor.
The RIAA with their many subpoenas are showing how they are allowed to Break the law, Title 18 (Federal), and do so with impunity.
Privacy is an important thing. Until File Sharing and VCR recording of television shows are deemed illegal, this is is a gray situation. However, hacking is not. It is a crime. There are many federal laws, and many more state laws regarding this. I believe SBC stance on not releasing any information is a good thing, and should be recognized as on going policy they have reenforced for many decades before the internet. | |
|
GPorter
It Always Works Better When It's On
join:2001-03-21
San Antonio, TX
| One way the RIAA is deciding whom to target is by simply looking for P2P servers that offer a lot of music. Pretty straightforward, huh? I (grudgingly) have to agree that if someone is blatantly offering to share MP3s of copyrighted works that they deserve the RIAA's attention. They also deserve a nice big sign that says "I'm stupid!", but that's another matter.;)
--
Glenn-Remembering 9-11-01 "Let's Roll!" | |
| 
cupcars
Premium
join:2000-12-14
Tulsa, OK
clubs:
| My thoughts......First of all I'm not trying to justify file sharing as a legitimate practice. I know that one person could share a single song and it could turn into millions of copies and the RIAA would not make a penny.
However, if file sharing is illegal then how is it ok for music stores and pawn shops to sell used cd's? The RIAA is only making money off the original sell of the cd, then the person who sell's it makes maybe a third of his money back, the store then sells it for a profit to a person who now has the music files and the RIAA did not make a penny off the transaction.
This example is showing the cd changing hands 3 times ( 2 of which is for the listening of) and yes that is a far cry from the millions of copies being exchanged on the internet but, the bottom line is all about the money...and no money is being made from the sell of used cd's.
Will they (RIAA) go after the resellers next?
Just my thoughts:)
--
You can please some of the people some of the time... but...you can't please all of the people all of the time | |
| | 
Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| Re: How does SBC stand RE: recent RIAA activity? The RIAA has actually pushed to make buying used CDs illegal. But the way it works when you purchase CD your are purchasing the intellectual rights to that one copy of the contents of that CD. You are then allowed to make on copy only for backup. You can then let others "borrow" your right to that song and things of the such.
When you sell the CD you are selling your personal right to own that copy of that song. You must then destroy any backups you may have.
I'm not a legal expert or anything but from everything I've read and heard here and there that's the way I gather it works.
--
"You know what I mean Vern?" - Ernest P. Worrellhttp://www.maxolasersquad.com | |
| | | | | | | | Havicaz
join:2001-07-17
Ballwin, MO
| Charter is resisting turning over the names of 67 customers that the RIAA gave them subpoenas for, story can be found here.
»www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/s···suit#top
got it off the charter forum.
kudos to the guys over there | |
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·
How does SBC stand RE: recent RIAA activity?
