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 JuggernautIrreverent or irrelevant?Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2 | reply to LondonOntGuy
Re: Air Canada workers could go on strike Monday said by LondonOntGuy:Assholes should be happy they even have jobs. With London's unemployment rate at an 'official' 10%, I can't expect them to have much in the way of sympathizers here.
Really... and, what do you do for a living? What's your job? How much do you make for your skills?
Your ass gets raped more in a day by bankers, corps, politicians, and stockholders than union workers ever could. Union's are the least of our worries.
Wake up. | |
jfmezeiPremium
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC
kudos:22 | Unions are in business to give the highest salaries, easiest working conditions and perks to their customers.
When Air Canada negotiated pay cuts while it was failing, it was with a promise of returning those benefits once AC went better. Employees now want those back.
But internally, management knew it would never give back those cuts because there continues to be downward pressure on wages to compete against westjet, porter and others.
Alitalia employees also believed that Alitalia was using magic accounting. They even went on strike when Alitalia declared bankrupcy, not believeing it. They were sure the government would bail the company out and they could return to their plush working conditions.
Well, Alitalia really did go bankrupt. It was liquidated, all employees lost their jobs, and some small airline purchased the name and some of Alitalia's assets but not its debts.
Any former Alitalia employee who wanted a job at the small airline had to start from scratch with 0 seniority and accept the wage contracts given by the small airline.
Air Canada is probably bigger than it needs to be. This works well during the 2 months of summer when all its planes are full, but the rest of the year, they have way too many employees and capacity. | |
JuggernautIrreverent or irrelevant?Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2 | You obviously need to re-read what I wrote, and then pause to understand it. | | |
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 Wolfie00My dog is an elitistPremium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:5 | reply to Juggernaut
said by Juggernaut: Union's are the least of our worries.
Wake up.
That's quite the blanket statement that I have to take exception to. Unions like CUPE have been responsible for a lot of the exorbitant costs and poor productivity of the public service and bear a large share of the blame for Toronto's financial problems, just by way of example. CUPW helped to make the post office unproductive and uncompetitive. CAW and the UAW were instrumental in helping to sink the car companies by raising costs, stifling automation, and lowering quality. Unions are responsible for the fact that some LCBO cashiers make more than teachers and university professors. They're not all bad, and sometimes they're essential, but a blanket defense of all unions like that doesn't fly.
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"The bond with a dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." -- Konrad Lorenz
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 elwoodbluesElwood BluesPremium
join:2006-08-30
HarperLand
 ·Cybersurf Intern..
| Sorry Wolfie, but it takes two to Tango.
CUPE has been responsible for huge labour costs for Toronto's civil service, but only because of spineless mayors and city councillors who wanted labour peace at any cost.
As for the LCBO, the problem there is that you have a crown corporation that is awash in money and couldn't care how it's spent, they'll just raise booze prices, in the name of social responsibility of course.
Look at what Ford did with the outside workers and will probably repeat with the inside ones. Using the labour regulations that are at any organizations disposal.
I'm not suggesting that it's the solution to every problem, but if you use the tools available to you, you might come out ahead.
Air Canada is, as some have put it, been using Hollywood Accounting, how can they sell almost every asset, been bankrupt what 2? 3 times, obtained labour concessions , cut back on the "perks" of travel, yet still be losing money?
It's no different then the crap that is going on with Toronto Hydro, instead of looking inside to be more efficient, they just run to the OEB and try to get a rate increase rubber stamped, and when they didn't they pouted and start cutting jobs and contractors left right and centre.
I'm not saying unions are the innocent party here, but frankly I'm sick and tired of people blaming them for all the woes.
If it wasn't for labour unions we wouldn't have a 40hr work week, benefits, safety regulations (??) .
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No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake....... | |
 dirtyjefferAnons on ignore, but not due to fear.Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON | said by elwoodblues:I'm not saying unions are the innocent party here, but frankly I'm sick and tired of people blaming them for all the woes.
nobody is blaming them for everything...i simply said they are part of the equation...people always blame the problems on "corporate greed"...well, as wolfie said, when you have guy pushing a broom in a factory making more than a teacher or a nurse, don't try and tell me the unions aren't equally to blame.
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Google this: (sqrt(cos(x))*cos(200*x)+sqrt(abs(x))-0.7)*(4-x*x)^0.01, sqrt(9-x^2), -sqrt(9-x^2) | |
Wolfie00My dog is an elitistPremium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:5 | reply to elwoodblues
What part of "they're not all bad, and sometimes they're essential" did you not understand?
I don't deny that unions have done a lot of good. But some of the same unions that gave workers a lot of important benefits and protections have gone on to become self-serving bureaucracies that help no one but themselves -- not the companies, not the workers, and not the customers. Just because a worker gets to be overpaid and underworked isn't a benefit if the company can't survive, or governments start outsourcing to get out from under the yoke of a union, and nor does it help anyone but the mediocre when a competitive reward and promotion system based on merit is replaced by a hopeless morass based on mindless seniority that rewards the lazy and incompetent.
And I'm totally sick of hearing how it's always management's fault because "they agreed to the deal." There is often no choice when dealing with a large and intransigent union. The Toronto garbage strike, for instance, was becoming a health hazard and giving Toronto a national and international black eye, not to mention that union bums were threatening and beating up citizens who were trying to dump garbage themselves.
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"The bond with a dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." -- Konrad Lorenz
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elwoodbluesElwood BluesPremium
join:2006-08-30
HarperLand Reviews:
·Cybersurf Intern..
| reply to dirtyjeffer
said by dirtyjeffer:said by elwoodblues:I'm not saying unions are the innocent party here, but frankly I'm sick and tired of people blaming them for all the woes.
nobody is blaming them for everything...i simply said they are part of the equation...people always blame the problems on "corporate greed"...well, as wolfie said, when you have guy pushing a broom in a factory making more than a teacher or a nurse, don't try and tell me the unions aren't equally to blame. That;s why I said, it takes 2 to Tango, if the union demands and you agree that a broom pusher gets paid more then a teacher, then you only have yourself to blame.
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No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake....... | |
jfmezeiPremium
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC
kudos:22 | reply to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:Air Canada is, as some have put it, been using Hollywood Accounting, how can they sell almost every asset, been bankrupt what 2? 3 times, obtained labour concessions , cut back on the "perks" of travel, yet still be losing money?
When Westjet advertises a $200 fare, Air Canada will have to match it even if it costs Air Canada $210 to carry the passenger (while costs $180 for Westjet).
When Air Canada has a 200 seat plane with only 100 seats sold at $300, it wil lose less money if it makes a seat sale at $100 to get an extra 25 passengers on board. It still loses money, but it looses LESS money.
North american airlines have 4 profitable months in summer. The rest is very difficult for them. It used to be that Air Canada milked raped Montreal-Toronto business customers all year long but with Westjet offering less restrictive fares, Air Canada had to stop charging $1000 for same day return and drop the price significantly (hence the Tango fares).
Air Canada has come a long way in streamlining its costs, but it still has some ways to go before it can profitably compete against Westjet.
International flights tend to be profitable and that is one advantage AC has over Westjet. (although westjet now does "charter" type flights to sunny places as well as scheds to Vegas and a few other places in USA)
American Airlines is a great example of marketing driven efficiency. They had spent millions studing the cost of carrying utensils on board. So they switched to plastic utensils to save a couple of million in fuel costs. But they refused to streamline their schedule to save hundreds of millions in costs because they wanted a schedule that looked good in reservation systems.
They wanted a whole bunch of planes landing at Dallas at same time, wait there 2 hours for people to make connections, and then all leave at same time. meanwhile, Southwest turns its planes around between 30 to 45 minutes.
The end result is that American airlines had lower aircraft utilisation rates because its aircraft spent many more hours unproductive on the ground, AND, this meant AA needed to pay leases on a larger number of aircraft, AND, American needed far more gates at the airport to accomodate all those aircraft arriving at same time, and thus more staff to man the gates. And when there was a thunderstorm at a time when planes were all landing or all departing, it wrecked havok on their whole network because so many planes were delayed.
Meanwhile, Southwest carried more passengers with fewer aircraft, using less staff and fewer gates at airports and has been profitable most of its life.
After 9-11, a decade after American learned about switching to plastic utensils saving a few million $, American realised that they should review their schedule to save hundreds of millions by using the rolling hub concept where planes turn around quickly which means some connections are really good and others aren't, but at the end of the day, AA saves far more money. But that wasn't enough to prevent it from going into bankrupcy protection.
Note that as Air Canada sold its divisions off, its operating costs rose. It now has to pay ACTS for aircraft maintenance. It needs to buy seats from Jazz and Jazz's profits don't go to Air Canada anymore. Heck, when you fly AC, AC has to send money to Aeroplan LLC to buy your your points.
And of course, the big doozie, it needs to make huge payments to leasing companies every month for all of its aircraft. This is where reducing fleet size really makes a difference, and to do so, you have to make your schedule very efficient.
But just like AA made bonehead moves by cutting utensils instead of making its schedule efficient, Air Canada has tried to get flight attendants to work longer hours (no relief crew on certain long hauls) instead of focusing on having a more efficient schedule.
Marketing dept have a lot of say on this. Ideally, Air Canada would run a few flights per day between Montreal and Toronto using 747s. But marketing dictate that they need hourly flights with some periods having 2 flights per hour if not more, and this is with smaller aircraft Once airlines start to compete on schedule, efficiency goes down the toilet. | |
 corsterPremium
join:2002-02-23
Gatineau, QC
 ·TekSavvy Cable
| said by jfmezei: It used to be that Air Canada milked raped Montreal-Toronto business customers all year long but with Westjet offering less restrictive fares, Air Canada had to stop charging $1000 for same day return and drop the price significantly (hence the Tango fares).
Double whammy.... Porter is squeezing them down at the island and WestJet has been trying for years to squeeze them at Pearson - though frankly, I don't think WestJet is doing that well on this route. Then again, Air Canada has lots of connector traffic to fill their YYZ-YUL flights, although that isn't exactly good for their profitability on that route either. | |
dirtyjefferAnons on ignore, but not due to fear.Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON | reply to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:That;s why I said, it takes 2 to Tango, if the union demands and you agree that a broom pusher gets paid more then a teacher, then you only have yourself to blame.
in many cases (big unions), you don't have a choice...that is partly what happened in the auto sector...if the union threatens a strike, no cars are made...if no cars are made, the company can't deliver and sell any product...as well, the company has daily shipments arriving of stock to build the cars, and have nowhere really to store it...it causes a HUGE mess, and the unions know that...same thing with the Toronto Garbage strike, or perhaps even a Transit strike...the union has far too much power...when you have the ability to collapse your employer, something is definitely wrong (imbalanced).
in Germany (for example), the labour unions work in co-operation with the employer/governments...here, it is an "us vs them" attitude, which is why it will always be destined to fail.
regarding the Air Canada (possible strike), i think they should just go on strike...then, i would look at AC...if they aren't going to make any money, let them go bankrupt...perhaps open the skies up to other companies that could come here and make it a viable business...those companies will pick up the slack, and the staff can apply for positions with those companies (if they are needed).
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Google this: (sqrt(cos(x))*cos(200*x)+sqrt(abs(x))-0.7)*(4-x*x)^0.01, sqrt(9-x^2), -sqrt(9-x^2) | |
Wolfie00My dog is an elitistPremium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:5 | said by dirtyjeffer:..those companies will pick up the slack, and the staff can apply for positions with those companies (if they are needed).
And there you've just hit on three things that are hateful to any union cheerleader:
- "apply for positions" means you have to be competitively judged on your merits -- your actual skills and capabilities
- a new position means you lose your precious "seniority" -- the union system where you're promoted and compensated based on how long you've been sitting on your ass, not how good you are
- even if you're any good, you will only get hired into a new job if you're actually needed, not because a union says so -- no featherbedding here
See, the whole business of new companies replacing AC and hiring capable personnel and trying to run efficient competitive businesses is totally against everything that unions stand for!
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"The bond with a dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." -- Konrad Lorenz
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elwoodbluesElwood BluesPremium
join:2006-08-30
HarperLand Reviews:
·Cybersurf Intern..
| reply to dirtyjeffer
said by dirtyjeffer:in Germany (for example), the labour unions work in co-operation with the employer/governments...here, it is an "us vs them" attitude, which is why it will always be destined to fail.
The mentality is such because the employer has always tried to F*K the employee in some way, making onerous demands (EMD is a prime example). that is just not reasonable.
At the same time the Unions have cooperated, taking cuts in pay and/or benefits to "save the company" or effectively lose their jobs when the company goes under. It's happened with Air Canada and it's happened in the Auto Sector, both of which have been on the verge of bankruptcy.
The Toronto outside worker strikes is a bad example, we had for 7yrs a "pro union" council that wouldn't even cross the picket line to get to their offices (and they are effectively "management")
I mentioned above past Mayors have given in to obtain labour peace at any cost. And that's just emboldened them. So lets be honest if you went to your boss and demanded say a substantial pay/benefits increase(some might deem your request unreasonable) and he gave it to you(no particular reason, you just want it), wouldn't you try it again a couple of years down the line?
.
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No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake....... | |
elwoodbluesElwood BluesPremium
join:2006-08-30
HarperLand Reviews:
·Cybersurf Intern..
| reply to Wolfie00
said by Wolfie00:said by dirtyjeffer:..those companies will pick up the slack, and the staff can apply for positions with those companies (if they are needed).
And there you've just hit on three things that are hateful to any union cheerleader: - "apply for positions" means you have to be competitively judged on your merits -- your actual skills and capabilities - a new position means you lose your precious "seniority" -- the union system where you're promoted and compensated based on how long you've been sitting on your ass, not how good you are - even if you're any good, you will only get hired into a new job if you're actually needed, not because a union says so -- no featherbedding here See, the whole business of new companies replacing AC and hiring capable personnel and trying to run efficient competitive businesses is totally against everything that unions stand for! But Wolfie, if you are a pilot and you make X dollars a year,and your employer decides they want to start a "low cost alternative" and make you work for them for say 25% less money, is that reasonable?
Same job, same skills, less pay.
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No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake....... | |
dirtyjefferAnons on ignore, but not due to fear.Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON | said by elwoodblues:But Wolfie, if you are a pilot and you make X dollars a year,and your employer decides they want to start a "low cost alternative" and make you work for them for say 25% less money, is that reasonable?
Same job, same skills, less pay.
i understand your point here, and don't necessarily disagree with it...however, what i am curious about is what the current compensation is, what ACs offer was, and what the union wants...the devil is in the details.
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Google this: (sqrt(cos(x))*cos(200*x)+sqrt(abs(x))-0.7)*(4-x*x)^0.01, sqrt(9-x^2), -sqrt(9-x^2) | |
dirtyjefferAnons on ignore, but not due to fear.Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON | reply to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:
The mentality is such because the employer has always tried to F*K the employee in some way, making onerous demands (EMD is a prime example). that is just not reasonable.
maybe in some cases, yes...certainly several decades ago (the early years of unions), i would agree 100%...now, not so much.
quote:
At the same time the Unions have cooperated, taking cuts in pay and/or benefits to "save the company" or effectively lose their jobs when the company goes under. It's happened with Air Canada and it's happened in the Auto Sector, both of which have been on the verge of bankruptcy.
some unions have co-operated, and have worked with the employer, yes...unfortunately, those examples are too far and few between.
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Google this: (sqrt(cos(x))*cos(200*x)+sqrt(abs(x))-0.7)*(4-x*x)^0.01, sqrt(9-x^2), -sqrt(9-x^2) | |
Wolfie00My dog is an elitistPremium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:5
1 edit | reply to elwoodblues
said by elwoodblues:But Wolfie, if you are a pilot and you make X dollars a year,and your employer decides they want to start a "low cost alternative" and make you work for them for say 25% less money, is that reasonable?
Maybe, maybe not. The problem with the union view of things (and as I keep saying, they're not all bad and sometimes necessary, although a lot of that necessity was in the past) is the belief that this is always wrong. Things are rarely that black-and-white. The reality is that it depends on many factors, including the current business outlook for air transport and the market for pilots. Sometimes making 25% less today looks pretty good compared to making 100% less tomorrow.
As an aside, there's a real scandal happening with respect to the pay of junior pilots, especially in the US, and their relative inexperience and low pay on the connector lines was a direct cause of the Colgan Air disaster in Buffalo. But the problem was incompetence and unions aren't going to fix this -- they'd be the first to defend the "brothers." What is needed here is much better regulation, which is a totally different issue.
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"The bond with a dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." -- Konrad Lorenz
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elwoodbluesElwood BluesPremium
join:2006-08-30
HarperLand Reviews:
·Cybersurf Intern..
| said by Wolfie00:said by elwoodblues:But Wolfie, if you are a pilot and you make X dollars a year,and your employer decides they want to start a "low cost alternative" and make you work for them for say 25% less money, is that reasonable?
Maybe, maybe not. The problem with the union view of things (and as I keep saying, they're not all bad and sometimes necessary, although a lot of that necessity was in the past) is the belief that this is always wrong. Things are rarely that black-and-white. The reality is that it depends on many factors, including the current business outlook for air transport and the market for pilots. Sometimes making 25% less today looks pretty good compared to making 100% less tomorrow. Then 75% must be even better right? Where does it end?
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No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake....... | |
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| reply to Juggernaut
said by Juggernaut:
Your ass gets raped more in a day by bankers, corps, politicians, and stockholders than union workers ever could. Union's are the least of our worries.
Wake up.
Lemme guess, you're an overpaid union fat cat. You guys really get pissy if anyone ever criticizes them and says they should be happy they're even working. Unions served a purpose once, but they've long overstayed their welcome.
As for bankers and big business, they've always been raping us, and there's nothing we can do about it, so bitching isn't going to make it any better at all. | |
JuggernautIrreverent or irrelevant?Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2 | Actually, I'm not a union member, nor overpaid, or a fat cat.
What I pointed out was why our take-home is shrinking, yet the costs go up. | |
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