| reply to LiQuiD
Re: Guess it's propaganda season again! said by LiQuiD:The problem here is that we don't currently have that at all. the current wholesaling is not last mile. It's last mile plus backhaul to the ISP's DC. I'd bet dollars to donuts that if ISP's took care of their own backhaul, even if it means multiple links to aggregate from a bunch of CO's, that they can likely do it cheaper than what Bell's "costs" for this are currently. I seriously doubt it: Bell has around 450 COs and AHSSPI costs only $1750 per Gbps. For TSI who has 16 of those, they would need to find someone else willing to aggregate 400+ locations for under $28k/month or about $70/month per location.
So, do you seriously think TSI and others could manage to interconnect COs themselves for cheaper than Bell's Fibe25? |
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1 edit | said by InvalidError:said by LiQuiD:The problem here is that we don't currently have that at all. the current wholesaling is not last mile. It's last mile plus backhaul to the ISP's DC. I'd bet dollars to donuts that if ISP's took care of their own backhaul, even if it means multiple links to aggregate from a bunch of CO's, that they can likely do it cheaper than what Bell's "costs" for this are currently. I seriously doubt it: Bell has around 450 COs and AHSSPI costs only $1750 per Gbps. For TSI who has 16 of those, they would need to find someone else willing to aggregate 400+ locations for under $28k/month or about $70/month per location. So, do you seriously think TSI and others could manage to interconnect COs themselves for cheaper than Bell's Fibe25? There probably a lot of places that TSI, Caneris, Acanac, and others could 'partner' on backhaul circuits.
They are all backhauling to the same places...151 Front and other carrier hotels/NAP's. It's statistically likely that their customer geographic distribution is more or less similar - ie. if they collectively have 15,000 Toronto customers then they are likely to have most of them coming from a small number of CO's, etc....
The smart thing for them to do is create a not-for-profit co-op for this and bring in as many smaller ISP's as possible. Not-for-profit doesn't necessarily mean that you can't have a reserve fund for deploying new equipment for more capacity or better price/performance. Or simply lease the gear for 3-5 years from the vendor or other leasing source. |
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 El QuintronResident Mouth BreatherPremium
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| reply to InvalidError
said by InvalidError:For TSI who has 16 of those, they would need to find someone else willing to aggregate 400+ locations for under $28k/month or about $70/month per location. I make no pretense of being a network builder here, but I'm sure deals could be struck with various data centers to take care of their interconnection needs.
Again, once you have an initial investment, and you build out from there...
So create your first POP where you have the most clients, so you can make your money back the fastest, and keep prioritizing from there.
said by InvalidError:So, do you seriously think TSI and others could manage to interconnect COs themselves for cheaper than Bell's Fibe25? The point isn't to have a lower internal cost than Bell (at least not at the beginning) it's to create un-molested access and to derive greater revenue from each subscriber.
In the end if you don't have to pay Bell for each sub you have it's a double whammy for you, more money in your company's pocket, and less money in Bell's.
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| said by El Quintron:In the end if you don't have to pay Bell for each sub you have it's a double whammy for you, more money in your company's pocket, and less money in Bell's. Even though you might end up paying $20 less to Bell, you might end up paying $30 more elsewhere and be out $10 more at the bottom line... then you need to make a compelling service offer with that $10 handicap vs pure-GAS ISPs, which would be a tough sell to people who just want cheap(er) internet that works. |
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El QuintronResident Mouth BreatherPremium
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| said by InvalidError:Even though you might end up paying $20 less to Bell, you might end up paying $30 more elsewhere and be out $10 more at the bottom line... then you need to make a compelling service offer with that $10 handicap vs pure-GAS ISPs, which would be a tough sell to people who just want cheap(er) internet that works. A well worked out business plan would probably sort of a lot of these issues out, but an easy selling point would be custom speed offerings gained from having your own POP.
Larger wholesale companies could probably turn these arrangements into a goldmine.
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 LiQuiDBSD geekPremium
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Anjou, QC | reply to InvalidError
said by InvalidError:I seriously doubt it: Bell has around 450 COs and AHSSPI costs only $1750 per Gbps. For TSI who has 16 of those, they would need to find someone else willing to aggregate 400+ locations for under $28k/month or about $70/month per location. So, do you seriously think TSI and others could manage to interconnect COs themselves for cheaper than Bell's Fibe25? LOL... "only" 1750$ per Gbps? I wonder if any of the ISP's that sell fiber would be willing to come out here and acknowledge how much they can get GPON connectivity (no bandwidth) for in urban areas, especially when the fiber may already be there. Once ISP's would have equipment in a CO, they can get a point-to-point gigabit, or even just (multiple) 100mbit to backhaul into their DC, from the CO. You can easily just do so on ethernet, and I can tell you now that ISP's can easily negotiate multiple L2 GPON from CO's back to a POP for less than500$ each. I worked at a much smaller ISP than Teksavvy, and using dark fibre providers other than Bell/Videotron/Rogers they often got 100mbit for under 400$ a month (no new fiber lays). gig-e isn't that much more, and it's not like they need to add internet transit costs to this, it's a PTP connection.
And by the way, even then, when did the point of this become providing ISP's a way to provide cheap internet access without any costs to small ISP's and solving all their challenges and problems without them spending a cent to provide service? Sorry, I think our judgement is getting a little too clouded if we feel so "bad" for ISP's that we think they're entitled to getting stuff for practically free. I fully expect that for ISP's being given access to the (real) last mile, and for them to build out a network back to their POP/main office is costly. If you still find it prohibitive after they get access to the local loops, and the ISP's feel that way too, then we have a serious problem in Canada... and it's not with the incumbents.
In Montreal alone, I know of 5 ISP's that rent out the local loops and provide their own flavor of xDSL. The only problem is, it's not cost effective to roll out at residential level in many cases, because of the prohibitive costs of entry into the CO's, and not all CO's are available, as I've understood it. At the end of the day, it's being done, but it's happening too slowly right now because **it's too easy for ISP's to just be wholesalers piggy backing off of Bell's GAS DSL offering** instead.
Perhaps it's because others don't quite understand it the way I do having worked in a company that does offer their own DSL, perhaps it's just people that have had their shirt pulled over their head and don't see what's happening, but while ISP's are often justified for being a "victim" of Bell's size and status as a monopoly, in many cases they're also just playing the victim to perfection.
my $0.02
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 JGROCKYPremium,VIP
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2 edits | Actually... They get $1750 for the gig-e ahsspi, then around $2500 for the gig-LAN component, then this enables us to place about 4,000 users on it at $20/user which has a network income cost built in.... So even at a likely low $2 of network component built into the case, you're looking at $12k+ per month in income, or better yet, it enables them to get over $80k per month of income.... |
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| said by JGROCKY:Actually... They get $1750 for the gig-e ahsspi, then around $2500 for the gig-LAN component, then this enables us to place about 4,000 users on it at $20/user which has a network income cost built in.... So even at $2 of network component built into the case, you're looking at $12k+ per month in income, or better yet, it enables over $80k per month of income.... Holy crap... 80k is a metric fuckton of money to be making on a single GigE line...
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| reply to El Quintron
>but an easy selling point would be custom speed offerings gained from having your own POP.
Only works for those customers that have copper pairs at less than 2km or so from your xDSL equipment. Bell's remotes even if they let you connect to it "upstream" at the CO do not cover all cities e.g. Ottawa
On the other hand, the cable internet POI seems to be a bit more attractive as speed is pretty much uniform. 1/5 or less POI to connect to and have better coverage than Bell's CO. Now if they can work out the implementation side of things abit more smoothly. |
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El QuintronResident Mouth BreatherPremium
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| said by An_Onymous:Only works for those customers that have copper pairs at less than 2km or so from your xDSL equipment. Bell's remotes even if they let you connect to it "upstream" at the CO do not cover all cities e.g. Ottawa On the other hand, the cable internet POI seems to be a bit more attractive as speed is pretty much uniform. 1/5 or less POI to connect to and have better coverage than Bell's CO. Now if they can work out the implementation side of things abit more smoothly. Anyway you want to set it up is good news for yourself and the client.
You can charge more, give more, and make more in the end.
The more cash your ISP makes the more gear it can buy, and you spread out from there.
Now, I'm not a network engineer, and I'm not pretending to be able to manage an independant ISP but the fundamentals I just listed off are pretty sound.
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