espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
 ·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
 ·Comcast
 ·Embarq
| reply to funchords
Re: MORE! MORE! MORE!
said by funchords  :Forging the RSTs is a wrongful act. After you get caught in "The Real World," you don't get to keep committing wrongful acts with impunity until you figure out what else to do. Forging RSTs is only about as wrong as cutting in line. It's not a very nice thing to do and it tends to annoy other people in the line, it may violate the social contract but there are no civil or criminal implications.
The RFC examples you love to quote refer to unintended consequences of RST injecting by firewalls on unknown header values. The Comcast deployment is a little more specific -- they know how P2P apps respond to TCP resets, it achieves the desired effect for them, and they appear to be taking reasonable measures to ensure that only their intended application target is affected. (not 100% obviously, but I'm sure they try to make it as close to perfect as possible)
said by funchords :Nobody can license them to do what they're doing. Not BitTorrent, not PublicKnowledge, not the EFF, nobody. They must stop. They must disclose. They must accept responsibility for lying and under-delivering their service. They need to get the ass clowns in marketing on board with the rest of the company. The folks that worked to craft the AUP seem to have a clue, and I'm sure there were more than a few "Uhh, guys..." comments that popped up with regards to the advertising.
said by funchords :Take it offline right now -- today -- and I'll bet that they can figure out a Network Neutral solution before 9 months. This "SHUT IT DOWN NOW" stance reminds me of the traffic meter study we did here in MN. Lots of people got annoyed with waiting on highway entrance ramps so they convinced the state senate to push the department of transportation into shutting down the meters. As ordered, MNDOT shut down the meters and conducted a survey for a few months. Traffic SUCKED. My normal commute to downtown went from pretty predictable 25 minutes to a range of 20-65 minutes, usually on the upper end of the scale. By the time the study was complete people were writing to the local papers, politicians, and MNDOT requesting the meters be turned back on. Study results were published here: »www.dot.state.mn.us/rampmeterstudy/ |
|
funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
| said by espaeth :Forging RSTs is only about as wrong as cutting in line. It's not a very nice thing to do and it tends to annoy other people in the line, it may violate the social contract but there are no civil or criminal implications. That's true of all of the RFCs. Enforcement is essentially the missing part.
I'm on the record as saying that the FCC should limit its rulemaking to enforcement of existing rules, it shouldn't put itself into the position of duplicating, adding to, or changing Internet Standards.
But even better would be to restore wholesale competition to Broadband (the crap going on with Bell Canada now, not withstanding).
said by espaeth :The RFC examples you love to quote refer to unintended consequences of RST injecting by firewalls on unknown header values. The Comcast deployment is a little more specific -- they know how P2P apps respond to TCP resets, it achieves the desired effect for them, and they appear to be taking reasonable measures to ensure that only their intended application target is affected. (not 100% obviously, but I'm sure they try to make it as close to perfect as possible) I love to quote the RFCs (those that are the authoritative "Internet Standards") because that's the instruction manual for developers and implementors.
And Comcast didn't know how all P2P apps would respond -- all P2P apps haven't been written yet. And their secret addition to RFC 793 wouldn't give developers the heads up as to why their apps were behaving unexpectedly.
And even for the ones that are out there, they did not get it right. Remember that I found this after two months of investigation as to why I couldn't upload anything via Gnutella -- 24 hours a day, 7 days a week -- 100% blocked.
Their Sandvine "solution" doesn't delay uploads, it blocks them. Comcast's stretched definition of "delay" only works when there multiple copies of all pieces outside of the Comcast.net domain. Comcast, being the 2nd largest ISP in the US, repeatedly prevented a lot of original content from being uploaded. They didn't delay it, they blocked it.
And, once discovered, I couldn't even report the problem to anyone at Comcast because Customer Support (truthfully) did not know it existed on their network. My CS notes would probably say "customer sees UFOs and Black Helicopters - ID10T."
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
FCC Public Hearing on the Future of the Internet - Thursday, April 17th - Stanford Univ., Calif. |
|
espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
·Embarq
| said by funchords :That's true of all of the RFCs. Enforcement is essentially the missing part. Actually, for the worthwhile RFCs the enforcement is quite effective. "Do it this way or your shit won't work"
said by funchords :I love to quote the RFCs (those that are the authoritative "Internet Standards") because that's the instruction manual for developers and implementors. There are actually a couple Internet standards bodies: the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF, who picks and chooses certain RFCs to become standards) and the IEEE being the two largest orgs. The difference between RFCs and IEEE standards is like the difference between books and scientific journals. To publish in a scientific journal you need a certain level of detail, research, and peer review whereas any jackass of the street can write a book.
I'm not knocking RFCs, there's a lot of brilliant ideas published in RFC form, but you have to take them for what they are. Many of the proposals are purposefully left open-ended for interpretation; that's why SHOULD vs MUST becomes a huge point of distinction in many RFCs.
said by funchords :And Comcast didn't know how all P2P apps would respond -- all P2P apps haven't been written yet. If the app doesn't exist, how would Sandvine profile it to be able to take action on it? |
|
funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
| Any jackass can write an RFC, but it won't make "Internet Standard" level until its been fully vetted.
If the app doesn't exist, how would Sandvine profile it to be able to take action on it? Sandvine attacked the application protocol, so it recognized all BitTorrent applications. However, how one BitTorrent app responds to RST's resulting Winsock error code might be completely different than how another responds. Some apps might try and reestablish contact right away, others might mark the peer as "bad" and blacklist it.
Sandvine's method doesn't (and probably cannot) recognize which app is actually being used to generate the protocol it is attacking, so therefore it cannot predict what the app will do in response to the RST unless that behavior is also described in the protocol. And for BitTorrent, Gnutella, or ED2K, it is not. (I don't know about the others.)
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
FCC Public Hearing on the Future of the Internet - Thursday, April 17th - Stanford Univ., Calif. |
|
RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
·AT&T Midwest
1 edit | reply to espaeth
"Forging RSTs is only about as wrong as cutting in line. "
Since oversimplified examples have been introduced, I'll correct yours:
Forging RSTs is only about as wrong as pulling someone you don't like out of line, punching them in the face and telling them if you see them again you'll do it again.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange. |
|
espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN | Do you also take it personally when cell towers become loaded and shrink their coverage area causing you to drop your call? |
|
RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11 | Take it personally? Are you sure you are replying the correct thread?
--
Toolmaster of La Grange. |
|
espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN | I'm just saying you're taking the personification of a TCP RST a bit far. |
|
RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11 | Hardly. Just using the same silly reasoning you did.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange. |
|
RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY
| reply to espaeth
said by espaeth :I'm not knocking RFCs, there's a lot of brilliant ideas published in RFC form, but you have to take them for what they are. And then there are the RFCs that are issued dated April 1 such as 1149 (A Standard for the transmission of IP datagrams on avian carriers) issued in 1990. This one was actually implemented experimentally a few years ago and even had an enhancement RFC issued a few years ago where the datagrams were tunneled via commercial air planes to speed the transmission time. |
|
funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
| reply to RadioDoc
said by RadioDoc :Forging RSTs is only about as wrong as pulling someone you don't like out of line, punching them in the face and telling them if you see them again you'll do it again. No, allow me:
Forging RSTs is only about as wrong as pulling someone you don't like out of line, punching them in the face, and then blaming someone else for the assault.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
FCC Public Hearing on the Future of the Internet - Thursday, April 17th - Stanford Univ., Calif. |
|
Doctor Four
My other vehicle is a TARDIS
Premium
join:2000-09-05
Dallas, TX
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| reply to funchords
said by funchords :And even for the ones that are out there, they did not get it right. Remember that I found this after two months of investigation as to why I couldn't upload anything via Gnutella -- 24 hours a day, 7 days a week -- 100% blocked. Their Sandvine "solution" doesn't delay uploads, it blocks them. Comcast's stretched definition of "delay" only works when there multiple copies of all pieces outside of the Comcast.net domain. Comcast, being the 2nd largest ISP in the US, repeatedly prevented a lot of original content from being uploaded. They didn't delay it, they blocked it. I have seen what is most likely Sandvine equipment in
operation on Gnutella and WinMX, where it forces peer
connection resets as soon as someone enters my upload
queue. And sometimes I've seen these people keep trying,
maybe not knowing that they are disconnected in this
manner, thinking perhaps it is the person they are
downloading from that is disconnecting them.
--
"The trouble with computers, of course, is that they are very sophisticated idiots." - Doctor Who (from Robot)
|
|
madrhino
join:2004-07-03
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
| reply to funchords
said by funchords :Forging RSTs is only about as wrong as pulling someone you don't like out of line, punching them in the face, and then blaming someone else for the assault. That sums it up rather nicely. |
|
