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amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
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| reply to tenbase
Re: Wait - Something Useful?
said by tenbase  :I'm glad I live in a country where individuals and minorities have rights, and repugnant socialist concepts such as this rarely gain traction. That's an odd position. Public airwaves are, well, public. Like parks, the public giveth, and the public taketh away depending on competing interests.
said by tenbase :You do realize that there are many, many ways to communicate over the air besides morse code and voice, right? I can think of more than a dozen narrow and robust digital modes right off the top of my head. But, the argument (we most often hear) in favor of preserving hobby radio is its usefulness in disasters. The strong point of morse code (until recently) was that it used less power, less bandwidth, is more intelligible under adverse conditions, and the equipment (basically two ends of a wire) are impervious to the harsh elements expected during a disaster. Another positive was that it would keep the riff-raff out, preventing hobby radio from deteriorating into CB.
So, yes, I find it ironic that morse was discarded in the interest of gaining hobbyists. The fact that you can do digital transmissions (with more sophisticated equipment) doesn't change the irony. And, I've heard the hobby bands lately, and I can't say they're the better for that change. It sounds a lot like CB. People using more power than they need to, not yielding, etc.
So, it's a bit ironic to me that hobbyists will essentially degrade their own spectrum (in the interest of popularity), but if something potentially more popular degrades their spectrum, suddenly they're purists. 
Mark | |
tenbase
join:2000-07-19
Alexandria, VA
| Here's some irony for ya - you are advocating eliminating some of the last publicly available spectrum - that means anyone who passes a simple test can use it - in order to have it rendered useless by RF pollution. Exactly what "public good" is being served by this, when the technology being touted has already existed for decades in the form of low-frequency, non-interfering PLC?
Amateur Radio is not a US-only hobby, it is recognized and protected by international treaty, and virtually every country in the world issues licenses for the tiny slivers of spectrum allocated to the service. The HF spectrum is not confined to borders either, signals in this band can easily propagate worldwide, unlike with any other part of the electromagnetic spectrum. Thus, it is well worth defending from ill-conceived, half-baked techno-junk such as HF BPL/PLC.
Finally, the rules regarding morse code as a license requirement were in place due to international treaty, and had nothing to do with "hobbyists". Once the treaty requirement went away, the FCC later dropped the licensing requirement. All NPRM comments both for and against dropping the requirement are public record and available on the FCC website for all to see.
And yes, there are plenty of idiots on the air, just like there are plenty of idiots on the interweb. Neither bother me much. As in the real world, you just have to take the bad with the good and avoid the fools when you can.
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I would kill everyone on this forum for a drop of sweet beer.. | |
RadioDoc
Sortofadog
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
Chicago, IL
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| reply to amigo_boy
said by amigo_boy :said by tenbase :I'm glad I live in a country where individuals and minorities have rights, and repugnant socialist concepts such as this rarely gain traction. That's an odd position. Public airwaves are, well, public. Like parks, the public giveth, and the public taketh away depending on competing interests. Well, there's your problem. BPL does not use the "public airwaves". It is a closed circuit system which is not supposed to radiate. The interference is caused by the unintentional radiation of the network carrier (power lines) acting as an antenna. The radiation is not a part of the functionality of BPL systems and as such is not necessary for it to provide those "benefits". It is due to a bad conceptual design, sloppy engineering and slipshod implementation. By your logic there should be nothing in the 5-890 MHz band since cable TV might radiate into that space. Absurd.
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Toolmaster of La Grange. | |
hescominsoon
join:2003-02-18
Brunswick, MD
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| reply to tenbase
said by tenbase :Here's some irony for ya - you are advocating eliminating some of the last publicly available spectrum - that means anyone who passes a simple test can use it - in order to have it rendered useless by RF pollution. Exactly what "public good" is being served by this, when the technology being touted has already existed for decades in the form of low-frequency, non-interfering PLC? Amateur Radio is not a US-only hobby, it is recognized and protected by international treaty, and virtually every country in the world issues licenses for the tiny slivers of spectrum allocated to the service. The HF spectrum is not confined to borders either, signals in this band can easily propagate worldwide, unlike with any other part of the electromagnetic spectrum. Thus, it is well worth defending from ill-conceived, half-baked techno-junk such as HF BPL/PLC. Finally, the rules regarding morse code as a license requirement were in place due to international treaty, and had nothing to do with "hobbyists". Once the treaty requirement went away, the FCC later dropped the licensing requirement. All NPRM comments both for and against dropping the requirement are public record and available on the FCC website for all to see. And yes, there are plenty of idiots on the air, just like there are plenty of idiots on the interweb. Neither bother me much. As in the real world, you just have to take the bad with the good and avoid the fools when you can. exactly..good point and well put..:) | |
amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
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| reply to tenbase
said by tenbase :you are advocating eliminating some of the last publicly available spectrum ... in order to have it rendered useless by RF pollution. Not advocating. Just suggesting that it should be on the table. It's not sacred. And, it's less popular than it was 20-30 years ago. Even hobbyists recognize this. It was a large part of the argument for doing away with the Morse code requirement.
And, as I already said, that's ironic for a few reasons. We're told that hobby radio serves a valuable public service in the event of an emergency. It may (and, it may be something that can be served by the National Guard). But, 20-30 years ago the argument in favor of Morse code was similar: It's the best communication method in the event of a disaster. That was dismissed in the interest of "moving forward" and gaining participants. The result is that bandwidth and intelligibility was sacrificed. If hobbyists can do it to themselves, I don't see why society can't. It may be undesirable for a number of reasons. But, hobbyists have already demonstrated perfection is situational.
said by tenbase :recognized and protected by international treaty, Treaties are modified, especially when they are deemed outdated. Hence Morse code taking a backseat to more bandwidth-consuming modes.
said by tenbase :Finally, the rules regarding morse code as a license requirement were in place due to international treaty, and had nothing to do with "hobbyists". That's an equivocation. Hobbyists defended it on the same grounds that the hobby itself is defended (useful in a disaster). They lost. Why should the hobby be immune from additional weighing of competing interests?
said by tenbase :And yes, there are plenty of idiots on the air, just like there are plenty of idiots on the interweb. Neither bother me much. As in the real world, you just have to take the bad with the good and avoid the fools when you can. A couple of points, 1) the number of idiots has grown since the licensing requirements were eased (in the interest of rebuilding a dwindling base of participants). I've heard it myself. The excess power and refusal to yield is much worse than what I noticed 15-20 years ago. 2) If more idiots making more bandwidth unuseable is something that doesn't bother you much, neither should other uses that some people may find more useful to them, than your use (which is pretty much the calculation that occurs between hobbyists behaving as CBers.).
Mark | |
W1RFI
join:2003-05-12
Burlington, CT
| said by amigo_boy :said by tenbase :you are advocating eliminating some of the last publicly available spectrum ... in order to have it rendered useless by RF pollution. Not advocating. Just suggesting that it should be on the table. It's not sacred. And, it's less popular than it was 20-30 years ago. Even hobbyists recognize this. It was a large part of the argument for doing away with the Morse code requirement. Your information is no more true now than it was the last time you posted it. Here's the same response that you were given last time:
»p1k.arrl.org/~ehare/hams_vs_population.jpg
The result is that bandwidth and intelligibility was sacrificed. If hobbyists can do it to themselves, I don't see why society can't. It may be undesirable for a number of reasons. But, hobbyists have already demonstrated perfection is situational. No such thing has been demonstrated. Where useful and appropriate, Morse code continues a healthy use in Amateur Radio. So do digital modes, which can and do offer more information per Hz than does Morse code. Bandwidth for voice modes is indeed greater than the bandwidth for Morse code, but it carries a much greater information content than does any digital mode carrying only data, because there is information contained in tone of voice, inflection and timbre that is also conveyed.
Ed Hare, W1RFI | |
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