pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| More Taxpayer Fleecing
$800,000 of hard-earned taxpayer money wasted so far and $3 million more needed?
That could have paid for a few police officers, teachers, road improvements, fire trucks, ambulances, and other things that a local government should actually be procuring. If there is any justice to be had from here, any elected official who approved this project should be made to personally work off all the money wasted here and return it to the taxpayers.
This is just more proof that any Internet service which requires even a single nickel of taxpayer money to be spent at any level should be banned outright.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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jhboricua
ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-06
Minneapolis, MN
clubs:
| Oh please, spare us the rethoric and your so call 'outrage'. Government has wasted even more taxpayer money in incentives and tax breaks for incumbents all over the country on broadband promises never delivered. $800,000 is a speck of dust.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA * |
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rit56
join:2000-12-01
New York, NY | reply to pnh102
so you're in favor then of local governments not granting Verizon tax breaks and sweetheart deals anymore? they should finance everything 100% on their own right? no breaks, no deals, no restricted build outs? . |
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jhboricua
ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-06
Minneapolis, MN
clubs:
edit:
January 24th, @03:53PM
| said by rit56  :so you're in favor then of local governments not granting Verizon tax breaks and sweetheart deals anymore? they should finance everything 100% on their own right? no breaks, no deals, no restricted build outs? . Of course he's not. Have you seen the thread on NYC FIOS. Over there his outrage is about how 'government is holding progress back' by not letting his master do whatever they want with NYC. Go the Lafayette LUS related threads and he's bashing them too for no reason other than it is not a incumbent deployment but one done by the city. It's pretty clear what his real motivations are, which is why I find it so funny that he comes to this thread to state how this wasted money could have been used for teachers, policeman, etc... it reeks of hypocrisy.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA * |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| reply to jhboricua
said by jhboricua :Government has wasted even more taxpayer money in incentives and tax breaks for incumbents all over the country on broadband promises never delivered. There's a huge difference between a tax break and an outright payment by a government. Someone had to decide how to spend that money. Clearly, it should have been spent on something else.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| reply to rit56
said by rit56 :so you're in favor then of local governments not granting Verizon tax breaks and sweetheart deals anymore? they should finance everything 100% on their own right? no breaks, no deals, no restricted build outs? . You already know the answer to this so there's no need to repeat myself.
What does Verizon have to do with this situation?
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
| said by pnh102 :What does Verizon have to do with this situation? That you're a telco shill, of course. |
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bent
not broken
Premium
join:2004-10-04
Longmont, CO
clubs:
 ·Comcast Formerly ..
| reply to pnh102
Shameless Shill.
There is PLENTY of precedent for municipalities providing all sorts utility service. Most often these infrastructure builds are funded by the issuance of bonds which are paid back out of the revenues the services generates.
If you're in the camp that views broadband as a luxury service, you should check into The Flat Earth Society, I'm sure your views would be more than welcome there.
Save the astroturfing for grandma dial-up who still buys it.
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»www.lp.org/issues/family-budget.shtml
"That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau |
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jhboricua
ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-06
Minneapolis, MN
clubs:
edit:
January 24th, @04:35PM
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :There's a huge difference between a tax break and an outright payment by a government. When the reason behind both don't materialize there is no difference to the taxpayer. Except in this case the city can tell Arinc to get lost. They can't realistically to that to the incumbents.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA * |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| reply to bent
said by bent :There is PLENTY of precedent for municipalities providing all sorts utility service. And it is all wrong.
said by bent :If you're in the camp that views broadband as a luxury service ... Of course it is. People can and have lived without it.
I like how you put in your signature a reference to the famous quote by Thoreau, but you advocate government providing a luxury service to people at the same time. I highly doubt any true libertarian would be in favor of any sort of government-provided luxury communications service.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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bent
not broken
Premium
join:2004-10-04
Longmont, CO
clubs:
·Comcast Formerly ..
| No, but I might advocate a municipal utility service that would allow business growth and expansion for the foreseeable future, rather than letting corporate greedheads cripple economic development by letting VDSL and DOCSIS be the future of broadband in America.
By your argument, electricity, sewer, water, and refuse services, all frequently owned and operated by The People, are luxuries. Go live in a cave.
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»www.lp.org/issues/family-budget.shtml
"That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| reply to jhboricua
said by jhboricua :Except in this case the city can tell Arinc to get lost. The taxpayers are still left holding the bag here. Where is the accountability?
said by jhboricua : They can't realistically to that to the incumbents. It shouldn't make any difference which company is involved here. If my town had spent $800K hiring Verizon to do the same thing and they screwed up, I would be just as shillful.
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. |
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fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| reply to pnh102
You are 100% correct in what you say! There is only, however, one exception I'd sway on a little and that is that this just outlines the importance of paying attention to who you vote for.
Those involved are the mouth pieces of "we the people" for St Louis Park and the people got what they elected. He should/will surely pay the price when he asks the people for the grace of keeping his/their job.
I wonder what wedge issue the people voted for to put these people in office? (tongue in cheek off) |
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fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| reply to SilverSurfer
.. and I agree with him, so I must be a telco shill now too. ... and to think, all this time, I was a Cable shill.
The internet is not something that the tax payers need or should be paying for. It's not cheaper in the long run and if you really wanted to have better internet, as a city planner, I'd be working with the incumbents AND not being loose and irresponsible like everyone else in the past has with them.
When the taxpayer, that's us in case you don't know, put out this kind of money to fund and internet project, AND then you get to pay a monthly rate ON TOP OF THAT for services (which usually aren't much better than the incumbent) and you ALSO get to subsidize the upkeep of the system - how good of a deal was it considering the speeds and services aren't much better, if not worse?
Shill? ok. |
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fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| reply to bent
said by bent :Shameless Shill. A term thrown at someone when they have nothing better to say.
There is PLENTY of precedent for municipalities providing all sorts utility service. Most often these infrastructure builds are funded by the issuance of bonds which are paid back out of the revenues the services generates. Please provide a list of these providers which have and are turning a profit TO pay off these bonds..
If you're in the camp that views broadband as a luxury service, you should check into... I am one of those too. Until society has "legally" proclaimed the internet a utility, it remains a luxury. We are, after all, a nation of laws and we go by those laws.. not by what ever fits the individual's desire at the time.
Save the astroturfing for grandma dial-up who still buys it.
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jhboricua
ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-06
Minneapolis, MN
clubs:
| reply to fiberguy
said by fiberguy :The internet is not something that the tax payers need or should be paying for. Your personal opinion.said by fiberguy :It's not cheaper in the long run And this blanket statement is based on?said by fiberguy : and if you really wanted to have better internet, as a city planner, I'd be working with the incumbents AND not being loose and irresponsible like everyone else in the past has with them. You obviously have never worked in such capacity if you think you can make such an absurd statement.said by fiberguy :When the taxpayer, that's us in case you don't know, put out this kind of money to fund and internet project, AND then you get to pay a monthly rate ON TOP OF THAT for services (which usually aren't much better than the incumbent) and you ALSO get to subsidize the upkeep of the system - how good of a deal was it considering the speeds and services aren't much better, if not worse? Pulling more fluff our of your rear I see. But we expected nothing less from industry shills. Go ahead and tell the Utopia users their service isn't much better than Qwest DSL. Just duck when they snort your way.said by fiberguy :Shill? ok. Looks like it.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA * |
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bent
not broken
Premium
join:2004-10-04
Longmont, CO
clubs:
·Comcast Formerly ..
edit:
January 24th, @08:20PM
| reply to fiberguy
Rather than make a rats nest of quotes, I'll simply go down the list one at a time.
1. I think what I'm saying is topical and clear. If you disagree, it's probably because you're unwilling to bite the hand that feeds. Am I far off?
2. The Platte River Power Authority. Since you didn't specify that it needed to be a muni residential broadband provider, I'll just provide a link for my local power utility, who, by strange coincidence, has built a nice fiber ring not only throughout the communities it serves but regionally as well. All this without spending tax dollar number one. If you doubt their profitability, you'll need to look at the financials. PRPA unfortunately don't provide retail services, and I don't know very many residential customers in the market for an OC48.
The problem comes when the local utility companies think about using existing rights-of-way to deliver service at the retail level, in competition with Qwest and Comcast (who only offers 3 HD chanels we can't get over the air here  ). They get hamstrung at every corner by protectionist politics funded by super-regional and national corporations, and are forced to turn to half-assed wireless solutions that invariably run into trouble for several reasons; mostly underfunding and mismanagement of the private companies contracted to build and operate them and the obvious inferiority of broadcast wireless vs. glass and plastic in the ground.
3. In these cases, it's obvious that the laws are bought and paid for by incumbents whos only motive is profit. Delivering future (much less current) technology is only a priority when it seems that someone else might gain a competitive edge that they haven't been able to legislate away.
I've sold services door to door for both cable companies and ILECs across the western US, and I can say with full confidence that if I could offer a full HD and NTSC channel line up, 20meg symmetrical data, and voice, at competitive prices, (something a fiber ring like ours is BUILT to do) I'd stomp Qwest and Comcast's dicks in the dirt at every pass.
Where is the freedom when we let giant corporations play profit games with our futures by legislating out any competition that isn't already entrenched and committed to the same mediocre standards of service?
Edit for typo
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»www.lp.org/issues/family-budget.shtml
"That government is best which governs least" - Thoreau |
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jhboricua
ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-06
Minneapolis, MN
clubs:
| reply to fiberguy
said by fiberguy :Please provide a list of these providers which have and are turning a profit TO pay off these bonds.. Almost all of these ventures are very young and only a few have reached full deployment and you know that. Making such a ridiculous request only furthers the notion that you're a shill.
Has Verizon turned profit on their FIOS deployment?
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Jose A. Hernandez * System Admin * MPLS, Minnesota, USA * |
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factchecker
@cox.net
| reply to pnh102
Yes, let's completely ignore the fact that the private company was the one who screwed up here, not the local government, by poorly designing and implementing their setup...
And that is where the buck stops - Private enterprise screwed this pooch. |
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fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| reply to jhboricua
Yea.. you really proved I'm a shill.
let me turn it to you this way in return.. show me a good history and track record of anything government does that often pays for itself with out having to go back the tax payers over and over and over again to keep it going.
Funny.. if I'm a shill, you're socialist. |
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