Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA
| reply to TKJunkMail
Re: Hardly surprising - allofmp3 was a pirate outfit
It wasn't exactly a pirate outfit. They were operating completely within the Russian laws. The only problem became when Americans bought songs from them. Then you got into legal gray areas. (Which is why I never bought anything from them even though I liked their service in theory.) |
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Michael Albright
join:1999-11-16
Lakewood, OH
| Exactly my take, if they were to have limited themselves to Russian comsumers they likely wouldnt have been able to make as much profit, but laws are laws.
makes me think about off shore casinos and island based web-casinos  |
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LilYoda
Feline with squirel personality disorder
Premium
join:2004-09-02
Mountains
1 edit | reply to Jason Levine
said by Jason Levine  :It wasn't exactly a pirate outfit. They were operating completely within the Russian laws. My take on the issue as well. If there was something shady, I would say that it was more within ROMS and how ROMS was supposed to be repaying the royalties allOfMP3.com was sending ROMS than in allOfMP3.com itself.
I also don't see why allOfMP3.com wouldn't be allowed to operate within Russia, since the price they charge for an album is the price you pay for a CD in a music store in Russia (from what I read)
They can always implement IP filtering and block customers from countries where justice departments are considering the service illegal (like the US and the Netherlands)
EDIT: no taylor troll post yet??? I'm surprised...
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"the two most abundant things in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity." (Harlan Ellison) |
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tapeloop
1959. I try to kick the ball. I miss.
Premium
join:2004-06-27
Airstrip One
| said by LilYoda :I also don't see why allOfMP3.com wouldn't be allowed to operate within Russia, since the price they charge for an album is the price you pay for a CD in a music store in Russia (from what I read) With my limited knowledge of how the WTO works, I imagine that agreement to join the WTO requires that participating members honor (at least on the surface) the other member countries' trade-related laws, e.g. intellectual property. Just my guess.
And yet, China seems to get away with quite a lot. Hmmm.
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I cannot stand demagoguery. If you disagree with my stance, you're a blithering twit. You're not a twit, are you? |
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Kxpuc
join:2004-05-04
Houston, TX | lol yea china the land of the VCD's |
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LilYoda
Feline with squirel personality disorder
Premium
join:2004-09-02
Mountains
| reply to tapeloop
said by tapeloop :With my limited knowledge of how the WTO works, I imagine that agreement to join the WTO requires that participating members honor (at least on the surface) the other member countries' trade-related laws, e.g. intellectual property. Just my guess. Internationally yes. But locally?
I mean for exemple, the sale of Marijuana is illegal in the US, and legal in the netherlands. That doesn't prevent the Netherlands to be in the WTO.
Unless the RIAA, or a new version of the RIAA in Russia is mandated by the Russian government as the official copyright holder *in Russia*, then as far as I would understand it, ROMS would still bt the legal entity to collect copyright payment in Russia, for Russian customers.
So what Russia could do is force ROMS to pay back some of what it collects to the original copyright holder (which is where I believe that Russian law has to be modified), which would in turn increase ROMS fees, and allOfMP3.com's price
But shutting down allOfMP3, for Russian customers seems a bit surreal to me. If Russian people can still go to the store, buy a CD for $3, where the fee is payed to ROMS, and ROMS still doesn't pay a dime to the original artist or copyright holder, then what's next? The US will ask that Music stores in Moscow's streets be illegal?
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"the two most abundant things in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity." (Harlan Ellison) |
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BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| reply to Jason Levine
said by Jason Levine :It wasn't exactly a pirate outfit. They were operating completely within the Russian laws. The only problem became when Americans bought songs from them. Then you got into legal gray areas. (Which is why I never bought anything from them even though I liked their service in theory.) Yes they are pirates. Did the artists get thier money? No. who cares about Russian laws. If some country says that child porn is ok does that make it ok for Americans to view it then if the website is base in that country? No of course not. Why anyone would give money and personal info to a RUSSIAN website is beyond me. .ru is synomomous with SCAMS. I have any e-mail I get that has .ru in it to automatically be discarded before it even reaches my inbox. Sometimes people are idiots. Anyone that bought from them deserves to have their bank accounts and credit cards drianed dry. |
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tapeloop
1959. I try to kick the ball. I miss.
Premium
join:2004-06-27
Airstrip One
| reply to LilYoda
said by LilYoda :said by tapeloop :With my limited knowledge of how the WTO works, I imagine that agreement to join the WTO requires that participating members honor (at least on the surface) the other member countries' trade-related laws, e.g. intellectual property. Just my guess. Internationally yes. But locally? I mean for exemple, the sale of Marijuana is illegal in the US, and legal in the netherlands. That doesn't prevent the Netherlands to be in the WTO. I see your logic, but at the same time marijuana is not traded internationally between the US and the Netherlands. (At least not in the open market...  )
Unless the RIAA, or a new version of the RIAA in Russia is mandated by the Russian government as the official copyright holder *in Russia*, then as far as I would understand it, ROMS would still bt the legal entity to collect copyright payment in Russia, for Russian customers.
So what Russia could do is force ROMS to pay back some of what it collects to the original copyright holder (which is where I believe that Russian law has to be modified), which would in turn increase ROMS fees, and allOfMP3.com's price
But shutting down allOfMP3, for Russian customers seems a bit surreal to me. If Russian people can still go to the store, buy a CD for $3, where the fee is payed to ROMS, and ROMS still doesn't pay a dime to the original artist or copyright holder, then what's next? The US will ask that Music stores in Moscow's streets be illegal?
My theory is that that US, leveraged by the entertainment industry, in turn used its leverage to get Russia to shut down completely allofmp3.com rather than to leave it open and potentially available to US consumers.
I doubt that Russia would put the same pressure on the brick and mortar stores in its borders, but I think the US would.
I didn't say it makes sense. 
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I cannot stand demagoguery. If you disagree with my stance, you're a blithering twit. You're not a twit, are you? |
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nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
 ·Cox HSI
 ·Speakeasy
| reply to Jason Levine
said by Jason Levine :It wasn't exactly a pirate outfit. They were operating completely within the Russian laws. The only problem became when Americans bought songs from them. Then you got into legal gray areas. (Which is why I never bought anything from them even though I liked their service in theory.) The real lesson here, folks, is: globalization is ok when it benefits big business but not ok when it benefits the consumer.
-tom
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"Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficial. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." -Louis D Brandeis |
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scrummie02
Bentley
Premium
join:2004-04-16
Arlington, VA
| reply to LilYoda
they'll hardly do that. The US and UK are the biggest consumers. They will either relocate or find another loophole.
On another note I think their idea is good. No DRM. That's what I like. No vendor lock in and Linux was supported.
I'd pay 99 cents a track if I could have DRM-free tracks that will play on my FreeBSD box ripped at 320kps.
Oh well, I guess it's back to ripping CD's from used music stores 
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"I hate conservatives, but I really hate liberals." - Matt Stone
»www.reason.com/ |
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scrummie02
Bentley
Premium
join:2004-04-16
Arlington, VA
1 edit | reply to BF69
quote:
Yes they are pirates. Did the artists get thier money? No. who cares about Russian laws. If some country says that child porn is ok does that make it ok for Americans to view it then if the website is base in that country? No of course not. Why anyone would give money and personal info to a RUSSIAN website is beyond me. .ru is synomomous with SCAMS. I have any e-mail I get that has .ru in it to automatically be discarded before it even reaches my inbox. Sometimes people are idiots. Anyone that bought from them deserves to have their bank accounts and credit cards drianed dry.
so is .com. So should people stop doing web business altogether?
I don't care where the business is run if it's legit. Besides allofmp3.com had been operating for years before this hype. Not one complaint about anything fraudulent or that would be all over the news too, you can bet on that.
Your xenophobia is laughable........
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"I hate conservatives, but I really hate liberals." - Matt Stone
»www.reason.com/ |
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kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY
 ·T-Mobile US
1 edit | reply to BF69
said by BF69 :said by Jason Levine :It wasn't exactly a pirate outfit. They were operating completely within the Russian laws. The only problem became when Americans bought songs from them. Then you got into legal gray areas. (Which is why I never bought anything from them even though I liked their service in theory.) Yes they are pirates. No, they ARE NOT. If you can't grasp it, rather ask about it first.
Did the artists get thier money? No.
Yes and no. AoMP3 DID PAY the fees dictated by Russian laws.
who cares about Russian laws.
Who cares about US laws? Who cares about Tennessee laws?
I can't believe you people did buy into this RIAA-fed propaganda BS... open your eyes: it's NOT GOOD FOR YOU, not good for the US, not good for anybody, it's only serves the RIAA ilks!!!
If some country says that child porn is ok does that make it ok for Americans to view it then if the website is base in that country? No of course not.
What kind of BS is this? Childporn is NOT legal anywhere and is subjected to worldwide criminal agreements - bu8t theoretically yes, US has no business in other countries legal system - especially with our totally broken legal and legislative system, this 'best government and laaws money can buy' track record we have.
Why anyone would give money and personal info to a RUSSIAN website is beyond me.
It is just because you have a painfully narrow world of view and apparently you think your views MUST BE enforced for all of us.
Newsflash: apparently plenty of people think you are wrojng and don't want to do anything with your narrow-minded world.
Leave us alone with our choice, please. |
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Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA
| reply to BF69
said by BF69 :Yes they are pirates. Did the artists get thier money? No. who cares about Russian laws. Russians? Seriously, though, do you think that a site run and hosted in Russia should be bound by US laws? How about a site in the US being bound by Russian laws? Or is it ok to export US rules upon the world and not ok to have other countries' rules forced on us.
Here's the answer: Neither should be permitted. Sites should be expected to live up to the laws in the countries where they are hosted. To expect otherwise is to open a HUGE can of worms that could shut down virtually every website. (Imagine if China could dictate what sites shouldn't be allowed to operate because their content was illegal in China.) The only wrinkle to this would be if someone lives in one country and hosts a site in another country. Then they open themselves up for prosecution in either country.
As for the particular case of AllOfMP3.com, Russian law specified a compulsory license fee that had to be paid to an organization called ROMS. This means that AllOfMP3.com didn't need contracts with each record label. They could just take the songs and sell them and pay the compulsory fee to stay legal. ROMS didn't pay that money back to the rights holders, but that wasn't AllOfMP3's issue. (Of course, this is all supposing that Russians were the ones paying for the songs. When an American bought a song, the legality got a whole lot grayer.)
said by BF69 :If some country says that child porn is ok does that make it ok for Americans to view it then if the website is base in that country? No of course not. Nice Straw Man you have there. We're not talking about Child Porn. We're talking about copyrighted music. Bringing up Child Porn is just an attempt to sway an opinion based on "child porn is bad, therefore the other guy must be wrong since this argument is associating his position with child porn."
However, to turn your question back to copyrighted music: "If some country says that it is legal to buy copyrighted music in a fashion that is illegal in the US, does that make it ok for Americans to buy that music if the website is based in that country?"
Framed like this, I would say: Maybe. It actually all depends on import/export rules. For example, let's say you were to travel to Russia and buy a CD there. Now (from what I've heard), CDs there typically cost about $3 each. But CDs here cost about $15 (or more). Would it be legal for you, on a trip to Russia, to buy that $3 CD and take it home? Or should you be forced to pay an additional $12 for it when you cross customs?
Of course, downloading an item and buying a physical copy are two different actions. Right now there are no clear rules about this. It is one huge gray area (but one that I suspect will get less gray as time goes on).
said by BF69 :Why anyone would give money and personal info to a RUSSIAN website is beyond me. .ru is synomomous with SCAMS. I have any e-mail I get that has .ru in it to automatically be discarded before it even reaches my inbox. So .ru is synonymous with scams? Luckily AllOfMP3.com was a DOT COM and not a DOT RU.
I don't judge a site solely based on where it is hosted. You could just as easily get scammed by a .com, .uk, .eu, etc site. If you are getting any unsolicited e-mail from a company, you should junk it no matter what country code is in the URL.
I might be more careful with a site hosted in Russia, Turkey, etc, but I would also rely on other users who have used the site to form an opinion of it. I haven't heard of anyone being scammed from using AllOfMP3.com. Whatever the failings it might have in regard to US copyright law, it isn't an out and out scam.
said by BF69 :Sometimes people are idiots. Anyone that bought from them deserves to have their bank accounts and credit cards drianed dry. Of course, you could use a one-time use number with them and they wouldn't be able to drain anything dry. Customers using credit cards wouldn't be liable for any fraudulent charges over $50 (and even that amount is usually waived). Debit cards should never be used for online purchases even if the site is trustworthy. (After all, you never know when it will be hacked and have a spending spree put on the card.)
I just went to their registration page and it looks like they ask for a name (first and last), e-mail address, country, and language. I'm guessing that later on you would need to enter some credit card details (possibly including home address) to use your credit card on the site. However, I don't see anything severe that would invite identity theft. I don't see any requests for SSN, DOB, or Mother's maiden name, for example. |
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mrchris
We don't miss you Bush
Premium
join:2002-10-01
North Babylon, NY | reply to scrummie02
You really think artists get much from the so-called legitimate music stores (Rhapsody, iTunes and a slew of others)?? |
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guitarzan
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Skytop, PA
·epix
| reply to BF69
said by BF69 : If some country says that child porn is ok does that make it ok for Americans to view it then if the website is base in that country? No of course not. Looks as if those porn laws in other countries are about to change.
»www.cwfa.org/articles/11891/BLI/···ndex.htm
said by BF69 : Why anyone would give money and personal info to a RUSSIAN website is beyond me. .ru is synomomous with SCAMS. I have any e-mail I get that has .ru in it to automatically be discarded before it even reaches my inbox. Sometimes people are idiots. Anyone that bought from them deserves to have their bank accounts and credit cards drianed dry. All the pirate site has to do, is hand over the names and CC#'s, IP addresses of people who made on line purchases to avoid costly lawsuits or prosecution. Guess, we'll see how much honor there is among thiefs.
This will be the RIAA's wet dream come true. Don't fret, the RIAA will drain many bank accounts of allofmp3 users.When the RIAA comes a knockin', those people won't be a rockin' for long.
As corrupt as Russia is, they will not allow anything to curtail WTO membership. Putin would kick his own mother overboard, along with every user of and including allofmp3, in a heartbeat for WTO status.
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Its the Democrats fault. In fact it is the Speaker of House Polosi fault. Everything is the Democrats fault. Everything. Just like Everything was the Republicans Fault when they were in power. |
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BPLSUCKS
join:2006-04-26
Grand Ledge, MI | Nice that you use an article that is very biased twords judeo-christian beliefs. I love the anti-abortion and anti-choice bit at the end of it. Try and use unbiased news articles and not psuedo-news with opinions interjected. |
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pb5k
more cowbell
Premium
join:2005-11-16
Glendale, AZ
·Cox HSI
| reply to guitarzan
said by guitarzan :All the pirate site has to do, is hand over the names and CC#'s, IP addresses of people who made on line purchases to avoid costly lawsuits or prosecution. Guess, we'll see how much honor there is among thiefs. Hate to burst your bubble, but the Russkys don't have any credit card numbers. Their credit card payments were processed through a respectable company in the Netherlands, IIRC, and they won't be handing over any CC numbers lest they betray the trust of their users.
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"When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.'" --
Theodore Roosevelt |
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tapeloop
1959. I try to kick the ball. I miss.
Premium
join:2004-06-27
Airstrip One
| reply to guitarzan
said by guitarzan : As corrupt as Russia is, they will not allow anything to curtail WTO membership. Putin would kick his own mother overboard, poison his own mother with radioactive polonium along with every user of and including allofmp3, in a heartbeat for WTO status. Fixed it for ya.
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I cannot stand demagoguery. If you disagree with my stance, you're a blithering twit. You're not a twit, are you? |
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guitarzan
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Skytop, PA
·epix
| reply to BPLSUCKS
said by BPLSUCKS :Nice that you use an article that is very biased twords judeo-christian beliefs. Thank you
I would not use biased opinions, passed off as "news" that rejects Christian beliefs or promotes immoral decadent lifestyle, which opposes Christianity.
I understand, your hurt feelings when a " obviously biased" messenger like that, delivers the news of truth.
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Its the Democrats fault. In fact it is the Speaker of House Polosi fault. Everything is the Democrats fault. Everything. Just like Everything was the Republicans Fault when they were in power. |
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guitarzan
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Skytop, PA
·epix
| reply to pb5k
said by pb5k :Hate to burst your bubble, but the Russkys don't have any credit card numbers. Their credit card payments were processed through a respectable company in the Netherlands, IIRC, and they won't be handing over any CC numbers lest they betray the trust of their users. The Russians may not have credit card numbers.?
Can you rule out, with certainty, there are no Russians or Russian mafia, handling credit card accounts in that respectable company in the Netherlands.?
I guess, we'll have to wait and see the results, when that rickety house of cards topple.
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Its the Democrats fault. In fact it is the Speaker of House Polosi fault. Everything is the Democrats fault. Everything. Just like Everything was the Republicans Fault when they were in power. |
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