Airplane777
join:2004-06-20
2 edits | Easiest way to lug cinder blocks to top of building?
I'm proposing on doing a PTP shot, whereby I will have a tall non-penetrating tower on top of one of the buildings.
Those non-penetrating mounts usually use cinder blocks to hold them down.
So, what is the best way for me to lug cinder blocks to the top of a 35 foot tall building? There will be about 40 cinder blocks. And they weight around 25 to 30 pounds each.
I thought there may be some kind of winch system I could put on the roof to raise the cinder blocks. Doing it by arm power alone will be pertty exhausting.
Thanks much |
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mrbueno
join:2002-08-03
US | Shirpas. They work every time. |
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LLigetfa
join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
| Instead of cinder blocks, use patio slabs to create a surface to load up with bags of sacrete. The bags are softer on the shoulders as you climb the ladder with them. You can balance them on your shoulder and have both hands free to grab the ladder.
You can rent a ladder hoist that roofers use to hoist up bundles of shingles. Roofers also use roof mounted winches but getting the winch up there is as much work as the blocks.
»www.canadaspecialty.com/catalogu···ment.pdf
Or rent a Genie lift.
»www.rentaliftusa.com/ |
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Hydro27405
join:2004-12-31
Stillwater, MN | I prefer to use nieghbor kids, especialy the ones that act like they're the tough guy.
Hydro |
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LLigetfa
join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
| I'd be careful about casual hire... there could be an accident and lifelong bleeding from your wallet.
I'm guessing this is for the location you want to put a tower on the roof and not just a mast. Curious what the non-pen base costs out to vs. going up from the ground. Seems, IMHO to be an expensive way to save 35 feet of tower. At about $10 per foot, it would only cost around $350 for the tower sections to get to the height of the roof with a conventional bracketed tower from the ground. |
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superdog
I Need A Drink
Premium,MVM
join:2001-07-13
Lebanon, PA
| reply to Airplane777
said by Airplane777  : There will be about 40 cinder blocks. And they weight around 25 to 30 pounds each. Holy shit!!!. Is the tower a 30 footer or what???. It would be a LOT cheaper, easier and less time consuming to use a mast with guys. Not only that, but with a non pen. mast mount, You will only need about 8 cinder blocks to hold it down. Thats a lot less weight and load on the roof. 
--
»www.wavecrazy.net Join WISPA today! »www.wispa.org/ |
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Airplane777
join:2004-06-20
1 edit | Hi Tim, LLigetfa and all:
I don't like having all the weight on the roof either. I noticed that one of my competitors is using 3 or 4 of the tall non-pen roof mounts. 3 are Glen Martin and one is Trylon. They seemed pretty nice, but are quite expensive...also heavy.
Tall tower building and putting guyed masts up isn't really my thing. Maybe I can get someone local to sub contract that to. You know of anyone?
Tim, what size mast is used to fit onto the non pen. mast mount base? Is that a standard 1 1/4" tv mast or larger diameter?
LLigetfa was also talking to me about using a telescoping mast...I think it was from Wade. LLigetfa, were the 30A, 40A, and 50A the telescoping masts? I didn't get a chance yet to take a closer look yet. (I was spending a bunch of time figuring out my Monowall...lol).
I'm thinking more about guyed telescoping masts now that you two are encouraging in that direction. I assume I could just use a ladder to telescope down the mast, if I ever needed to work on it?
You know, I think I will crawl on top of their roof again tomorrow and take a second look to see if I can attach guy wires, so that I can use a non pen. with much less weight. |
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LLigetfa
join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
1 edit | reply to superdog
I already proposed a DIY using chainlink pipe to make a triangle to tie the guys to. Seems he's not interested or did not understand my description.
Doh! I should hit refresh before posting.
The 50 foot popup I linked to will fit onto the NPRM I linked to. The 30 foot popup will fit into the 10 foot tripod with ladder I linked to.
Raising a popup is easy. You leave it collapsed and guy it off securely at the 10 foot mark. Then you climb the ladder (either the built-in or a stepladder) and push up the remaining segments with all the guys pre-attached. You need to do this on a calm day as the guys on the remaining segments are slack until fully extended.
You calculate the tilt on the antenna and mount it while the mast is collapsed. You can adjust the azimuth later by rotating the whole mast. You can test the tilt accuracy by pulling the top of the mast off plumb forward and back and if need be, you collapse the mast, adjust, and extend it back out. You can also do like someone posted one time and make special climbing shoes to climb the mast. |
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LLigetfa
join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
| Here is a quick and dirty drawing.
The little squares are concrete sidewalk slabs.
The small triangle is the 10 foot tripod.
the big triangle is the guying points built with the top rail of chainlink fence. The top rail is swaged at one end to fit inside the other so you can join together as many sections as needed to build whatever size triangle. The forces on the guys should only pull them tighter but if you are worried about them coming apart, you can drill and pop rivet them together.
Follow my directions I posted to your other thread and you're done. |
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Airplane777
join:2004-06-20
1 edit | reply to LLigetfa
Hi LLigetfa:
I didn't understand your suggestion properly I think.
Thank you so much for your drawings.
I was swaying back and forth from the heavy towers to the guyed ones. I do appreciate all your input. I really am interested in a solution. My time in responding was hindered by me trying to get my Monowall working properly...lol.
I'll look closer at what you were saying, now that I have the Monowall finally configured properly.
I do admit that I don't have any experience in doing a guyed mast. But after reconsidering again from what you and Superdog said, I now think that is the best way. Especially since I noticed that I have enough room on the roof to spread out the guy wires. |
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Airplane777
join:2004-06-20
| reply to LLigetfa
Will the concrete sidewalk slabs be heavy enough to hold the large triangle in place during a heavy wind?
I will only need the mast to go up about 25 to 30 feet. I guess that can be done with just one guy point?
I'll have to visit Home Depot to see what kind of chain link fence rails they have that will let me construct a large triangle like that.
How do I connect the three points of the large triangle to the concrete slabs? Wouldn't a need several heavy concrete slabe at each triangle point, in order to keep the large triangle from moving on the roof during a wind? |
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LLigetfa
join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
| Use carriage through the slabs and the pipes. They have the dome shaped head that is smooth enough not to damage the roof. Put the slabs upside down so the smooth side is toward the roof as well. You can find the galvanized bolts in the chainlink fence section. Drill holes through the slab and dab a bit of epoxy at the square by the head to glue them into the slab. You can find other bits there as well to make a loop to tie the guys to.
Use bags of sacrete over the slabs and pipes for extra weight. No need to even open the bags and mix the stuff. They will get wet from rain and harden up so that when the bag deteriorates, you will be left with a chunk of hard concrete.
Masting needs to have a guy point every ten feet. You can see there is a guy ring at every union. |
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Airplane777
join:2004-06-20
1 edit | I may not need the large triangle, since there may be enough room to attach guy wires to the edges of the roof. I'm going to check tomorrow. So I won't need to make the large triangle frame then.
However, I still would like to understand how the triangle frame works, since I still may have need of it in the future.
Assuming I can attach the guy wires to the edge of the roof, what kind of attachment do I hook to the three points of attachment? Some kind of eye hook? I guess I'll need turn buckles. |
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Airplane777
join:2004-06-20
1 edit | reply to LLigetfa
Hi LLigetfa:
I was at Lowes a couple hours ago. I was checking on their fence rails. I found the couplers to make the fence rails longer and the ends that will let me connect the rails together for 60 degree angles for the tiangle. I can use this large triangle method, if I can't find three places on the roof to tie off the guy wires.
I only found 10 foot fence rails. Can they be bought in 20 foot sections? Or do I need to use a coupler to hook together 10 foot sections?
I remember seeing a telescoping pole at Lowes, similiar to the one on the Wade web site. Lowes doesn't have it any more. Radio Shack use to sell telescoping metal poles also, similiar to the one from Wade. Radio Shack doesn't have them any more either. So I might have to pay to get one shipped in.
So I did find the fence stuff that will let me build some of this system. Lowes didn't have any guy wire. I'll probably have to order that in also.
I guess I'm going to try for the guyed mast that you spoke of.
I might have a few more questions a little later. Thanks much LLigetfa. |
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LLigetfa
join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
| reply to Airplane777
The basics of how the triangle works is that it is a single large unit of ballast. If one corner were pulled on real hard, the other two corners will prevent it from sliding and translate the force into a vertical one. By comparison, three separate ballast sleds would have to be much heavier since they don't assist one another and can get dragged laterally by the force.
How you tie off to the edges of the roof pretty much will depend on what substantial structural material there is to attach to. You would probably have to remove some of the flashing to see what lies beneath and then go looking around the hardware store for something suitable. Look for hot dipped galvanized steel either in the fence section, dock (as in lake) hardware, electrical, or hurricane/earthquake hardware. |
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LLigetfa
join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
| reply to Airplane777
I buy mine at Menards and theirs is swaged at one end to fit inside the other. They have them in both 10 and 20 foot lengths. You should be able to use masting as it too is swaged at one end.
If you use couplers, make sure they are steel and you would want to put a couple of screws or rivets in them. If you cannot find steel couplers, you may have to make your own from pipe whose inside dimension is large enough to slip over the pipe. I would also toss a bag of sacrete over the pipe somewhere midpoint to keep it from deflecting.
I would not bother with the 60 degree couplers since you would be bolting them to the slabs anyway. Those couplers are usually made of crappy aluminium and offer no strength at all. |
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Airplane777
join:2004-06-20
4 edits | I figured I should put the pictures here, since it might help others.
These are the parts that I think may connect to the three large patio slabs. Except since the triangle was going to be so big, that I will use three 20 foot spokes.
My first picture above is the streatcher clamp (tension clamp) along with a turnbuckle. I think you said the streatcher clamp was also called a tension clamp (in the IM). The largest eye I could find wasn't big enough for the tension clamp to go through the eye (see picture). So I went to Lowes and found a seperate bolt with a much larger eye (see fourth picture). I think the tension clamp will fit through the large eye. From the picture, you can see the eye on the right side is much bigger then the eye on the left.
However the turnbuckle at Lowes was zinc plated. Is that bad? I could probably spray it to protect it from the weather, since it isn't galvanized.
The second picture is a close up of the tension clamp. Was that the one you were talking about? I can now see how the tension clamp can fig over the carrage bolt and be bolted down.
You mentioned using about using a shackle if I can't get large enough eye in the turnbuckle. The screw portion of the shackle seems like it can come open fairly easy. Maybe I can use some special thread locking glue to glue the threads tight after closing the shackle?
My third picture above is some kind of wire clamp, that maybe I can use to hold the guy wire tight after twisting it around the turnbuckle eye? Was that what you were talking about? |
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LLigetfa
join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
| Those turnbuckles are too small for my liking. Not as a matter of strength but of length. They don't give you much range of adjustment without having to re-rig the cable. The ones I like to use have about 8 inches of thread travel.
If you use shackles, the clevis pin should have a hole in it to tie it off so it cannot unthread. Those cable clamps look like they are too big for the gauge of guy wire unless that's your grandaughter holding it. The link I IM'd you has the aluminum sleeves that I like to put on the guys to cover the free end of wire for safety. I've been poked and scratched too often to let them run wild. If you don't have the special crimpers for them, you can close the smaller ones with tile nippers or a cold chisel and anvil. Those sleeves are stronger than the ones made for clotheslines but the closeline ones you can install after the fact because they are open on one side. |
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Airplane777
join:2004-06-20
| That is my hand holding the parts...lol.
I'm not sure where I go around here to get larger turnbuckles. I went to both Lowes and Home Depot, and that was the largest they had, that I could find. I'll call around tomorrow to some other hardware stores.
I'm pretty sure there were some smaller cable clamps that I saw at Home Depot.
Regarding the hole in the shackle, is the hole in the threaded end? I don't remember seeing any shackles with a hole in the end though.
You were talking about the free end of the wire scratching you. Wouldn't the small wire clamp hold the wires tight, so you wouldn't get scratched? I could put two small wire clamps on the ends of the guy wire to hold it tight? |
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Diddy1
join:2003-07-19
Sidney, NE
| reply to Airplane777
Airplane, if I read the post correctly, those were the largest turnbuckles you could find? Go to a local/Mom and Pop, hardware store. I got some with something like a 600lb rating for $11 each. They had plenty of range and are strong. Just don't forget to lube them up every few months. Not a big deal, but saves on wear.
Aaron |
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