woodward
XMission Broadband
VIP
join:2000-12-28
Salt Lake City, UT
| Let's talk routers
As a service provider in a fiber network (UTOPIA), we've discovered that the largest trouble we have is with typical home/SOHO networking hardware. Simply put, 15-30Mbps fiber connections seem to be too far ahead of the curve for most consumer grade products. Our lab testing shows that most flatline around 7-10 Mbps on the WAN port.
If anyone would like to pipe up and share their hardware and network configuration with speed results, I suspect I won't be the only person to find this information useful. |
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boethius
Boo-Yah
Premium
join:2002-01-28
Winters, CA
clubs:
| said by woodward  :If anyone would like to pipe up and share their hardware and network configuration with speed results, I suspect I won't be the only person to find this information useful. Speaking anecdotally, I would think you're absolutely right--most consumer products will not handle 10+ Mbps speeds off most ports, even though they may claim to be capable of handling it.
I would look at either building an embedded solution on something like a Soekris running Linux w/iptables and bridging software that you could rent to your users or looking to a third-party embedded hardware provider that might have more of a clue. Examples here:
»linuxdevices.com/articles/AT2005548492.html
Personally I'd love to see a router/gateway that had wireless, dual WAN, at least one miniPCI expansion slot, AND (this is the kicker) PoE capability on the internal switch so I could power VoIP phones. |
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fredwilson12
join:2005-04-20
Sacramento, CA
| reply to woodward
I had that problem with an older Cisco router I had, and I came across m0n0wall so decided to give it a try. Even with an older 400Mhz processor it could easily handle the 20Mbps connection I have. Since I have a rack, I went on eBay and purchased an IBM x300 eServer. With the 1 GHz processor, it can probably handle close to the full 100Mbps routing for if/when the day comes where I need that much. I was looking into a much smaller (physical) solution, but most of the routers which seemed to advertise speeds and features I need were starting at $400-500. The $200 price tag for the IBM machine was much more appealing to me.
Obviously this doesn't work for just about anyone else, so I think boethius' suggestions of looking at Soekris or other solutions is a good place to start. |
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cob_
1310nm Of Goodness
Premium
join:2003-07-08
Tulsa, OK
edit:
August 22nd, @10:39PM
| reply to woodward
Many home routers only have 10MB WAN ports on them, not to mention the lightweight processing power, so that sounds about right. I'm not lucky enough to need more than 4MB/s out of mine yet, but have become pretty unhappy with it locking up the wireless connectivity while using a VPN (outgoing). It's a DI-514 that cost $5 after a rebate, so I guess my expectations are a little high.
I've been looking at the Sonicwall TZ 170 for a client, and considering one for myself, but not too fond of the subscription model for optional feature sets. I'd like to go the Soekris route, but their options seem limited, or I can't seem to find possible hardware configurations with enclosures. The net4801 seems to be my best bet to add an 802.11g miniPCI card to and run one of the client ports to a gigabit switch.
I'd really like to see a Soekris board with expandable gigabit connectivity and at least 2 miniPCI connectors, to run an 802.11g card and a VPN accelerator, if they really are necessary.
I'd love to hear comments from people who have built wireless routers with VPN on the Soekris platform.
Having another machine in the house creating heat and making noise isn't appealing, which is why I want to stay away from setting up an old beige box as a router. |
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cyberbeing
join:2005-02-18
Sacramento, CA
 ·SureWest Internet
edit:
August 25th, @03:15AM
| reply to woodward
Personally I have a Linksys RV0041 and have to trouble getting 20Mbps+ speeds. Even though it just had a huge price drop its still a bit on the pricey side. The new Linksys RVS4000 is cheaper but looks very promising. I probably would have bought a RVS4000 if it was out when I was looking and save some money  . I would think that any of the Linksys business series (RV series) would probably work well for you guys. For my setup I have a RV0041 for wired and a WRT54Gv3 connected to it for wireless connectivity in my house.
As a side note the RV0041 is pretty beefy and is rated at 100Mbps (firewall throughput) and 70,000 concurrent sessions according to Linksys:
533Mhz Intel IXP425-533
64M of DRAM
Keep in mind that you could most likely get 20-30Mbps with lower specs than that.
Recently I tried installing Monowall on an old PII 333Mhz computer I bought for $10 and could easily get full speed on my 20Mbps/30Mbps connection.
Edit: Read bbarrera's comment |
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tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to woodward
Routers are a very competitive business so they only have enough CPU to meet "typical" demand so being at the bleeding edge speed wise it a problem.
The good news with Verizon rolling out FIOS and the Cablecos cranking up DOCSIS speed there will be more and more on the market.
My suggestion is to email all the home router vendors, explain the speed you need, ask for recommendations for which if any routers meet your requirements and ask for a sample for internal testing.
Once you are done post a recommended router list on your web page. Let the router vendors they should update you as they release new models.
/Tom |
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cyberbeing
join:2005-02-18
Sacramento, CA
·SureWest Internet
edit:
August 25th, @02:10AM
| said by tschmidt :My suggestion is to email all the home router vendors, explain the speed you need, ask for recommendations for which if any routers meet your requirements and ask for a sample for internal testing. Last year calling as a regular consumer I didn't have very good luck when calling companies (D-link, Linksys, Cisco, Juniper, Zywall, Watchguard) and asking which routers would support my speed (20Mbps+). They pretty much all said that that all their routers under $1000 were designed for DSL and Cable. I really hope this situation starts getting better soon with all these fast broadband roll-outs. Like tschmidt said if companies are willing to send you a samples for testing that would be the best bet. There are probably a good number of routers that can handle fast speeds but almost none that were designed with that in mind. |
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bbarrera
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-23
Sacramento, CA
clubs:
| I've had no problem with Zywall 2+ and 5 and 35 and 70. Cyberbeing bought my Zywall 5 but it failed to handle BT seeding (upload) traffic above 18Mbps. So I refunded his money and took it back. Then he tried my zw35 but it also locked up with upload traffic above 18Mbps. Note that is BT upload traffic, *no* problem with BT downloading at 20M and *no* problem running higher 20M/30M with "normal" web/email/dns traffic. The Zywalls have more features than RV0041 and that definitely impacts performance. In addition Zyxel has tested extensively after I reported Cyberbeing's problems and they tuned firewall for higher throughput.
One result of improved performance is the new zw2+ which sells for around $175. "Maxusa" posted test results and Zyxel has improved firewall throughput of zw2+ vs zw5 and zw35.
I'm not a typical router buyer so take this with a grain of salt -- I've looked at Linksys RV series after working with Cyberbeing last year but not impressed because I want a solid router with constantly updated firmware that provides lots of features so I can use router in a wide variety of network topologies and configurations. Unfortunately Linksys makes too many compromises although the RV0041 performance is outstanding. I've read comments on Linksys forum that "real" throughput of RV042 is around 10M so unless something has changed be careful of that router. And tests at Toms Hardware put RV082 at 20M throughput. While RVS4000 specs look great the feature set is small and current firmware needs time to mature and no telling how long that will take.
The Toms Hardware chart is an eye opener as they do real performance testing. The newer routers have more extensive test data, checkout total simultaneous throughput that pushes traffic both WAN-LAN and LAN-WAN
»www.tomsnetworking.com/lans_rout···hart=119
Explanation of testing procedure:
»www.tomsnetworking.com/2006/05/2···rs_2006/
Because of new router-specific CPUs in consumer routers I think many will be surprised how much firewall throughput performance your money can buy. I'm not crazy about feature set of devices on Tom's chart but the average Internet user will be happy. |
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woodward
XMission Broadband
VIP
join:2000-12-28
Salt Lake City, UT | reply to woodward
I often reference Tom's hardware guide for SOHO routers as well:
»www.tomsnetworking.com/2006/03/3···ge2.html |
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bbarrera
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-23
Sacramento, CA
clubs:
| reply to woodward
said by woodward :Simply put, 15-30Mbps fiber connections seem to be too far ahead of the curve for most consumer grade products. Our lab testing shows that most flatline around 7-10 Mbps on the WAN port. Have you lab tested the top routers on the chart? Seems like you've got a short list and after testing can recommend routers to your customers.
The Zyxel X-550 mimo router is #4 in Tom's chart, has QoS, and near wireline (100Mbps) firewall throughput. It is on sale for $40 after rebate at CompUSA thru tomorrow:
»www.compusa.com/products/product···e=335784
My fiber speeds depend on time of day. I've tested with and without Zywall router and speeds are practically the same. The best test partner for me is Surewest.com (my ISP, they host a BBR test server), and I can get 20M/35M at best of times when testing inside ISP network.
Outside my ISP network the best test partner is Megapath in San Francisco. Here are some test results:
Megapath SF test partner (outside ISP network)
2006-08-10 02:43:12 Speed test @ dslr-west1.megapath.net 17899/25956 kbps
2006-08-10 02:34:48 Speed test @ dslr-west1.megapath.net 16366/25036 kbps
2006-08-04 03:56:35 Speed test @ dslr-west1.megapath.net 18033/20267 kbps
2006-08-04 01:57:34 Speed test @ dslr-west1.megapath.net 17899/24526 kbps
2006-08-04 01:53:07 Speed test @ dslr-west1.megapath.net 17885/24108 kbps
2006-07-24 12:32:51 Speed test @ dslr-west1.megapath.net 17826/21683 kbps
2006-07-24 12:26:46 Speed test @ dslr-west1.megapath.net 14219/11787 kbps
2006-07-19 21:54:49 Speed test @ dslr-west1.megapath.net 17885/18728 kbps
Surewest test partner (inside ISP network)
2006-08-10 19:25:49 Speed test @ personal.surewest.com 16609/16085 kbps
2006-08-04 03:55:19 Speed test @ personal.surewest.com 18745/31413 kbps
I think Cyberbeing has even more impressive test results. |
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cyberbeing
join:2005-02-18
Sacramento, CA
·SureWest Internet
edit:
August 25th, @03:16PM
| reply to woodward
Here are the speed tests I took in the past month. Keep in mind that my connection is only rated at 20Mbps/20Mbps.
(Inside Surewest's Network)
2006-08-13 22:46:16 Speed test @ personal.surewest.com 20984/58823 kbps
2006-08-13 22:46:09 Speed test @ personal.surewest.com 21004/54794 kbps
2006-08-13 22:45:54 Speed test @ personal.surewest.com 20984/63829 kbps
2006-08-13 22:45:42 Speed test @ personal.surewest.com 20984/59113 kbps
2006-08-13 22:45:20 Speed test @ personal.surewest.com 21004/59113 kbps
2006-07-20 16:51:00 Speed test @ personal.surewest.com 21004/63829 kbps
(Outside Surewest's Network)
2006-08-13 22:50:54 Speed test @ speed-eq.etheric.net 20984/59113 kbps
2006-08-13 22:50:45 Speed test @ speed-eq.etheric.net 20984/51282 kbps
2006-08-13 22:50:38 Speed test @ speed-eq.etheric.net 21004/48000 kbps
2006-08-13 22:50:09 Speed test @ speed-eq.etheric.net 21004/59113 kbps
2006-08-13 22:49:56 Speed test @ speed-eq.etheric.net 20984/59405 kbps
2006-08-13 22:49:12 Speed test @ speed-eq.etheric.net 21004/51063 kbps
2006-07-23 14:57:18 Speed test @ speed-eq.etheric.net 20673/69767 kbps
2006-07-20 16:41:45 Speed test @ speed-eq.etheric.net 21004/76923 kbps
2006-07-20 16:40:39 Speed test @ speed-eq.etheric.net 21004/85106 kbps
2006-07-20 16:40:18 Speed test @ speed-eq.etheric.net 20390/55045 kbps
2006-07-20 16:41:45 Speed test @ speed-eq.etheric.net 21004/76923 kbps
2006-07-20 16:40:39 Speed test @ speed-eq.etheric.net 21004/85106 kbps
2006-07-20 16:40:18 Speed test @ speed-eq.etheric.net 20390/55045 kbps
2006-07-23 14:56:05 Speed test @ dslr-west1.megapath.net 20189/23405 kbps
2006-07-21 13:12:14 Speed test @ dslr-west1.megapath.net 20207/19421 kbps
2006-07-20 01:54:25 Speed test @ dslr-west1.megapath.net 20207/22998 kbps
2006-07-20 01:46:25 Speed test @ dslr-west1.megapath.net 20189/21490 kbps
2006-07-23 14:55:11 Speed test @ dslreports.linkline.com 19828/26490 kbps
2006-07-21 13:12:29 Speed test @ dslreports.linkline.com 19828/29484 kbps
2006-07-20 16:21:34 Speed test @ dslreports.linkline.com 19828/29629 kbps
2006-07-20 16:21:18 Speed test @ dslreports.linkline.com 19828/27459 kbps
2006-07-20 16:20:46 Speed test @ dslreports.linkline.com 19828/27459 kbps
2006-07-20 16:49:01 Speed test @ www.sonic.net 20692/33333 kbps
2006-07-20 16:48:46 Speed test @ www.sonic.net 20692/31914 kbps
2006-07-20 16:48:24 Speed test @ www.sonic.net 20692/32000 kbps
2006-07-20 16:44:06 Speed test @ sjc.speedtest.dslextreme.com 20692/40404 kbps
2006-07-20 16:43:41 Speed test @ sjc.speedtest.dslextreme.com 20692/33426 kbps
2006-07-20 16:43:30 Speed test @ sjc.speedtest.dslextreme.com 20408/36585 kbps
2006-07-20 16:43:14 Speed test @ sjc.speedtest.dslextreme.com 20390/34883 kbps
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bbarrera
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-23
Sacramento, CA
clubs: | Those speeds are insane, and I know you had them out a few times to tune the connection. I gotta call Surewest because my 20M/20M is definitely capped at 18M downloads, never seen anything higher. |
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cyberbeing
join:2005-02-18
Sacramento, CA
·SureWest Internet
| Unlike DSL and Cable providers, Active FTTP Fiber networks like Surewest's and UTOPIA's how no excuse not to give customers 100% of the bandwidth they pay for. The connection is not shared or split and all Active FTTP networks are built with the capacity to give up to a 100Mbps link. So if you can't can't get 20Mbps at the Surewest speed test (3ms hop) then they have plenty of unused bandwidth to fix the problem.
Now back on topic, Routers. The RV0041 doesn't have any problems with fast fiber connections. It wouldn't really be a great choice for you guys to sell to your customers. Its in a big metal box ~12"X18" and it has a 100Mbps SFP (small-fiber plugable) WAN port which I don't think you would use.
The RVS4000 would probably be a better bet than the RV0041 (smalled box, no SFP) but like bbarrera said linksys can sometimes be a bit slow fixing problems in their firmware(usually VPN issues it seems). It also looks like according to their data sheet the router was designed with 20Mbps+ internet in mind and when its selling retail for only about $100-125 online that price seems like a really good value for a 4 port Gibabit router.
said by Linksys.com :
With broadband speeds increasing beyond 20Mbps, many of the existing 10/100 gateways
do not have the processing power to support these higher data rates, becoming the
bottleneck in the network. The RVS4000 10/100/1000 4-Port VPN Router operates at Gigabit
speeds to meet the demands of today's networks. It features Linksys' proven SPI Firewall with
an integrated Intrusion Detection and Prevent System (IDS/IPS). |
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