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JoeG4
join:2001-12-16
945941
 ·AT&T DSL Service
 ·Comcast
 ·Clearwire Wireless
 ·Vonage
| reply to fonzbear2000
Re: never pay full price for high speed again!!!
No matter what, I get stuck paying $50-60 a month in the end, so unless it decides to skyrocket past that, I don't bother.
SBC with 3mbps service cost me $54 a month
SBC with 1.5mbps service (originally) cost me $56 per month (IIRC)
comcast with "6mbps" service (more like 2.4mbps) costs me $60 a month
In the end, I stopped bothering with Ma Bell because the 1 year contracts got on my nerves (if they don't want to lose me as a customer they should focus on treating me like a customer, not like a criminal that's going to walk off after 6 months with a free modem).
Actually, I'm kinda fed up with SBC and their contract menalitty! WTF man it's 2006 not 1999, it doesn't cost $200 to bring up a DSL circuit anymore, and I have more than 1 DSL modem laying aronud that still works fine, I'm sure a bunch of other people do too by now, so why is SBC still acting as if nobody's ever gotten a modem and giving you the privilege to have one if you commit to a year?
That and their new privacy policy stinks, I'd rather pay for my overpriced 2.4mbps service  | |
Morty
Premium
join:2004-09-18
| It's simple fraud, that's all it is.
fraud (frôd)
n.
1. A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.
2. A piece of trickery; a trick.
3.
1. One that defrauds; a cheat.
2. One who assumes a false pose; an impostor. | |
Rick
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-06
Waterbury, CT
clubs: 
| said by Morty  :It's simple fraud, that's all it is. fraud (frôd) n. 1. A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain. 2. A piece of trickery; a trick. 3. 1. One that defrauds; a cheat. 2. One who assumes a false pose; an impostor. It's not fraud to follow the rules. Most if not all of these promotional offers have conditions attached to them and, providing someone follows them, why not do this if they're so inclined to?
Someone subscribing to a comcast deal through the likes of broadband offers can pay 19.99 for 6 months..get a free modem plus 100.00 cash back.
That equates to over 330.00 in savings and/or a free product offer.
That's a lot of money and undoubtedly worth peoples time to pursue.
I signed up for the adelphia equivalent offer when I got adelphia and while it wasn't for that much savings, it was still well worth it.
And, for what it's worth, I had no problems with broadbandoffers.com at all and received my rebates within the specified times.
--
The life you help save just might be your own Team Discovery | |
Daddio1949
join:2000-12-13
Rockville, MD
| reply to Morty
I signed up for their promotions, ordered high speed internet, and submitted for the rebates.
I don't think taking advantage of these promotions is fraud. Those who took advantage of the promotion do subscribe to high speed internet, and the individual promotions do not prohibit the multiple rebate-dipping. There is no deception or trickery involved. Consequently, no fraud is involved.
Is it fraud when a company misprices a product and you purchase it? You did not trick the company in this case when the seller does not monitor its price. If an ISP fails to monitor its rebate promotions, then it is not my fault.
fraud (frôd)
n.
1. A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.
2. A piece of trickery; a trick.
3.
1. One that defrauds; a cheat.
2. One who assumes a false pose; an impostor.
| |
Morty
Premium
join:2004-09-18
| said by Daddio1949 :I signed up for their promotions, ordered high speed internet, and submitted for the rebates. I don't think taking advantage of these promotions is fraud. Those who took advantage of the promotion do subscribe to high speed internet, and the individual promotions do not prohibit the multiple rebate-dipping. There is no deception or trickery involved. Consequently, no fraud is involved. Is it fraud when a company misprices a product and you purchase it? You did not trick the company in this case when the seller does not monitor its price. If an ISP fails to monitor its rebate promotions, then it is not my fault. fraud (frôd)
n.
1. A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.
2. A piece of trickery; a trick.
3.
1. One that defrauds; a cheat.
2. One who assumes a false pose; an impostor.
The idea behind the promotion is for New Subscribers only. It is understandable if you are switching service providers perhaps once, due to a problem with a previous service from another company (right, it's a free market). However, if you are obtaining a promotion that is designed for New Customers only (people who have not have Comcast within at least the past 24 months) or you are purposely switching back and forth between companies for the sole purpose to obtain promotions -- is fraud, or in the very least, by accepting a promotion that is listed for new comcast subscribers only is conspiracy to commit fraud.
Is it jail time or legal actions? No.
Is it wrong, yes.
Does it affect the price of service offered to existing customers? Yes.
This all falls under the first definition "A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.". By canceling your service with the intention of restarting your service 6 months later is deception, as you are posing to Comcast as a New Subscriber when restarting your service. Clearly (given the intent of this thread -- "Never pay full price for High Speed again!!!") the deception is used to unfairly gain a discounted rate... a rate that would not be offered to you if you stayed with Comcast as an existing customer those 6 months. | |
Daddio1949
join:2000-12-13
Rockville, MD
| The idea behind the promotion is for New Subscribers only. It is understandable if you are switching service providers perhaps once, due to a problem with a previous service from another company (right, it's a free market). However, if you are obtaining a promotion that is designed for New Customers only (people who have not have Comcast within at least the past 24 months) or you are purposely switching back and forth between companies for the sole purpose to obtain promotions -- is fraud, or in the very least, by accepting a promotion that is listed for new comcast subscribers only is conspiracy to commit fraud.
Is it jail time or legal actions? No.
Is it wrong, yes.
Does it affect the price of service offered to existing customers? Yes.
This all falls under the first definition "A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.". By canceling your service with the intention of restarting your service 6 months later is deception, as you are posing to Comcast as a New Subscriber when restarting your service. Clearly (given the intent of this thread -- "Never pay full price for High Speed again!!!") the deception is used to unfairly gain a discounted rate... a rate that would not be offered to you if you stayed with Comcast as an existing customer those 6 months.
There is no deception going on here when you switch internet providers. If the internet provider's rules, for example, declares you a new subscriber after 60 or 90 days, and you return to the internet provider after their time limit, there is no deception going. We are playing the game according to the rules of the internet provider.
Please explain
where the deception is?
Where do you get the 24 months criterion from?
Are you making up the rules as you go along?
Do you own stock in Comcast?
Is this wrong? No and hell no. I believe that Comcast declares you a new customer after a couple on months. After those few months are up if Comcast considers me a new customer, then so be it.
Does it affect the price of service offered to existing customers? No. I already answered this question; high speed internet is a cash-cow for Comcast.. They make a profit off new customers and make an even larger profit off existing customers. They are virtually in monopoly position for high speed internet for many. Don't tell me that Comcast and Verizon are fierce competitor's when they only compete on the speed of the internet and not price.
I have browsed the forums here and most people do not switch between dsl and cable for various reasons, e.g. problems in installation and the hassle. Consequently, it is not even worth Comcast's effort to monitor such behavior. | |
CableTool
Poorly Representing MYSELF.
Premium
join:2004-11-12
| said by Daddio1949 :Does it affect the price of service offered to existing customers? No. I already answered this question; high speed internet is a cash-cow for Comcast.. They make a profit off new customers and make an even larger profit off existing customers. Ar you making up the rules as you go along? Can you show where it states that customers leaving a provider for another DOESNT affect prices or that internet is a cash cow and 100% profit as you have stated in the past?
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(¸.•´ (¸.•'
Technicians -Unplugged | |
Morty
Premium
join:2004-09-18
| reply to Daddio1949
It's deception because if you stayed as a Comcast customer, that promotion would not be available to you. So you are leaving with the intent on returning only to gain the discounted rate that would otherwise not be available to you.
Also, cable equipment costs a lot. Never mind that when Comcast bought ATT Broadband they took on a lot of debt. People seem to think that Comcast and Verizon have a huge surplus of money. That's because they borrow, the price of HSI helps them pay it back, as it costs a lot of money for them to actually offer it to you.
As for when it comes to the "number of days". Technically it is suppose to be 90Days you are not eligible for ANY promotions from disconnecting (this is what stops people from disconnecting for a week when they go on vacation, and then turning it back on again to get a promotion). However, depending on your area, sometimes there are exceptions. When it comes down to it, service providers will not deny you service. They'd rather have you paying 19$/mo then 0$/mo, but you're still cheating the system, and that's still wrong. | |
Goober
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
·Comcast
·WOW Internet and C..
| Bottom line is that it's not illegal and not against Comcast policy. If they don't want churning then they should do something about it.
Maybe they can take my $600 a year they won't get out of the CEO's $18.4M total pay package for 2005 or the $33.5M for 2004. Wait, can you hear that . . . it's the world's tiniest violin playing a sad song for Comcast.
Give me a break with all this feel-sad-for-Comcast crap. | |
Morty
Premium
join:2004-09-18
1 edit | I don't think there's any "feel-sad-for-Comcast-crap". What it comes down to is if people did the same thing with other companies, or followed the same logic just with more money, it is illegal. Lots of people seem to think cheating a company of money is justified if it's just Comcast, or if it's just Verizon.
And people who say "Company X should do something about it" I'm sorry, that's just an excuse. Companies don't put strict measures up because not enough people do it, does that mean it is justified to do it? NO.
Under your logic, it's not illegal to speed past the speed limit on a highway if there are no police officers there to enforce it.
And if there is only 1 person on that highway who speeds out of the thousands that travel on it, is it justified for the Police to pay for a Police Officer to watch everyone on that highway if they're speeding (with a cost in the thousands) only to hand the person a ticket for a few hundred at max? No, it's not worth it. Does that mean it is ok for that one person to speed then? NO it isn't.
If a company has to change policies, make adjustments to billing systems, hire more people to stop customers from doing this, that only costs them more money. The point being is most people have ethics and don't do this kind of thing, so there really isn't any justification for a company to spend more money to stop it, but again.... In no way does this justify for what you are doing. And for the loss in revenue from customers who do this... it's easier to just rate hike the price for everyone else. | |
Daddio1949
join:2000-12-13
Rockville, MD
| reply to CableTool
Ar you making up the rules as you go along? Can you show where it states that customers leaving a provider for another DOESNT affect prices or that internet is a cash cow and 100% profit as you have stated in the past?
Nor can you show where it states the opposite that customers leaving a provider does affect prices. Just because you say its so, doesn't make it so.
Here is why the promotional offerings do not affect the loyal customers. The cost structure of the cable and telephone companies is largely a sunk cost. They recovered most of their cost through cable TV. When high speed internet came along they were able to piggy-back on their cost for cable TV. Their cost are largely fixed, an increase or decrease in customers are easily handled by their current equipment. Effectively, they are spreading their fixed cost over a greater volume. Their variable cost increase slightly with an additional customer and their revenue increase by even more. Many, if not most, of the increase in customers remain with Comcast and wind up paying more, who serve to increase profit. Have you forgotten that Comcast was granted a monopoly by the county governments. If Comcast sees this as a problem, how come they do have contracts?
It's deception because if you stayed as a Comcast customer, that promotion would not be available to you. So you are leaving with the intent on returning only to gain the discounted rate that would otherwise not be available to you.
Where is the deception. When I rejoined Comcast, they even gave be back my old customer number. They know that I have been a customer several times before. Clearly, Comcast knows that I was customer before. In fact, they welcomed me back. Who have I deceived? I think that you are deceiving yourself here.
Bottom line is that it's not illegal and not against Comcast policy. If they don't want churning then they should do something about it.
So true. | |
Daddio1949
join:2000-12-13
Rockville, MD
| reply to Morty
If a company has to change policies, make adjustments to billing systems, hire more people to stop customers from doing this, that only costs them more money. The point being is most people have ethics and don't do this kind of thing, so there really isn't any justification for a company to spend more money to stop it, but again.... In no way does this justify for what you are doing. And for the loss in revenue from customers who do this... it's easier to just rate hike the price for everyone else.
This is not ethical issue, its a business issue. Comcast is selling a product. No fraud or deception has occurred. If they allow me to obtain a better price, then its not my fault that I am not paying full price. I suppose that you also feel customers, who haggle for a better price in a car dealership, then cause the price for all other customers to be higher. Are the hagglers deceiving anybody? | |
Morty
Premium
join:2004-09-18
| reply to Daddio1949
said by Daddio1949 :Nor can you show where it states the opposite that customers leaving a provider does affect prices. Just because you say its so, doesn't make it so. It's built into the pricing of ANY company. You work in the restaurant business, part of the cost of the meal that is provided to you is the "lost sales" cost. That is, if you order a steak, and it is over cooked, and it is sent back to the kitchen, part of the cost for that steak is included on top the food cost for the steak itself. It is expected that not every steak will be perfect, and that a certain percentage of steaks will be sent back. This is calculated into the cost of the steak when you originally purchased it.
This is no different from any other company, when you purchase your cable you pay XX.XX per month, this cost includes a % of costs for trouble calls, repair/upgrades and to no surprise lost customers on top of the cost to provide the service as is, and on top of a sustained profit!
said by Daddio1949 :Here is why the promotional offerings do not affect the loyal customers. Yes, promotional offers as offered do not affected existing customers. That is to say, if new people are signing up, they are helping to lower the operating costs if they are within the existing footprint. However, if an existing customer is getting a constantly discounted rate, then this does affect the cost, and this is calculated in to the price as explained above.
said by Daddio1949 :Where is the deception. When I rejoined Comcast, they even gave be back my old customer number. They know that I have been a customer several times before. Clearly, Comcast knows that I was customer before. In fact, they welcomed me back. Yes, there is nothing wrong with it, if your intentions are legitimate. If you have legitimate reasons for moving back and forth between providers there is not a problem. If you are however, moving back and forth only as a "new subscriber" to obtain a promotion that would not be available to you as an existing subscriber, that is where the deception comes in to play. Many people don't sign up under the same name. Many people put if under there wife's name, there daughters name etc all to get around the system.
said by Daddio1949 :So true. See the post above, *so wrong*. It's a simple case of ethics, something fewer and fewer people have anymore. | |
Morty
Premium
join:2004-09-18
| reply to Daddio1949
said by Daddio1949 :If a company has to change policies, make adjustments to billing systems, hire more people to stop customers from doing this, that only costs them more money. The point being is most people have ethics and don't do this kind of thing, so there really isn't any justification for a company to spend more money to stop it, but again.... In no way does this justify for what you are doing. And for the loss in revenue from customers who do this... it's easier to just rate hike the price for everyone else.
This is not ethical issue, its a business issue. Comcast is selling a product. No fraud or deception has occurred. If they allow me to obtain a better price, then its not my fault that I am not paying full price. I suppose that you also feel customers, who haggle for a better price in a car dealership, then cause the price for all other customers to be higher. Are the hagglers deceiving anybody? If they have legitimate means to haggle for a lower price then it is valid. IF however, for example, their reason for haggling is "I've never bought a dodge before" -- yet they drove to the dealership in a dodge. Then this would be deceiving, to get a gain that would not be offered to someone who just walked in and asked to buy the car.
Car dealerships are also a bad example, seeing as Dealerships use the "haggle for lower prices" as a selling point, Verizon, Comcast etc clearly do not. Also, it's to no surprise that almost all of the major car companies are in a hole. | |
Daddio1949
join:2000-12-13
Rockville, MD
| reply to Morty
Yes, there is nothing wrong with it, if your intentions are legitimate. If you have legitimate reasons for moving back and forth between providers there is not a problem. My motives are legitimate, to get the cheapest price possible. Comcast's motives are legitimate too, to make the highest profit possible.
It's built into the pricing of ANY company. You work in the restaurant business, part of the cost of the meal that is provided to you is the "lost sales" cost. That is, if you order a steak, and it is over cooked, and it is sent back to the kitchen, part of the cost for that steak is included on top the food cost for the steak itself. It is expected that not every steak will be perfect, and that a certain percentage of steaks will be sent back. This is calculated into the cost of the steak when you originally purchased it.
I would accept this argument it were true about the cable and telephone industry. The cable and telephone industry are monopolies; they have the ability to set prices. Currently, only two percent of all Americans have more than one cable company to choose from, but those lucky few are paying 10 to 20 percent less than the rest of us who subscribe to cable. That's because the cable industry has evolved as a local monopoly, with little government, consumer or rate protections. As a result, cable companies for the most part have been able to raise rates without the check of competition or any meaningful regulation.
Industry consolidation has also contributed to rising cable rates. Reports from the federal government's investigative arm, the Government Accountability Office (GAO), found in a study of cable prices that as cable companies get larger, and as they cluster and dominate regional areas, prices rise faster. | |
Goober
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
·Comcast
·WOW Internet and C..
1 edit | reply to Morty
said by Morty :I don't think there's any "feel-sad-for-Comcast-crap". What it comes down to is if people did the same thing with other companies, or followed the same logic just with more money, it is illegal. Lots of people seem to think cheating a company of money is justified if it's just Comcast, or if it's just Verizon. And people who say "Company X should do something about it" I'm sorry, that's just an excuse. Companies don't put strict measures up because not enough people do it, does that mean it is justified to do it? NO. Under your logic, it's not illegal to speed past the speed limit on a highway if there are no police officers there to enforce it. And if there is only 1 person on that highway who speeds out of the thousands that travel on it, is it justified for the Police to pay for a Police Officer to watch everyone on that highway if they're speeding (with a cost in the thousands) only to hand the person a ticket for a few hundred at max? No, it's not worth it. Does that mean it is ok for that one person to speed then? NO it isn't. If a company has to change policies, make adjustments to billing systems, hire more people to stop customers from doing this, that only costs them more money. The point being is most people have ethics and don't do this kind of thing, so there really isn't any justification for a company to spend more money to stop it, but again.... In no way does this justify for what you are doing. And for the loss in revenue from customers who do this... it's easier to just rate hike the price for everyone else. Speeding is statutorily illegal. Changing cable providers when you aren't under any kind of contract is what? I can't even say it's unethical, since I'm not sure what ethics you think people violate by doing this.
On a very base level, this is a purely business transaction. Comcast sets forth T&Cs and AUPs that need to be agreed upon before receiving services. There is a contractual agreement between the parties. If I operate in ways that are contrary to the provisions of the contract, then I am in breach and Comcast can terminate the agreement (my services). If I take certain actions outside the contract, which is not covered by any of the provisions, and it's not illegal, then the person writing the contract needs to rewrite the document or change the provisions if he doesn't like that behavior.
This is how business works. | |
Daddio1949
join:2000-12-13
Rockville, MD
| reply to Morty
Hey guys lets talk about Comcast business model of making promotions. Why does Comcast's promotion involve rebates and not just provide a large discount? For example, if you sign up through Circuit City, you will receive $50 gift card if you send in the first month's bill. Why doesn't Comcast lower the price to $10/month for 5 months and make the 6th month $20. The customer gets his $50 rebate through a larger discount. Comcast does not have to manage a rebate program, the customer does not have to submit for it. It seems pretty simple to me. Comcast knows, as well as every company that offers rebates, that few customers submit for the rebate. At least I'm upfront about I do; I can't say the same about Comcast. What a sleazy firm you are defending?
How many of us feel that the rebates never come? If the practice of rebating is reasonable practice, then so is fliping one ISP for another. | |
Morty
Premium
join:2004-09-18 | reply to Goober
Right, you over look my point. It's not about switching service providers. It's about getting a promotion that's for New Customers only, when you're really not. That's it. | |
Daddio1949
join:2000-12-13
Rockville, MD
| Right, you over look my point. It's not about switching service providers. It's about getting a promotion that's for New Customers only, when you're really not. That's it.
You still do not get it. No deception has occurred. I have the freedom in this country to get broadband from any provider available. I never told Comcast that I'm a life time customer. As long as I pay my bills and abide by their rules, I'm a good customer. There is no deception whatsoever.
My comparison about a car delealership is this. I choose to go to a dealer and try to get the lowest price possible. You choose to pay list price. If I get a lower price, it doesn't cost you more if you come in after me. The dealer just makes less money on me than you.
What car I drove there has no bearing on the business dealer of buying a new car? So, your counter argument does not make sense. | |
Morty
Premium
join:2004-09-18
| I think I've made my point very clear. YOU seem to be the one not understanding it and seem to think I'm saying "you can't switch providers". What I'm saying I find wrong is people who purposely go back and forth to get promotions, while a normal "loyal" customer pays the full rate is wrong.
It's a matter of opinion, that's why this topic has been argued to death a bunch of times before, and will be in the future I'm sure. However, I think I've explained to the best of my ability my views, and there's many others who agree with it. Just as there's many who agree with yours. But for this topic, I think I'm done.  | |
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