chemaupr
join:2005-06-06
Alexandria, VA | Wonder how many used then?
So if the doc is so bad??? How is that several vendors have been able to use it? What they want a M$ programer that can help the build their own software? |
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Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA | They want a piece of M$'s cash cow. They don't want proper documentation, they just had to make a ridiculous demand that M$ would never comply with so they can start levying fees. |
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N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
 ·Verizon FIOS
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| said by Ahrenl  :They want a piece of M$'s cash cow. They don't want proper documentation, they just had to make a ridiculous demand that M$ would never comply with so they can start levying fees. The European Union and Montgomery County, MD.
Two great extortionists who work great apart!
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Never ask what sort of a computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac user, he'll tell you. If not, why embarrass him? -Tom Clancy |
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blow it out your
@adelphia.net
thumbs down from:
wriley
| reply to Ahrenl
Please attempt to read (and understand) the linked story before bloviating uninformed rubbish. You can still freely agree with Microsoft, but at least know the facts of the case before tapping out your ... cough, hack, gag ... opinion.
It's no wonder this country is going into the toilet; can you even name the first year this affair began without GOING BACK and reading the article FIRST? I'd wager not. |
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chemaupr
join:2005-06-06
Alexandria, VA
2 edits | Sure I can, I read about it almost weekly in zdent... sometimes you just want to hear other pepole opinions and not necesarly post yours... and by the way what is yours,,, if you have read anything yet!!! or should we give you more time? |
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
 ·Comcast
| reply to chemaupr
The continual rulings, some of which have been successfully appealed by MS to EU courts seems to be nothing but an attempt to penalize a successful company. And interpreting compliance to mean helping your competitors is pretty ridiculous IMHO. All the things MS supposedly did to exploit their desktop dominance have been ended. The steps being ordered now are nothing but attempts to drive MS out of business.
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| said by TKJunkMail :The steps being ordered now are nothing but attempts to drive MS out of business. Maybe its some sort of "coverture" from the EU to get Microsoft to buy them out 
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Tancredo 2008! |
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chemaupr
join:2005-06-06
Alexandria, VA
| reply to TKJunkMail
I agree... is so silly. Look at their request for a XP version with out the Media Player... they comply and the market response, we are not interested in that product.
This does nothing to benefit the consumers. They will end up paying the price monetary and probably may not receive the best product after all. |
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GigahertZ420
join:2001-10-02
Fairbanks, AK
| reply to TKJunkMail
Microsoft has the worst documentation on interoperability of their products of any of the software vendors we work with.
They are a monopoly, they keep everything so close to the vest that programming for their platform often requires you to utilize un-documented or extremely poorly documented function calls with no idea whether they will function correctly when deployed widespread.
It's all just a conspiracy theory to undermine american influence, blah blah blah.
In your myopic world, any company that is large and american should get a free pass to do what they please, when they please, how they please... |
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Desdinova
join:2003-01-26
Gaithersburg, MD
| "Microsoft has the worst documentation on interoperability of their products of any of the software vendors we work with."
So don't work with it. If there's a financial reason for you to continue working with MS-based products, that's your decision, just as it is to dump them and walk away. If you have a licensing agreement with MS where they're guaranteed to provide a product that maixmizes your profits without giving a percentage back, then you might have a valid claim.
If MS were to lose significant amounts of revenue because of their practices, then I suspect they'd change them. The fact that they're not, seems to suggest that most folks don't have a problem with them.
Am I a MS apologist? Not at all. I use them by default; for the work I do, Windows-based software and hardware is less expensive and more diversified than what's available on other platforms. I was a die-hard Amiga freak who finally gave up the ghost when I could no longer perform certain tasks that were easily available on a Windows-based platform. I certainly did NOT sue MS and try to force them to engineer their gear to integrate with my Amiga stuff. Using this same logic, I don't see the validity of the EU's claims. If so many countries have problems with MS, let 'em dump the system and go with something else.
"In your myopic world, any company that is large and american should get a free pass to do what they please, when they please, how they please..."
I don't feel that American products should be given a free pass, any more than many foreign companies are given a free pass here in the states. Look at the car industry for example, and all the modifications that are necessary or a foreign car to be U.S. compliant.
Personally, I'm a big fan of Mexican switchblades, French absinthe and Cuban cigars, but guess what? Because I live in the United States... |
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| said by Desdinova :"Microsoft has the worst documentation on interoperability of their products of any of the software vendors we work with." So don't work with it. If there's a financial reason for you to continue working with MS-based products, that's your decision, just as it is to dump them and walk away. If you have a licensing agreement with MS where they're guaranteed to provide a product that maixmizes your profits without giving a percentage back, then you might have a valid claim. Perhaps he's simply a coder -- not a project manager or head of operations -- giving his opinion on the documentation from personal experience. Telling him not to work with it is koolaid-speak for 'get F'd; I don't like your opinion, love it or leave it'. Why not find a school yard and beat up a kid instead: that would have to feel better than carrying around what amounts to self-loathing inspired insipience.
Tolerance for differing viewpoints: look into it 
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"I am not young enough to know everything."
Oscar Wilde |
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| reply to chemaupr
said by chemaupr :Sure I can, I read about it almost weekly in zdent... sometimes you just want to hear other pepole opinions and not necesarly post yours... and by the way what is yours,,, if you have read anything yet!!! or should we give you more time? And this is after the edit.
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Oscar Wilde |
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| reply to TKJunkMail
I'll tell you one thing that's a given and offer another that's an opinion: any company as rich as microsoft didn't get there playing by the rules, and that's a fact. Furthermore, imagine -- if you're able -- what computing would be today if true competition had existed for the past fifteen years.
As for this ruling, it's steep and borders on egregious in amount, but I don't think the EU would levy such fines if the conditions of the original ruling were met within the agreed upon time frame. Just my opinion.
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"I am not young enough to know everything."
Oscar Wilde |
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| said by Titus Pullo :Furthermore, imagine -- if you're able -- what computing would be today if true competition had existed for the past fifteen years. I'm not so sure it would be better. While competition does wonders for lower prices and innovation, it does a really poor job of fostering workable standards. The standards groups do a slow poor job of coming up with standards that allow systems to interact and talk to each other. Having a dominant player in a technology area(1st IBM, and then MS) is what fosters the rapid widespread expansion of a technology into all walks of life. So I would say that there are pluses and minuses to not having a dominant player.
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GigahertZ420
join:2001-10-02
Fairbanks, AK
| reply to Desdinova
said by Desdinova :"Microsoft has the worst documentation on interoperability of their products of any of the software vendors we work with." So don't work with it. If there's a financial reason for you to continue working with MS-based products, that's your decision, just as it is to dump them and walk away. If you have a licensing agreement with MS where they're guaranteed to provide a product that maixmizes your profits without giving a percentage back, then you might have a valid claim. If MS were to lose significant amounts of revenue because of their practices, then I suspect they'd change them. The fact that they're not, seems to suggest that most folks don't have a problem with them. Am I a MS apologist? Not at all. I use them by default; for the work I do, Windows-based software and hardware is less expensive and more diversified than what's available on other platforms. I was a die-hard Amiga freak who finally gave up the ghost when I could no longer perform certain tasks that were easily available on a Windows-based platform. I certainly did NOT sue MS and try to force them to engineer their gear to integrate with my Amiga stuff. Using this same logic, I don't see the validity of the EU's claims. If so many countries have problems with MS, let 'em dump the system and go with something else. "In your myopic world, any company that is large and american should get a free pass to do what they please, when they please, how they please..." I don't feel that American products should be given a free pass, any more than many foreign companies are given a free pass here in the states. Look at the car industry for example, and all the modifications that are necessary or a foreign car to be U.S. compliant. Personally, I'm a big fan of Mexican switchblades, French absinthe and Cuban cigars, but guess what? Because I live in the United States... If you have worked with software vendors before and especially Microsoft, they have a tendency to basically tie you to the kitchen sink.
I see this EVERY SINGLE DAY. When a business buys a product or becomes a partner they essentially are on the hook. Every day I talk to someone that says, "We can't run that on our network, were a Cisco shop." or ... were a Novell shop, etc.
Change is not easy and vendors, especially microsoft do a very good job of "anchoring" themselves into your organization or business.
Couple that with the fact that your trying to code Widget A on a Unix system to talk to Widget B on a Windows box and the fact that you were given a steaming pile of crap for documentation culminates in frustration, slipping schedules and the possiblity of a failed project.
The fines EU is looking to impose did not just appear out of the blue, they have been told for almost 2 years that they have to make their product more interoperable. Or at the very least provide adequite documentation on how to do some low level operations.
That means I should be able as a software company to integrate whatever i'm doing (firewall, data backup, web service aggreation) into microsofts product on a technical level equavilent to what they do with their server software. I should not have to do some ugly, complex hooking or interprocess nightmare to implement a basic overloading of a microsoft provided OS function. |
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X_Digit
Binary Enhanced
Premium
join:2003-06-12
Mansfield, TX
| reply to Titus Pullo
Poster above this: "blow it out your (Unregistered) chvlva.adelphia.net"
I can wager that the chvlva, in the address part, stands for Charlottesville, VA. And, since you're from there, AND have Adelphia HSI for your provider, I bet I could wage who made that post!
I love idiots who post anon, when they have registered accounts here, because they purposely let their pelican beak override their hummingbird ass... and don't want to associate their thwarted posts w/ their registered account!
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Respectfully, X_Digit |
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tbsteph
join:2002-01-31
Maylene, AL
·AT&T Southeast
| reply to GigahertZ420
"The fines EU is looking to impose did not just appear out of the blue, they have been told for almost 2 years that they have to make their product more interoperable. Or at the very least provide adequite documentation on how to do some low level operations.
That means I should be able as a software company to integrate whatever i'm doing (firewall, data backup, web service aggreation) into microsofts product on a technical level equavilent to what they do with their server software. I should not have to do some ugly, complex hooking or interprocess nightmare to implement a basic overloading of a microsoft provided OS function"
First, the fines were/are determined by a governmental body whose only purpose is to extort monies from a successful US corporation. If that's OK with you, where does it stop since the EU is in fact the judge and jury for any company they see fit to pillage.
Second, what kind of dumb think is this "I should not have to do.....". Sounds like you want to put a Chevy part on a Ford or you need a bit more technical know-how. You may want to look at the history of your industry and compare today to when Big Blue was in the cats bird seat. Trust me, you would not find an easy way to connect their gear/software with anything else. |
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Fatal Vector
join:2005-11-26
1 edit | reply to X_Digit
And, once again
We see the brainless mindset that somehow anyone who posts anonymously is to be rideculed and ignored as a matter of course because they chose not to register for whatever reason.
It sometimes makes me ponder on who the real idiots are. |
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Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA
·Verizon FIOS
| Yes, it was such an insightful contribution. It altered my whole reality. I'm writing a check to the EU right now because I might have been successful at some point in my life.
Personally I think Bill Gates was the greatest business theif of all time. That being said, ever used Linux, or pre-wintel compatible mac's? It's a nightmare. Yeah M$ got away with a lot of shady things; should they be paying the EU because they won't supply each of their competitors with a custom version of their source code? I think not.
I love this though:
The fines EU is looking to impose did not just appear out of the blue, they have been told for almost 2 years that they have to make their product more interoperable. Or at the very least provide adequite documentation on how to do some low level operations.
What? M$ certainly isn't the only option for business solutions. I haven't checked in a while, but various UNIX versions held greater than 50% of the server market not long ago.
While they shouldn't be allowed to intimidate and constrain innovation, they should be allowed to define their product.
If the EU really cared about this stuff they'd be levying fines on OPEC. But they have no balls. |
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salahx
join:2001-12-03
Saint Louis, MO
| reply to chemaupr
Re: Wonder how many used then?
Well, believe or not, a good part of the protocol (SMB/CIFS) is probably undocumented - but not because Microsoft is stalling, its because they REALLY DON'T KNOW.
It sounds implausible, but there is some truth it. MS "inherited" this protocol from IBM (around 1985). It eventually became inadequate, and then was extended into several dozen (incompatible!) variations. As a result, about half the protocol is dedication to negotiating the incompatibilities.
In other words, the protocol is an ungodly mess. The protocol is over 20 years old, the Samba team likely has more definitive documentation on it than even Microsoft! |
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