Nathan H
@69.95.x.x
| 8 mile NLOS link Hi, I need to create an 8 mile or so link that delivers reasonable speeds (1.5MB both way's fine). I don't have a very large budget, and need the antennas to be unlicensed. What would you guys suggest? I found this site: »www.dailywireless.org/modules.ph···sid=4100 that said "Vyyo's Non-Line-of-Sight 700 Mhz modem, the V284 provides coverage more than 9 miles NLOS outdoors." But I haven't really found much information about it... So I guess it's possible to have a NLOS link of 8 miles, but I really don't know much about wireless and thought it might be wise to ask people that did for some advice 
Thanks,
Nathan | |
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 robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX | Re: 8 mile NLOS link Is your link NLOS because of trees, buildings or a mountain in the way? | |
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Nathan H
@69.95.x.x | Thanks for the quick reply, I live in Indiana, so There are large patches of trees at the end of each field. There might be a few building in the way, but I think it's mostly trees. | |
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 | lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
 ·TekSavvy Solutions..
1 edit | Re: 8 mile NLOS link Nathan, you could be seriously mis-led if you start searching for NLOS equipment before path analysis using Radio Mobile.
Kindly place your mouse on each of end of the link in Google Earth and post the co-ordinates shown and WISP folks will check the path for you. You should also check the buildings and forest along the path visually.
Vyyo CPE uses a DOCSIS (cable) modem with a 700Mhz upconverter, but the article forgot to mention you need to spend $100K on the base-station radio and CMTS head-end.
»www.vyyo.com/Site/upload_files/s···_new.pdf | |
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Nathan H
@69.95.x.x | Re: 8 mile NLOS link Start: 40 58 02.08 N, 85 35 12.52 W. End: 40 56 59.87 N , 85 26 22.87 W. I couldn't get in the degrees signs... But those are all of the numbers. | |
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| | | lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
1 edit | Re: 8 mile NLOS link Nathan, I recall suggesting multi-hop from Huntington »Advice?
You risk spending $10K or more to find out high-speed NLOS may not work for you because there are some points along path that are ~20ft higher with forests.
If you really want to try and have ~$1000 to spend, buy a pair of 900Mhz/18dBi grids and 900Mhz/1W Maxtend RS232 modems.
Install as high as you can - I will suggest 60ft minimum. If the link does not work, you can sell them as two 900Mhz spectrum analyzer kits at a profit.  | |
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| | | | public
join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA
·DSL EXTREME
| Re: 8 mile NLOS link said by lutful  :Nathan, I recall suggesting multi-hop from Huntington » Advice? If you really want to try and have ~$1000 to spend, buy a pair of 900Mhz/18dBi grids and 900Mhz/1W Maxtend RS232 modems. You can buy a pair of ptp 1.5Mbps 900MHz ethernet bridges for $600.
There are two vendors. One us, one in canada.
Yagis tend to work better at 900 MHz. | |
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| | | | Diddy1
join:2003-07-19
Sidney, NE
| said by lutful :modems. Install as high as you can - I will suggest 60ft minimum. If the link does not work, you can sell them as two 900Mhz spectrum analyzer kits at a profit. Smart thinking! Have you thought about a job in marketing?
Aaron | |
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Nathan H
@choiceone.net
| [lutful] Yep, that was me in the other thread... I've been away and forgot all my login information though.[/lutful] I found a WISP that has an access point at the other end of the coordinates I posted, they're like 7.83 miles from me. When I called them to see if I could get their internet they said their equipment was 900 MHz and they only served people within a 5 mile radious(I'm cursed) of an access point. So I've been trying to find some sort of 900 MHz antenna that they would let me use... | |
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| robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
| Re: 8 mile NLOS link Before you start looking for an antenna you need more info. All 900 MHz gear does not work together, so the first thing you need to find out is the brand of equipment the WISP uses. Then you also need to know what antenna the WISP is using on their tower as well as it's height. | |
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marktinney
join:2006-05-05
Piedmont, AL
| I am using 900mhz Avalan Wireless radios with 15db yagi and they are working great, the link is 9.4 miles and you have a better path than I do. I have 160 tower with equipment mounted @ 130' level on one side and a 35 foot tower on the other. The 900mhz will penetrate tree but not mountains. Good luck with your link.
Mark | |
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Nathan H
@choiceone.net
| The antenna is located on a grain leg, it's probably 60-70 feet high, although I'm not sure... The WISP's office is closed on Saturday and Sunday, so I won't be able to get the information until monday. Would the antenna on my end have to be very high? The land here dips here, but there aren’t any mountains or anything... The roof of my house is about 35ft high, I don't know if that would be high enough though. | |
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| robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX | Re: 8 mile NLOS link You gave coordinates before -- which end is your end and which is the WISP? | |
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Nathan H
@choiceone.net
| 40 56 39.87 N , 85 26 22.87 W, is the wireless ISP's access point. 40 58 02.08 N, 85 35 12.52 W, is my house. I still haven't gotten in touch with the ISP's office, so I don't know what brand of equipment they're using, but I'm hoping to call them today. | |
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StormeAngel
join:2006-05-25
Fort Wayne, IN
1 edit | What is the name of the provider? You can IM me with it, if you don't want to post it. That is fine by me. | |
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Nathan H
@choiceone.net | Their name is Indiana Data(www.indianadata.com). | |
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Nathan H
@choiceone.net
| I called them again today but to no avail. I keep getting customer service people who have no idea about anything! The last customer service woman I talked to said that someone who knew what they were talking about (not her exact words) would call me back. So I'm still waiting on that call... | |
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Nathan H
@choiceone.net | The brand they use is "Motorola Canopy". I can't get the towers height, but it's probably somewhere around 70'. | |
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| lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON | Re: 8 mile NLOS link Please ask your WISP to do a site survey using connectorized SM and a few high gain antenna choices. | |
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| LLigetfa
join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON | said by Nathan H :
The brand they use is "Motorola Canopy".
I thought I read somewhere that they (Moto Canopy) use proprietary chipsets so you cannot use any other brand of CPE. | |
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Nathan H
@choiceone.net | You mean a site servey at my house? They won't do that. The whole reason I started this topic is because the wisp says I'm too far and they won't mess with me  | |
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uscomputing
join:2005-01-26
Buffalo, NY | That's true, LLigetfa - but you can use other brands of antennas with them. | |
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| LLigetfa
join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
| Re: 8 mile NLOS link Ja, but there were lots of CPE brands tossed about. Funny that it is only at about page 2 that the full details reveal but by then everyone is off on a different tangent. Just trying to get them facing the right direction again.
So Nathan, are you hoping to hit the WISP's tower, or do you plan to setup your own relay from somewhere in between? If you plan to hit their tower, you need to know what frequency they are running. Moto Canopy comes in different flavors.
We have a new WISP setting up here soon and they are talking Canopy with a reach of 14 KM (8.7 miles).
If your WISP will not do a free site survey, you may have to pay them to come out and if they don't have a bucket truck, you may have to pull in a favour and find one for them. | |
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AnonDOG
@12.160.x.x
| Here is the coverage area of your WISP.
This presumes Motorola Canopy hardware in it's standard configuration at 75 feet on his end and at 45 feet on your end.
The CPE modeled was a Canopy SM with a 14 dBi Yagi.
You will observe that you are well outside of his coverage area. Worse that that there is a tall mound about half way between you and him. You can not even clear that mound with an antenna less than 45' at your end.
To make this link you will need to be at about 90 feet on your end and then it will be marginal.
This is because it is so difficult to get frenel clearance over that hill I mention. | |
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| StormeAngel
join:2006-05-25
Fort Wayne, IN | Re: 8 mile NLOS link What did you use to make the map with? | |
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| lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON | said by AnonDOG :
The CPE modeled was a Canopy SM with a 14 dBi Yagi.
AnonDOG, what is the probability of making the link with a Hyperlink 18dBi grid at 70ft that Nathan mentioned at his end? | |
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AnonDOG
@12.160.x.x
| There is a discrepancy between the two sets of coordinates he posted for his WISP. The Northing varies by 20 seconds. At his lattitude this will be around 1200 feet.
Nathan, check your coordinates. Get them correct or nothing else will matter. | |
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| 
Semaphore
Premium
join:2003-11-18
Arnprior On. | Re: 8 mile NLOS link Just curious. Why do you set RM Threshold to -72 ? That seems sort of low for Canopy 900Mhz. Moto's Propaganda says -90. We try for -86 or better.
S | |
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AnonDOG
@12.160.x.x
| Re: 8 mile NLOS link Moto claims their receive sensitivity is -90 dBm. We have seen them hit that and better; however, Moto wants a 3 dB SNR minimum. That takes us to -87 dBm @ single speed with no fade margin. Moto claims that they can operate reliably with a 6 dB fade margin. We have not seen that but our area is heavy forest, maybe in other areas you can get that kind of performance. We have not been so lucky. We figure in a fade margin of 12 dB and that takes us to -75 dBm minimum receive signal on a link. If the tech gets less than that and does not call into the office and talk with me personally to get my authorization he had better not hang that radio.
I further reduce that by 3 dB because it only because feels good to have a map that I can be very comfortable with when I claim a site will have coverage. Moto claims that it wants -66 dBm to run reliably at double speed, by the way.
I might have been a bit tough on that map but he is still a very long way outside of the coverage area for a 75' access point.
When we get better coordinates I'll do a more lenient plot.
-m- | |
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Nathan H
@choiceone.net | Sorry about not getting the coordinates correct, how do you get them in google earth? I was having some problems and that was why my numbers where different. | |
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PersComp
Premium
join:2005-08-17
Cayce, SC | Re: 8 mile NLOS link You can turn on lat/long grid with one of the menu items at the top. Then just zoom into your location. | |
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| | robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX | Re: 8 mile NLOS link Actually it is easier than that. Just enter the address and let it zoom in. Then move the pointer (hand) to the exact location and look at the bottom of the screen and you should see the coordinates in the default view. | |
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Nathan H
@choiceone.net | Ok, thanks. These should be correct: My house: 40 58 01.31 N, 85 35 12.07 W. Grain leg: 40 56 38.39 N, 85 26 22.67 W. | |
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Nathan H
@choiceone.net | Did I give the right coordinates? | |
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AnonDOG
@12.160.x.x
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NLOS |
This image shows the bad news. I have *assumed* an antenna height at each end of the proposed link of 78 feet.
On the path I have marked a red circle where there is a tall hill in the path.
Even at 78 feet on both ends you only have .2 F1 fresnel clearance over the large hill. That is a pretty bad situation. You probably will have trouble making a legal (FCC legal) link over that hill.
If that hill is also covered with trees, even at 900 MHz, you probably wont be able to make a good link at all.
Sorry. Consider doing that link in two hops.
-m- | |
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