Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
Premium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA
1 edit | reply to Minister
Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio
said by Minister  :The dislike of the idea of broadband as a utility stems from a love of profit and a hatred of government getting in the way of that profit. And the dislike of profit and desire for government to intervene comes from a childish over-simplistic view of economics and the role profits (and losses) play in increasing the standard of living for everyone; a roll that is totally bypassed once the government decides something that is not a right is and then uses that to play to the publics emotions instead of their brains. Ohh the poor have to get up off their arses to go to the library to get access while the rich sit in their castles hording the broadband, their being oppressed!!
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Pi Piru Piru Piru PiPiru Pi! |
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
 ·Embarq
| said by Combat Chuck :said by Minister :The dislike of the idea of broadband as a utility stems from a love of profit and a hatred of government getting in the way of that profit. And the dislike of profit and desire for government to intervene comes from a childish over-simplistic view of economics and the role profits (and losses) play in increasing the standard of living for everyone; a roll that is totally bypassed once the government decides something that is not a right is and then uses that to play to the publics emotions instead of their brains. Ohh the poor have to get up off their arses to go to the library to get access while the rich sit in their castles hording the broadband, their being oppressed!! You wouldn't know economic theory and its relation to quality of living if it bit you in the ass and fed you breakfast. Your criteria is HSI and a car with gas to make it to the library, while someone else may simply want a warm room this winter AND their medicine while working 40 hours, check to check.
You, and those that hold your opinion, are exemplary of a growing segment of this society that extols their intolerance as a virtue; you're simply rehashing Social Darwinism under the guise of corporate/political dogma. It is currently not the have-nots that hate, Sir, it is the haves that hate those without. Virtue has no price; perhaps that's why you've none.
If you're so sure of your understanding of the relationship between economics (in this case capitalism) and the quality of living it provides, please explain for us how a world economic superpower (that also happens to be one of the most religious industrialized nations in the world) has nearly the highest infant mortality rate within the same class of nations?
You can't.
Why not? Because your theory of economics and any "increased standard of living" don't belong in the same sentence. Your world view is polluted by an angry and hate-filled intolerant rhetoric: intolerance for those that have less and hatred for those that want to help those with less attain more. Whether this is born of self loathing or ignorance is up to the reader. The only thing you give freely is your indignation towards any level of indigence.
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"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose." -- Frederick Douglass |
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bmn
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Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| reply to Combat Chuck
said by Combat Chuck :said by Minister :The dislike of the idea of broadband as a utility stems from a love of profit and a hatred of government getting in the way of that profit. And the dislike of profit and desire for government to intervene comes from a childish over-simplistic view of economics and the role profits (and losses) play in increasing the standard of living for everyone; Both views are overly-simplistic and childish views economics because both views ignore the weaknesses of their paradigms...
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Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
Premium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA
| reply to Titus Pullo
said by Titus Pullo :You, and those that hold your opinion, are exemplary of a growing segment of this society that extols their intolerance as a virtue. Sigh, if only scientists looked at everything with the level of emotion you fools looked at everything we would have all starved to death long ago worrying about the suffering of wheat.
I'd love to know how the belief that profits, as a reward for those who do more with less, therefore lowering the costs of living (Hyundai anyone?) and losses, as the door hitting those who haven't on the ass on the way out, is intolerant. It's not, that's just your way of keeping people from taking a step back and looking at the situation from a realistic (ie: not emotional) standpoint.
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Pi Piru Piru Piru PiPiru Pi! |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| reply to Titus Pullo
said by Titus Pullo :... please explain for us how [the US] has nearly the highest infant mortality rate within the same class of nations? The key to your misleading question is your inclusion of "the same class of nations" as a qualifier. If you really want to compare economics, compare those nations with established capitalist societies with those nations that depend on other economic theory--and I include corruption as a theory, so don't discount it. If you have a specific point to make about the US within its "class", you need to be more explicit and less verbose in making it.
said by Titus Pullo :hatred for those that want to help those with less attain more. Let me ask you this: Which party profits more by having a large underclass that votes reliably for the Democratic party? I mean, let's face it--if half of the "have nots" got enough to be "have somethings" then they would become taxpayers and some of them would probably vote Republican--much to the distress of the Democratic party. So much better instead to make sure they are fully dependent on government largess and will vote reliably for the party which encourages government dependence.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| reply to bmn
Then again, one could consider the relevant success and/or failure of the economics of capitalism and socialism as practiced by two resource rich nations (the US and the USSR) and their respective NATO and Warsaw Pact followers.
That would, of course, confuse the theorists with the results of actual implementation.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| reply to Combat Chuck
said by Combat Chuck :said by Titus Pullo :You, and those that hold your opinion, are exemplary of a growing segment of this society that extols their intolerance as a virtue. Sigh, if only scientists looked at everything with the level of emotion you fools looked at everything we would have all starved to death long ago worrying about the suffering of wheat. I'd love to know how the belief that profits, as a reward for those who do more with less, therefore lowering the costs of living (Hyundai anyone?) and losses, as the door hitting those who haven't on the ass on the way out, is intolerant. It's not, that's just your way of keeping people from taking a step back and looking at the situation from a realistic (ie: not emotional) standpoint. This is your response? and to only 1/20 of my post?
You just keep hittin 'em out of the park. Don't you, Chuck?
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"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose." -- Frederick Douglass |
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bmn
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Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| reply to calvoiper
said by calvoiper :Then again, one could consider the relevant success and/or failure of the economics of capitalism and socialism as practiced by two resource rich nations (the US and the USSR) and their respective NATO and Warsaw Pact followers. One could... The problem with doing that, however, is that how one defines economic success and failure is not objective, but pure a subjective exercise. It depends on what one views as important. For example, is employment level an important factor or not?
That would, of course, confuse the theorists with the results of actual implementation. Everything looks good on paper... Its taking it from paper to practice where the problem is.
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA | I was thinking about which nation and which alliance survived, and which ones shattered....
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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bmn
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Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| said by calvoiper :I was thinking about which nation and which alliance survived, and which ones shattered.... Ahh, but, would that not be a function of governing style and less of economic style ?
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| reply to Titus Pullo
said by Titus Pullo :This is your response? and to only 1/20 of my post? You just keep hittin 'em out of the park. Don't you, Chuck? He knows a troll when he sees one...
No point wasting time, effort and energy on a zealot.
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
1 edit | reply to bmn
No, it wouldn't just be "governing style". Those that shattered did so because they were broke, and that's an economic consequence.
We could digress into why socialism and totalitarianism go together (absence of individual choice) and why capitalism and democracy go together (individual choice and the responsibility for its exercise), but that would get us even further from the topic, wouldn't it?
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| said by calvoiper :No, it wouldn't just be "governing style". Those that shattered did so because they were broke, and that's an economic consequence. True... It would be a combination of the two and the dicussion would disgress to whether economic system determines governing style or whether governing system determines economic system...
We could digress into why socialism and totalitarianism go together (absence of individual choice) and why capitalism and democracy go together (individual choice and the responsibility for its exercise), but that would get us even further from the topic, wouldn't it? Yeah, but I can say that its possible to have democratic socialism and that fascism is simply the totalitarian versus of capitalism...
But, yes, we're drifting from the topic, but if you want to continue this, there's IM.
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Tor server operator... Helping the free flow of information daily. |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| reply to calvoiper
said by calvoiper :We could digress into why socialism and totalitarianism go together (absence of individual choice) and why capitalism and democracy go together (individual choice and the responsibility for its exercise), but that would get us even further from the topic, wouldn't it? Ah...finally. The fog is beginning to lift.
You know, sometimes I think that Karl the News Guy unleashes this stuff on us and then leans back in his chair at BBR Master Control, with a sly grin and an evil laugh, knowing what is going to transpire.
Usually he posts this kind of stuff on Friday so the pot can boil and be stirred all weekend.
Must be a slow news week...
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| reply to calvoiper
There's nothing misleading about the question. Here, I'll make it as concise as I can.
Take any industrialized nation in the world today and compare their infant mortality rate with that of the USA. I don't need economics, political systems or anything else; just the numbers will do.
How then, does one answer why the sole superpower has higher rates than many of the other nations? Is that a "Culture of Life?" Or is it closer to a culture of growing intolerance? It's simply that simple.
Your question is piffle. No one benefits from carrying a large underclass. Look at what we're borrowing from the Chinese now to clean up NOLA. Next you'll tell us that the liberal left opposes any and all measures designed to help the poor that the republicans support. Liberals keep pushing for minimum wage increases and republicans keep telling us it will stifle growth, yet every increase in modern history has done nothing to slow growth.
Both parties are captive to corporatism, but I truly believe one is more likely to leave crumbs on the table than the other.
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"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose." -- Frederick Douglass |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Actually, there's a good argument to be made that our "culture of tolerance" is to blame for infant mortality--specifically tolerance of drug use and tolerance of pre-natal abuse.
You talk about "help" for the poor the same way a drug addict talks about "help" for his withdrawal--please give me something to increase my dependence.
Finally, if you so reject our economic system as to only support the party that leaves more "crumbs" on the table, I doubt that we are even talking about the same things as goals. I don't want to see people eating crumbs, I want them to be eating bread--but I want them to have a choice of bread, and I'm not willing to give that up just so you and your pseudo-idealistic cronies can run the bakery and make only the kind of bread you like.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| You're not answering the question. I'm not arguing economic systems - I'm talking about how we treat human beings. How old are you?
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"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose." -- Frederick Douglass |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Damn near 50. Why does that matter? How old are you?
What question am I not answering? You asked me why we have a higher infant mortality rate than other countries with similar economic systems, and I indicated that it's because we put up with things that other countries don't--including cultural issues relating to marriage, child care, and drug use. If you have a different reason, spit it out--but don't expect me to either magically detect what YOU think the answer is or to immediately agree that your answer is the cause.
I'm talking about how we treat human beings too--and you are sounding more and more like a teenager who doesn't like his curfew and claims that it's "intolerant."
Understand something: "Tolerance" does not mean "obligation to endlessly fund." Sample usage: I tolerate your practice of a religion different from my own, but I won't be funding that religion.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| said by calvoiper :Damn near 50. Why does that matter? How old are you? What question am I not answering? You asked me why we have a higher infant mortality rate than other countries with similar economic systems, and I indicated that it's because we put up with things that other countries don't--including cultural issues relating to marriage, child care, and drug use. If you have a different reason, spit it out--but don't expect me to either magically detect what YOU think the answer is or to immediately agree that your answer is the cause. I'm talking about how we treat human beings too--and you are sounding more and more like a teenager who doesn't like his curfew and claims that it's "intolerant." Understand something: "Tolerance" does not mean "obligation to endlessly fund." Sample usage: I tolerate your practice of a religion different from my own, but I won't be funding that religion. calvoiper Age goes to perspective, and there's really only one answer to the question. If you can't figure it out, then I'm sorry, but I can give you a clue -- Forget systems and focus on means.
I know the particulars, and you provide a few good examples.
Now, if you care to, answer the question at its root and tell us why we tolerate - to use your term - high infant mortality when we clearly have the means to reduce it significantly.
Please understand this: I don't advocate anything by asking this question. I don't advocate a welfare state, Marxism, or any other hideous thing you can imagine. I'm asking a simple question that requires a root cause. No one needs a textbook explanation. Ones conscience should suffice.
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"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose." -- Frederick Douglass |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| All right, since you're making me stab at your thrice rephrased question in the dark,...
We tolerate a higher infant mortality in the US because "civil libertarians" believe that it is inappropriate to force proper pre-natal care on unwilling mothers. In particular, we cannot legally force a pregnant drug-addicted female into a secure facility. We cannot force pregnant females to stop smoking, or to make and keep clinic appointments.
This is beginning to sound like the tired old refrain about how Regan supposedly closed mental health facilities and dumped mentally handicapped people on the street. What really happened was that the dear liberal courts said that you cannot confine a mentally deranged person unless they "are an immediate threat to themselves or others", so scores, if not hundreds, of thousands of mentally ill people signed themselves out to live on the street. The institutions were closed because they were empty, not because anyone wanted to dump people in the gutter.
You haven't answered my question about age, but perhaps we're circling Mark Twain's quote about how if a man isn't a liberal at 16 he has no heart and if he isn't a conservative at 40 he has no mind. After you share your age, perhaps you'll tell us which government agency or liberal do-good "non-profit" you work for....
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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