qdemn7
Smurf in My Loop
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Fort Worth, TX
| reply to Titus Pullo
Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio
"Let those who complain that too much money is being spent on abstract knowledge while people are starving remember this:
The alternative to knowledge is savagery. Their very existence as stowaways on the voyage of civilization is owing to advances in science which permit some to live without doing their share of the work. Let them be tolerant, then, lest by encumbering the useful ones they destroy the thing which keeps them alive." -- George Ellery Hale
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"Gun Control: The notion that Matthew Shepard tied to a fence post in the middle of Wyoming is morally superior to Matthew Shepard explaining to the local sheriff how his attackers got all those fatal bullet holes." ~Dan Weiner |
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
 ·Embarq
| reply to TKJunkMail
said by TKJunkMail  :said by Titus Pullo :» news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051005/us_···usa_dc_6Which contains such tidbits as: "Since 2000, the ranks of the poor have increased year by year by almost 5.5 million in total." Which, interestingly enough, corresponds to the same year that infant mortality began to increase (after a slow decrease) in the US. Coincidence? I don't think so. You may disagree. Which also, intersetingly enough, matches how many illegal immigrants have flooded into the US. So you're saying illegals are included in the data and that illegal aliens (not black Americans) are the predominant source for the increase in US infant mortality since 2000? I'd appreciate a citation or a link to back up that assertion, if you'd be so kind.
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
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join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
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| reply to Titus Pullo
said by Titus Pullo :» news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051005/us_···usa_dc_6Which contains such tidbits as: "Since 2000, the ranks of the poor have increased year by year by almost 5.5 million in total." Which, interestingly enough, corresponds to the same year that infant mortality began to increase (after a slow decrease) in the US. Coincidence? I don't think so. You may disagree. Which also, intersetingly enough, matches how many illegal immigrants have flooded into the US.
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| reply to calvoiper
The answer is that we now tolerate obscene levels of poverty for the richest nation on earth, which leads to many of our social ills. The problem today is that the gap between rich and poor is reaching critical mass.
I just ran across this article today while surfing:
»news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051005/us_···usa_dc_6
Which contains such tidbits as:
"Since 2000, the ranks of the poor have increased year by year by almost 5.5 million in total."
Which, interestingly enough, corresponds to the same year that infant mortality began to increase (after a slow decrease) in the US. Coincidence? I don't think so. You may disagree.
Another snippet from the link:
U.S. POVERTY WORST IN INDUSTRIALISED WORLD
"Every August, we Americans tell ourselves a lie," said David Brady, a Duke University professor who studies poverty.
"The poverty rate was designed to undercount because the government wanted to show progress in the war on poverty."
"Taking everything into account, the real rate is around 18 percent, or 48 million people. Poverty in the United States is more widespread, by far, than in any other industrialized country."
Poverty is a universal problem, as is inequality. The world's 500 richest people, according to U.N. statistics, have as much income as the world's poorest 416 million. Yes, that's 500/416,000,000. If someone doesn't see the problems inherent to such a skewed statistic, I daresay they're in an alternate reality.
I can think of no plausible excuse for such obscenity. We live in a world that has created a milieu of pure greed with class systems that encourage intolerance and indifference in order to divide and conquer. Such a state of existence is unsustainable, as history has shown us time and time again.
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"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose." -- Frederick Douglass |
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qdemn7
Smurf in My Loop
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Fort Worth, TX
| reply to John Galt
said by John Galt :My personal preference would be to give them a full-on Demerol push and send them off to their happiness. But that is not "socially acceptable" now, is it? I'd probably be accused of killing a Liberal... You don't have to be that harsh, simply forcibly sterilize their sorry asses. The men as well as the women. Of course the Left and empathy fascists would shit themselves blind over that. 
Of course it WOULD have the desired affect of reducing infant mortality. But then if you want an omelet you have to break eggs. That's hard on the egg, and hurts the hen's feelings, but then, so what? 
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"Gun Control: The notion that Matthew Shepard tied to a fence post in the middle of Wyoming is morally superior to Matthew Shepard explaining to the local sheriff how his attackers got all those fatal bullet holes." ~Dan Weiner |
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jester121
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL
 ·surpasshosting
 ·ViaTalk
| reply to John Galt
said by John Galt :[ Why do I know this? Because I spent 10 years at the business end of an autopsy scalpel doing post-mortem exams on dead babies. I think technically it was the corpse that was on the business end of the scalpel. All a question of perspective, I suppose.  |
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dfinn6230
join:2004-09-19
Cary, NC | reply to TKJunkMail
Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idiot:
Way to go SF! I'm with you all the way! Information access is a fundamental right (as in Freedom of Information Act). The poor and the rich should have the same access. Compare this position to that of China. |
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bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| reply to John Galt
Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio
said by John Galt :said by bmn :And they will have no one to blame but themselves. The reality is that everyone else ends up getting the blame... Well, with phenomenon like addiction, where cultural, societal and environmental issues also play a role, its much easier to blame other people than to take responsibility. That's never going to change.
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| reply to bmn
said by bmn :And they will have no one to blame but themselves. The reality is that everyone else ends up getting the blame...
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bmn
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Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| reply to John Galt
said by John Galt :My personal preference would be to give them a full-on Demerol push and send them off to their happiness. But that is not "socially acceptable" now, is it? Not only is it not "socially acceptable," its also not "morally acceptable." What happens to those people later in life from any number of diseases and illnesses to things like mental illness is going to be their sentence... And they will have no one to blame but themselves.
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| reply to calvoiper
said by calvoiper :Actually, there's a good argument to be made that our "culture of tolerance" is to blame for infant mortality--specifically tolerance of drug use and tolerance of pre-natal abuse. WOW...I'm glad I read further down in the posts. It saved me a lot of typing.
Calvoiper is exactly correct.
Why do I know this? Because I spent 10 years at the business end of an autopsy scalpel doing post-mortem exams on dead babies. They were usually the "waste by-product" of a crack-whore "mother" who was too busy with her "habit" to attend to the new life growing in her womb. I guess that the only "happy thought" was that she would soon be newly-impregnated and the same vicious cycle would continue.
Nothing like delivering a stillborn to an abusive "mother" and having her ask if she can "go now" because she has to "meet somebody".
Add to that alcoholic "mothers", "mothers" that smoke, and "mothers" that just plain don't give a shit..and that is why you get a high infant mortality in industrialized nations.
Why?
Because they can afford it. As long as the "taxpayer" is picking up the tab, why should they care?
My personal preference would be to give them a full-on Demerol push and send them off to their happiness. But that is not "socially acceptable" now, is it?
I'd probably be accused of killing a Liberal...
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| reply to Titus Pullo
All right, since you're making me stab at your thrice rephrased question in the dark,...
We tolerate a higher infant mortality in the US because "civil libertarians" believe that it is inappropriate to force proper pre-natal care on unwilling mothers. In particular, we cannot legally force a pregnant drug-addicted female into a secure facility. We cannot force pregnant females to stop smoking, or to make and keep clinic appointments.
This is beginning to sound like the tired old refrain about how Regan supposedly closed mental health facilities and dumped mentally handicapped people on the street. What really happened was that the dear liberal courts said that you cannot confine a mentally deranged person unless they "are an immediate threat to themselves or others", so scores, if not hundreds, of thousands of mentally ill people signed themselves out to live on the street. The institutions were closed because they were empty, not because anyone wanted to dump people in the gutter.
You haven't answered my question about age, but perhaps we're circling Mark Twain's quote about how if a man isn't a liberal at 16 he has no heart and if he isn't a conservative at 40 he has no mind. After you share your age, perhaps you'll tell us which government agency or liberal do-good "non-profit" you work for....
calvoiper
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| reply to calvoiper
said by calvoiper :Damn near 50. Why does that matter? How old are you? What question am I not answering? You asked me why we have a higher infant mortality rate than other countries with similar economic systems, and I indicated that it's because we put up with things that other countries don't--including cultural issues relating to marriage, child care, and drug use. If you have a different reason, spit it out--but don't expect me to either magically detect what YOU think the answer is or to immediately agree that your answer is the cause. I'm talking about how we treat human beings too--and you are sounding more and more like a teenager who doesn't like his curfew and claims that it's "intolerant." Understand something: "Tolerance" does not mean "obligation to endlessly fund." Sample usage: I tolerate your practice of a religion different from my own, but I won't be funding that religion. calvoiper Age goes to perspective, and there's really only one answer to the question. If you can't figure it out, then I'm sorry, but I can give you a clue -- Forget systems and focus on means.
I know the particulars, and you provide a few good examples.
Now, if you care to, answer the question at its root and tell us why we tolerate - to use your term - high infant mortality when we clearly have the means to reduce it significantly.
Please understand this: I don't advocate anything by asking this question. I don't advocate a welfare state, Marxism, or any other hideous thing you can imagine. I'm asking a simple question that requires a root cause. No one needs a textbook explanation. Ones conscience should suffice.
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"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose." -- Frederick Douglass |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| reply to Titus Pullo
Damn near 50. Why does that matter? How old are you?
What question am I not answering? You asked me why we have a higher infant mortality rate than other countries with similar economic systems, and I indicated that it's because we put up with things that other countries don't--including cultural issues relating to marriage, child care, and drug use. If you have a different reason, spit it out--but don't expect me to either magically detect what YOU think the answer is or to immediately agree that your answer is the cause.
I'm talking about how we treat human beings too--and you are sounding more and more like a teenager who doesn't like his curfew and claims that it's "intolerant."
Understand something: "Tolerance" does not mean "obligation to endlessly fund." Sample usage: I tolerate your practice of a religion different from my own, but I won't be funding that religion.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| reply to calvoiper
You're not answering the question. I'm not arguing economic systems - I'm talking about how we treat human beings. How old are you?
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"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose." -- Frederick Douglass |
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mondoz
join:2000-08-26
Houston, TX
1 edit | reply to bokamba
Re: universal access to info a fundamental right
said by bokamba
His use of the word "idiot" still applies. It would be nice if everyone had access to the Internet, but calling it a right means he thinks that by virtue of being a human, we deserve access to all the information of the world. That is idiotic.
But that's not what he said.
He said "It is to me a fundamental right to have access universally to information,"
He didn't say 'all information of the world.'
Perhaps "Access to Information" should be an Amendment to the Constitution.
After all, if people have the right to have a gun, the right to at least know how to use it should go with it, why they have that right, and how they got it.
The government already provides libraries, some with Internet-connected computers for free.
Combining these two sources of information and calling them a 'right' doesn't seem like such a big deal to me.
Many people are within reach of a public library that has free Internet access, which is pretty nice already, eh? 
He also didn't say that all content should be free or accessible, just the conduit to the information. In this case, he's only talking about state-subsidized wifi. |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| reply to Titus Pullo
Re: WiFi NOT a fundamental right; SF mayor an idio
Actually, there's a good argument to be made that our "culture of tolerance" is to blame for infant mortality--specifically tolerance of drug use and tolerance of pre-natal abuse.
You talk about "help" for the poor the same way a drug addict talks about "help" for his withdrawal--please give me something to increase my dependence.
Finally, if you so reject our economic system as to only support the party that leaves more "crumbs" on the table, I doubt that we are even talking about the same things as goals. I don't want to see people eating crumbs, I want them to be eating bread--but I want them to have a choice of bread, and I'm not willing to give that up just so you and your pseudo-idealistic cronies can run the bakery and make only the kind of bread you like.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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Titus Pullo
I came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
·Embarq
| reply to calvoiper
There's nothing misleading about the question. Here, I'll make it as concise as I can.
Take any industrialized nation in the world today and compare their infant mortality rate with that of the USA. I don't need economics, political systems or anything else; just the numbers will do.
How then, does one answer why the sole superpower has higher rates than many of the other nations? Is that a "Culture of Life?" Or is it closer to a culture of growing intolerance? It's simply that simple.
Your question is piffle. No one benefits from carrying a large underclass. Look at what we're borrowing from the Chinese now to clean up NOLA. Next you'll tell us that the liberal left opposes any and all measures designed to help the poor that the republicans support. Liberals keep pushing for minimum wage increases and republicans keep telling us it will stifle growth, yet every increase in modern history has done nothing to slow growth.
Both parties are captive to corporatism, but I truly believe one is more likely to leave crumbs on the table than the other.
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"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose." -- Frederick Douglass |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| reply to calvoiper
said by calvoiper :We could digress into why socialism and totalitarianism go together (absence of individual choice) and why capitalism and democracy go together (individual choice and the responsibility for its exercise), but that would get us even further from the topic, wouldn't it? Ah...finally. The fog is beginning to lift.
You know, sometimes I think that Karl the News Guy unleashes this stuff on us and then leans back in his chair at BBR Master Control, with a sly grin and an evil laugh, knowing what is going to transpire.
Usually he posts this kind of stuff on Friday so the pot can boil and be stirred all weekend.
Must be a slow news week...
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bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| reply to calvoiper
said by calvoiper :No, it wouldn't just be "governing style". Those that shattered did so because they were broke, and that's an economic consequence. True... It would be a combination of the two and the dicussion would disgress to whether economic system determines governing style or whether governing system determines economic system...
We could digress into why socialism and totalitarianism go together (absence of individual choice) and why capitalism and democracy go together (individual choice and the responsibility for its exercise), but that would get us even further from the topic, wouldn't it? Yeah, but I can say that its possible to have democratic socialism and that fascism is simply the totalitarian versus of capitalism...
But, yes, we're drifting from the topic, but if you want to continue this, there's IM.
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