  TK Junk Mail Go ahead, make my day Premium join:2002-03-03 Margate City, NJ clubs:
·Comcast
| Wiretapping VOIP makes sense & is legal
»www.linuxelectrons.com/article.p···55918944
Responding to a petition from the Department of Justice, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and the Drug Enforcement Agency, the FCC Commission determined that providers of certain broadband and interconnected voice over Internet Protocol (VoIP) services must be prepared to accommodate law enforcement wiretaps, the Federal Communications Commission ruled yesterday.
The Commission found that these services can essentially replace conventional telecommunications services currently subject to wiretap rules, including circuit-switched voice service and dial-up Internet access. As replacements, the new services are covered by the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act, or CALEA, which requires the Commission to preserve the ability of law enforcement agencies to conduct court-ordered wiretaps in the face of technological change.
The Order is limited to facilities-based broadband Internet access service providers and VoIP providers that offer services permitting users to receive calls from, and place calls to, the public switched telephone network. These VoIP providers are called interconnected VoIP providers. CALEA contains a provision that authorizes the Commission to deem an entity a telecommunications carrier if the Commission finds that such service is a replacement for a substantial portion of the local telephone exchange.
The Order strikes an appropriate balance between fostering competitive broadband and advanced services deployment and technological innovation on one hand, and meeting the needs of the law enforcement community on the other. The above is a less heated more reasoned response to this FCC order than that from some quarters.
And all these wiretaps are dependent on obtaining court orders 1st. All the worry over a run-amok government are bogus. This is nothing but an extension to VOIP services of the authority to tap packet switched phone service. -- -- Join Red Room Forum My Web Page |
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  MoeDumb I already have a Messiah. Premium join:2002-09-23
| said by TK Junk Mail :» www.linuxelectrons.com/article.p···55918944And all these wiretaps are dependent on obtaining court orders 1st. You think that's an impediment? Three-letter agencies can obtain court orders from compliant judges at the drop of a hat. You think they're ever turned down? Get real. -- "tick...tick...tick..." »www.jtf.org/ |
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 moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21 Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by MoeDumb :said by TK Junk Mail :» www.linuxelectrons.com/article.p···55918944And all these wiretaps are dependent on obtaining court orders 1st. You think that's an impediment? Three-letter agencies can obtain court orders from compliant judges at the drop of a hat. You think they're ever turned down? Get real. And that has changed how from getting the same court order for a regular landline how? |
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  G_Poobah
join:2004-01-17 Schenectady, NY | reply to TK Junk Mail Court order? What country are you living in? Under the patriot act, they don't need a court order. Period. -- Grand Poobah |
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  TK Junk Mail Go ahead, make my day Premium join:2002-03-03 Margate City, NJ clubs:
·Comcast
| said by G_Poobah :Court order? What country are you living in? Under the patriot act, they don't need a court order. Period. You are WRONG. The Patriot Act requires a court order. It is just that the court doesn't release or make available to the press the details or existence of the warrants. That is so that the press doesn't tip off the person being investigated. -- -- Join Red Room Forum My Web Page |
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  kapil The Kapil
join:2000-04-26 Chicago, IL | reply to TK Junk Mail ...and when was the last time you used a VoIP carrier that wasn't "interconnected"? -- Buy Stuff From Me! - »www.DomainObjects.com |
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  kapil The Kapil
join:2000-04-26 Chicago, IL
| reply to TK Junk Mail Yes...we can't have an air of fairness and open-ness when it comes to "homeland security" the press can't know. If we limit the number of things the press has a right to know, maybe the press will finally die off and let us create a police state in peace.
If you follow the constitution that has worked so well for hundreds of years, the terrorists win!...you don't want the terrorists to win, do you? -- Buy Stuff From Me! - »www.DomainObjects.com |
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  calvoiper
join:2003-03-31 Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| reply to moonpuppy The problem is operational--and expensive
The real problem here is that this requires affected providers to be able to tap calls that do not touch the PSTN--this can be a big operational problem for services that offer both PSTN interconnection and calling between VOIP subscribers without interconnection to the PSTN.
The earlier notice (FCC 04-187, August, 2004) in paras. 37 to 39 had tentatively concluded CALEA applied only to "managed" VOIP, where the provider holds on to the call and acts as a continuing intermediary throughout the duration of the call. "Non-managed" or "peer-to-peer" calls, where the provider assists with setup info but then is not further involved with the call, wouldn't have been covered. This was apparently the distinction originally advanced by the law enforcement agencies.
The current notice (FCC 05-153, "adopted" in August but only finalized and released last Friday) scraps this distinction and goes instead with a model that makes ALL calls passed by a provider who offers PSTN interconnection subject to CALEA (paras. 39-40.) This expansion beyond even what law enforcement requested has two principal effects:
1. This dramatically increases the scope of the coverage--now all calls that are setup through Vonage and other "PSTN interconnected" providers are subject to CALEA, regardless of whether or not the calls themselves touch the PSTN.
2. The broader scope increases VOIP providers costs--the provider must either a) "manage" ALL calls it sets up throughout the duration of the call, thereby destroying the inherent efficiency of letting go of a call between VOIPers who can go "peer-to-peer" or b) create a separate call flow setup for CALEA-tapped calls that would otherwise be "unmanaged", moving them into the "managed" category by artificially inserting an extra pair of packet assemblers/dissamblers into the call path.
Even though the "b)" solution of an "inserted tap" on what would otherwise be a "peer-to-peer" call might seem like a minimal expense, since it would likely be easily detectable by the end user(s), it might not comply with CALEA at all, as CALEA requires the existence of a tap to be kept confidential from the subscriber.
I envision instead an end result in which "PSTN interconnected" providers end up abandoning the cheap (and likely free) "peer-to-peer" route, instead maintaining "management" of every call from start to finish. This loss of efficiency, and increased cost, for VOIP service will undoubtedly please the existing, incumbent PSTN providers.
This leaves us with a split world of VOIP--one class of providers who can deliver any call, but entirely subject to CALEA, and another class who setup "peer-to-peer" traffic only and are not subject to CALEA. Guess which ones the bad guys will use?
Call me paranoid if you wish, but I strongly suspect that the incumbent Baby Bells had more than a small part in this result which will force more VOIP traffic into more expensive call routing which just happens to mirror, in part, the historical and expensive network design of these same Baby Bells.
calvoiper -- VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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 openbox9
join:2004-01-26 Navarre, FL
·AT&T Southeast
·Mediacom
| reply to kapil Re: Wiretapping VOIP makes sense & is legal
Poor journalism or lack of has nothing to do with a police state. Besides, how many "non-slanted" journalists do you know? I'm not saying that freedom of the press should be taken away, but how bad would it be if we had fewer journalists...and lawyers:D |
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  calvoiper
join:2003-03-31 Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| said by openbox9 :... but how bad would it be if we had fewer journalists...and lawyers:D I suppose it wouldn't be a problem for anyone who wasn't interested in new or different viewpoints or who never needed anyone to defend their rights....
calvoiper -- VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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 moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21 Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to calvoiper Re: The problem is operational--and expensive
said by calvoiper :The real problem here is that this requires affected providers to be able to tap calls that do not touch the PSTN--this can be a big operational problem for services that offer both PSTN interconnection and calling between VOIP subscribers without interconnection to the PSTN. The earlier notice (FCC 04-187, August, 2004) in paras. 37 to 39 had tentatively concluded CALEA applied only to "managed" VOIP, where the provider holds on to the call and acts as a continuing intermediary throughout the duration of the call. "Non-managed" or "peer-to-peer" calls, where the provider assists with setup info but then is not further involved with the call, wouldn't have been covered. This was apparently the distinction originally advanced by the law enforcement agencies. The current notice (FCC 05-153, "adopted" in August but only finalized and released last Friday) scraps this distinction and goes instead with a model that makes ALL calls passed by a provider who offers PSTN interconnection subject to CALEA (paras. 39-40.) This expansion beyond even what law enforcement requested has two principal effects: 1. This dramatically increases the scope of the coverage--now all calls that are setup through Vonage and other "PSTN interconnected" providers are subject to CALEA, regardless of whether or not the calls themselves touch the PSTN. 2. The broader scope increases VOIP providers costs--the provider must either a) "manage" ALL calls it sets up throughout the duration of the call, thereby destroying the inherent efficiency of letting go of a call between VOIPers who can go "peer-to-peer" or b) create a separate call flow setup for CALEA-tapped calls that would otherwise be "unmanaged", moving them into the "managed" category by artificially inserting an extra pair of packet assemblers/dissamblers into the call path. Even though the "b)" solution of an "inserted tap" on what would otherwise be a "peer-to-peer" call might seem like a minimal expense, since it would likely be easily detectable by the end user(s), it might not comply with CALEA at all, as CALEA requires the existence of a tap to be kept confidential from the subscriber. I envision instead an end result in which "PSTN interconnected" providers end up abandoning the cheap (and likely free) "peer-to-peer" route, instead maintaining "management" of every call from start to finish. This loss of efficiency, and increased cost, for VOIP service will undoubtedly please the existing, incumbent PSTN providers. This leaves us with a split world of VOIP--one class of providers who can deliver any call, but entirely subject to CALEA, and another class who setup "peer-to-peer" traffic only and are not subject to CALEA. Guess which ones the bad guys will use? Call me paranoid if you wish, but I strongly suspect that the incumbent Baby Bells had more than a small part in this result which will force more VOIP traffic into more expensive call routing which just happens to mirror, in part, the historical and expensive network design of these same Baby Bells. calvoiper And you didn't see this coming? 
Look at the commercials Vonage puts out. It sells itself as something that is just as good a regular phone line only cheaper.
Then the E911 issues came out. It took a couple of incidents for the FCC to mandate the E911 compliance.
Now with more people leaving POTS for VOIP, the FBI and police would still like to be able to do the same thing they did before with POTS lines.
If VOIP providers want to be like the bells, they have to be like them in all respects. |
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  G_Poobah
join:2004-01-17 Schenectady, NY
| reply to TK Junk Mail Re: Wiretapping VOIP makes sense & is legal
No, YOU are WRONG.
The FBI needs only to certify to a FISA judge(no need for evidence or probable cause) that the search protects against terrorism. The judge has no authority to reject this application.
By DEFINITION, the judge has ZERO authority to reject the application, thus it's NOT a court order, it's a rubber stamp. Argue all you want, but a court order, by definition, requires the court system to APPROVE the request. A request that cannot be denied makes a mockery of the legal system. -- Grand Poobah |
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  calvoiper
join:2003-03-31 Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| reply to moonpuppy Re: The problem is operational--and expensive
...yes, and there were those who said that if automobiles were to replace horses, then they couldn't go any faster than horses, as well.
Anytime you (or the government) says that to compete with some existing technology or industry, you have to mimic all of the features and aspects of that technology or industry, innovation is stifled.
Maybe you'd enjoy seeing the US choke off innovation and lose what little leading role we have left in technology development, but I'm not yet ready to turn it all over to the bureaucrats who are both too lazy and too stupid to deal with new, innovative technology.
This FCC Order represents a colossal failure of the regulatory bureaucracy to do anything other than effectively say, "Duh. I don't wanna tax my brain to figure out how this new stuff really works, so I'll just say it has to work just like the old stuff. And I don't care if our action today doesn't really affect terrorism much 'cause terrorists can still use the P2P flavor of the new stuff, whatever that is--it's only my job to make a decision, and we'll just do as much of it as we can the old way."
calvoiper -- VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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 moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21 Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by calvoiper : ...yes, and there were those who said that if automobiles were to replace horses, then they couldn't go any faster than horses, as well. Cars were restricted from certain roads so as not to scare horses. Soon, the tide turned and the cars took over because they became cheaper to operate (in the long run.)
said by calvoiper :Anytime you (or the government) says that to compete with some existing technology or industry, you have to mimic all of the features and aspects of that technology or industry, innovation is stifled. And I'll bet the first time this country discovers criminal activity done with a VOIP, the public outcry will be incredible and there will be nothing Vonage, the FCC or anyone can do to stop the flood of regulation cries that will follow. Phone taps are there for a reason.
Nothing is being stifled. If anything, the people who developed this technology should have seen this coming but were in such a rush to get to market, they forgot a few things.
said by calvoiper :Maybe you'd enjoy seeing the US choke off innovation and lose what little leading role we have left in technology development, but I'm not yet ready to turn it all over to the bureaucrats who are both too lazy and too stupid to deal with new, innovative technology. US companies do a good enough job of doing that already without the help of the government.
said by calvoiper :This FCC Order represents a colossal failure of the regulatory bureaucracy to do anything other than effectively say, "Duh. I don't wanna tax my brain to figure out how this new stuff really works, so I'll just say it has to work just like the old stuff. And I don't care if our action today doesn't really affect terrorism much 'cause terrorists can still use the P2P flavor of the new stuff, whatever that is--it's only my job to make a decision, and we'll just do as much of it as we can the old way." calvoiper Again, nothing new from this FCC. They can't figure out anything. Look at the BPL fiasco. This all came about when they stopped using engineers and started using lawyers as commissioners.
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  calvoiper
join:2003-03-31 Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| VOIP developers didn't "forget a few things". They made decisions very similar to those made by cellular developers, particularly regarding 9-1-1 and customer anonymity.
The public hears daily about how "anonymous" or "disposable" cellphones are used in criminal activity, and how cellular phones have limited 9-1-1. Still, the cellular industry got around 180 months to install E-9-1-1, while VOIP is getting around 180 days, and VOIP providers are being forced to expensively expand the scope of CALEA wiretappable calls.
The difference? The whining Baby Bells all had, and still have, a piece of the cellular action. On the other hand, they're late to the game on VOIP, and they're trying to kill it.
At least we agree on the FCC, moonpuppy.
calvoiper -- VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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 moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21 Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by calvoiper :VOIP developers didn't "forget a few things". They made decisions very similar to those made by cellular developers, particularly regarding 9-1-1 and customer anonymity. The public hears daily about how "anonymous" or "disposable" cellphones are used in criminal activity, and how cellular phones have limited 9-1-1. Still, the cellular industry got around 180 months to install E-9-1-1, while VOIP is getting around 180 days, and VOIP providers are being forced to expensively expand the scope of CALEA wiretappable calls. The first cell phones were tested in the early 70's. GPS, the primary way to track cell phones for emergencies did not become mature until the 80's. While you could track via cell sites, it was still hard to. Plus, anyone with a scanner for 800Mhz could listen to the older analog systems.
Cell phones were also mandated to carry 911 calls for free no matter what.
Ad for criminal activity, we hear all the time how police track cell phone calls and can get instant listings to numbers called before anyone can get their bills.
said by calvoiper :The difference? The whining Baby Bells all had, and still have, a piece of the cellular action. On the other hand, they're late to the game on VOIP, and they're trying to kill it. When the first cell systems came out, the FCC mandated that there be 2 systems per area. A non-wireline "A" (no local wires) company and a wireline "B" (local phone) company. This created not only instant competition but also made sure the local telcos played fair. (God forbid the FCC do something right again like this.)
VOIP could easily be killed not by the telcos but by any high speed ISP. Imagine Comcast all of sudden classifying VOIP traffic as P2P and throttling it. All of the shills will say, "Read the TOS, THEY CAN DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO." Plus, they could offer their own VOIP product and effectively kill all Independent VOIP competition.
said by calvoiper :At least we agree on the FCC, moonpuppy. calvoiper Yes, we do.  |
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  calvoiper
join:2003-03-31 Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Actually, triangulation preceded GPS as a location method for cellphones--and mandatory passage of 9-1-1 calls wasn't by any means an original requirement--it came much later, only as states determined who should get the calls. In some areas, calls were then routed based on the cell site location, while in other areas (like California) all cell calls go to the state police (CHP in Cal.) which results in a near statewide clustermess.
You may see law enforcement getting instant subscriber info on "NCIS" or "CSI", but it's far from that quick in reality--and that is only subscriber info, which may have little to do with the location the call is coming from, for either cellular or VOIP. And with "prepaid" (A/K/A "disposable") cellphones, there may not be any valid subscriber info to be had.
Yes, the original "A/B" cellular system "gave" (FOR FREE, mind you) half the spectrum to the local telcos, including the Baby Bells, and gave the other half to lottery winners. This was done because the Baby Bells had threatened to refuse PSTN connections to cellular carriers if they didn't get at least half of the pie.
The resulting comfortable duopoly kept cellular prices high (recall $49.95/mo for 20 included minutes, with additional minutes @ $0.35 and long distance for an additional $0.20, with no night/weekend discounts and NO FREE MINUTES EVER?) Prices didn't drop until NexTel challenged some markets with its cobbled-together approach and finally really got competitive when the PCS frequencies came on line (following another colossal clustermess by the FCC.)
And as for the early testing in the '70's, I well remember using a Motorola "brickphone" prototype at a demo in 1973 on the campus of the U. of Illinois. How Motorola managed to let more than a decade pass before convincing bureaucrats to allow this technology to be deployed is the hidden story of the loss of one of the largest competitive leads in US history.
calvoiper -- VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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 moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21 Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by calvoiper :You may see law enforcement getting instant subscriber info on "NCIS" or "CSI", but it's far from that quick in reality--and that is only subscriber info, which may have little to do with the location the call is coming from, for either cellular or VOIP. And with "prepaid" (A/K/A "disposable") cellphones, there may not be any valid subscriber info to be had. I know people in law enforcement and it might not be that quick but it can be done in under 24 hours.
Prepaids are are issue but they can be traced multiple ways. 
said by calvoiper :Yes, the original "A/B" cellular system "gave" (FOR FREE, mind you) half the spectrum to the local telcos, including the Baby Bells, and gave the other half to lottery winners. This was done because the Baby Bells had threatened to refuse PSTN connections to cellular carriers if they didn't get at least half of the pie. The resulting comfortable duopoly kept cellular prices high (recall $49.95/mo for 20 included minutes, with additional minutes @ $0.35 and long distance for an additional $0.20, with no night/weekend discounts and NO FREE MINUTES EVER?) Prices didn't drop until NexTel challenged some markets with its cobbled-together approach and finally really got competitive when the PCS frequencies came on line (following another colossal clustermess by the FCC.) Actually, with Verizon, I paid $14.95/mo for 200 off-peak minutes. Never used it during the day unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. Additional peak minutes were $0.65/min. I have had a cell phone since 1991. With additional competition, the prices have plummeted.
I would have actually like to have seen the phone companies try and stop this. It would have been funny to hear the outcry.
said by calvoiper :And as for the early testing in the '70's, I well remember using a Motorola "brickphone" prototype at a demo in 1973 on the campus of the U. of Illinois. How Motorola managed to let more than a decade pass before convincing bureaucrats to allow this technology to be deployed is the hidden story of the loss of one of the largest competitive leads in US history. calvoiper Who knows what goes through the bureaucrats' minds. Probably lobbyist money.  |
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  calvoiper
join:2003-03-31 Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Well, I've asked the question of old Motorola hands. They uniformly respond that the FCC was holding it up at the behest of the Bell System, which hadn't figured out how to monopolize it yet. Eventually, Ma Bell settled for half a monopoly.
calvoiper -- VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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