sbeasley
join:2005-06-28
Albion, IN
4 edits | Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear From what I understand Frenzel zones for 5.8GHz are much smaller than say 900 MHz, and from what I've read 900 MHz is the best solution for NLOS setups, but then I came across this.
Introducing GigAccessTM OFDM 5.8 Broadband Wireless Access (B.W.A) system.
Using Orthogonal Frequency Division Multiplexing (OFDM) GigAccessTM OFDM 5.8 delivers high data rates coupled with great spectral efficiency and NLOS capabilities
How can it have NLOS? Is it because it is using this OFDM technology? If so how effective is it compared to 900 MHz.
Here is what the area around my house looks like in about a 2.5 mi diamater, as you can see this is pretty wooded. All those trees are about 60-70 ft high. Elevation changes are about +/- 20 ft
I'm pretty much right in the center
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
 ·CenturyLink
| Re: 5.8 GHz Gear said by sbeasley  :Introducing GigAccessTM OFDM 5.8 Broadband Wireless Access (B.W.A) system. Using Orthogonal Frequency Division Multiplexing (OFDM) GigAccessTM OFDM 5.8 delivers high data rates coupled with great spectral efficiency and NLOS capabilities How can it have NLOS? Is it because it is using this OFDM technology? If so how effective is it compared to 900 MHz. You might mention that this is WaveIP gear...so people know what you are referring to.
»www.waveip.com
The answer to your question is 'yes'.
Did you check out their 900 MHz OFDM gear...??
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 | sbeasley
join:2005-06-28
Albion, IN
1 edit | Re: 5.8 GHz Gear Yes I was originally going to use that, until I read about the 5.8 Gear, so I wanted to make sure I was making the best decision. I've included a pic of the area around where I'm going to install in the above post. | |
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| | | sbeasley
join:2005-06-28
Albion, IN
| Re: 5.8 GHz Gear Do you know when the 900 OFDM gear is to be out? I'm looking to start buying equipment in the next couple of months, and if it is going to be in 3 mo, I may wait, just for it.
Thanks for the tree comment. I thought that I did have a lot of trees, but from atleast the WaveIP side of things there is no difference in price between the 900 MHz and the 2.4 GHz, but I would rather have the ease of install with the RSU that they have. They have a RSU for the 2.4 gear, but I don't think that it would get very far. | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Re: 5.8 GHz Gear said by sbeasley :Do you know when the 900 OFDM gear is to be out? I'm looking to start buying equipment in the next couple of months, and if it is going to be in 3 mo, I may wait, just for it. Ummmm...you should wait. I think that this will fit in with your timeframe. It should be "widely available" at that time.
Trust me...!
The RSU rocks! I would have to say that it one of the major reasons that I like the WaveIP gear. The 2.4 RSU will work also...it just needs to be near a window, pointed in the right direction.
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| | | | | sbeasley
join:2005-06-28
Albion, IN | Re: 5.8 GHz Gear I think I will wait then, will the price be comparable to the current 900 MHz gear or do you expect a price increase? | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp | Re: 5.8 GHz Gear Pricing should remain the same...from what I have been told.
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| | | | | | | sbeasley
join:2005-06-28
Albion, IN | Re: 5.8 GHz Gear Sadly this has become quickly off target, but atleast I've gotten my questions answered. Thanks John for all your help. Now I must wait and drool over this new gear that is coming out. | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp | Re: 5.8 GHz Gear Hmmmm...I thought that I answered your question...
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| | | | | | | | | sbeasley
join:2005-06-28
Albion, IN
1 edit | Re: 5.8 GHz Gear You did. I said that atleast I got my questions answered, and I said thanks. What more did you want
Unless your name isn't John Galt... Then who are you? | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp | Re: 5.8 GHz Gear I guess I was questioning the "sadly" part...
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| | | | | | | | | sbeasley
join:2005-06-28
Albion, IN | Re: 5.8 GHz Gear Sorry about that I guess I was saying sadly it went off topic, because I don't like to change the subject, as I feel it is bad forum ettiquette | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Re: 5.8 GHz Gear Here is another topo map that shows the elevation changes using shading...
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| | | | | | | | | sbeasley
join:2005-06-28
Albion, IN | Re: 5.8 GHz Gear Thanks that pretty useful. | |
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wispman
join:2004-12-21
USA | Re: Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear OFF TOPIC
What does a single unit of the wave ip 900 cpe cost? | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Re: Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear said by wispman :OFF TOPIC What does a single unit of the wave ip 900 cpe cost? OFF TOPIC REPLY!!
About $400-$500, depending on if you use the RSU indoor or the OSU outdoor units.
More or less...
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| | sbeasley
join:2005-06-28
Albion, IN
| Re: Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear You can go to »mwinfra.digitalwhispers.net/ which is Curt Gordy's site, and check out prices he has
RSU $399
OSU $499
He also has a High End SU listed for $499, but I don't know what the difference between it and the OSU is. | |
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| | | bcbuie
join:2005-07-20
| Re: Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear You need the High End OSU to do the consecutive AP deal I believe. It also gives you twice the bandwidth on the same channel width (I'm not sure if that applies to their 5MHZ narrowband product, probably not which is why the price dropped on it). It basically has two processors instead of one.
I don't think the 900MHZ OFDM gear is supposed to be public knowledge yet, Curt will probably freak if he sees this (hey, at least it wasn't me who broke the news)  But 7Mbps of usable IP throughput on a 5MHZ channel is hard not to get excited about. | |
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| | | | bcbuie
join:2005-07-20
| Re: Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear John is right, I would stick with the 900 band for heavy trees. Although it doesn't look like your tree situation is bad, mine makes that look like a walk in the park
5.8GHZ NLOS is most effective in city environments where multipath reflections from buildings are your main problem (and not so much absorption by trees).
900MHZ OFDM would be the best of all worlds obviously. Some people don't like 900 for the "interference problems", but honestly with H-POL and with everyone moving up the band to 2.4GHZ or 5.8GHZ, interference isn't really a huge issue any more than it is with any other band (unless it is licensed). I imagine 2 years from now 2.4GHZ and 5.8GHZ will be much more crowded than 900MHZ. | |
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| | | | | cgordy
join:2004-02-12
Kansas City, MO
| Re: Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear The 5.8Gear is a great PTP or PTMP solution. We just got the firmware upgrade today that increases throughput per AU to 30MBPS IP throughput. We have links 20 miles off of a 90degree sector.
But for the ability to use the RSU's in large scale with trees you absolutely want to use the 900Mhz product.
In the unlicensed you will soon see their 2.4OFDM as well. 20Mhz = 30Mbps IP throughput.
The 900OFDM is just starting to ship and is on backorder huge. We are deploying it currently with great results. We are putting 4 sectors of 5.8 and 8 sectors of 900 on each tower. 5.8 120Mbps total 900Mhz 56Mbps total. Nice solution. | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Re: Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear said by cgordy :We are deploying it currently with great results. We are putting 4 sectors of 5.8 and 8 sectors of 900 on each tower. 5.8 120Mbps total 900Mhz 56Mbps total. Nice solution. It probably should be noted that all of these AP's are GPS sync'd...so they can co-exist peacefully.
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superdog
I Need A Drink
Premium,MVM
join:2001-07-13
Lebanon, PA
| said by bcbuie :900MHZ OFDM would be the best of all worlds obviously. Some people don't like 900 for the "interference problems", but honestly with H-POL and with everyone moving up the band to 2.4GHZ or 5.8GHZ, interference isn't really a huge issue any more than it is with any other band (unless it is licensed). I imagine 2 years from now 2.4GHZ and 5.8GHZ will be much more crowded than 900MHZ. I imagine that this may be the case in some places?, but in others, the total opposite is true. If You reside in an urban or even suburban area and there are a large amount of public works projects functioning(city water and sewerage, gas lines, petroleum storage facilities etc), the amount of 900Mhz noise is overwhelming to say the least. With older SCADA systems, their engineering is poor because of the age of the radios in use, and they tend to use up the entire band. In my area, the city is using V. polarity and the gas CO is using H polarity because they were interfering with each other. This has totally destroyed the 900 Mhz spectrum in my area. There are 3 WISP's here, and none of us have even tried 900Mhz because of his. I am sure that if I were to use Motorola gear, I would be able to link to customers, but then I wonder what the Motorola gear will do to the SCADA systems, considering what it does to other 2.4 and 5.8Ghz systems when deployed in areas where other less interference resistant gear have been in place before hand?
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Re: Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear said by superdog :If You reside in an urban or even suburban area and there are a large amount of public works projects functioning(city water and sewerage, gas lines, petroleum storage facilities etc), the amount of 900Mhz noise is overwhelming to say the least. With older SCADA systems, their engineering is poor because of the age of the radios in use, and they tend to use up the entire band. In my area, the city is using V. polarity and the gas CO is using H polarity because they were interfering with each other. This has totally destroyed the 900 Mhz spectrum in my area. In one city that I visited that was using 900 MHz, the WISP contacted the city departments and explained the situation. They understood that their old equipment was not playing nicely with others. They agreed that the WISP could handle their data for them, and the departments even bought the radios. The WISP provided the bandwidth for free. These sites send infrequent data that can be in the byte range, let alone kilobytes.
Everyone is happy.
Before anyone comments on the obvious...all of these systems operate under local automatic control, that is, they do not require the radio link to function properly. They can be controlled by the radio, but it is not REQUIRED. The reason for this is that it is recognized that the radio can fail, or be interfered with, so the controls constructor builds them to operate independently in an automatic mode.
Maybe you should try a Motorola AP in your area. The other users are subject to the same rules that you are...acceptance of interference, so on and so forth.
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| | | | | dr_boom
join:2002-04-10
Pataskala, OH | Has anyone looked at the 700Mhz OFDM? Wouldn't this be better for NLOS through heavy trees than the 900Mhz OFDM? | |
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| | | | | | ludde
join:2005-08-02
Wilmington, NC
| Re: Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear Is there any radio expert out there?
I would like to know if OFDM is inherently better at sustaining higher modulatiion than that is CDMA.
Since the bitrate of each data stream on the different tones is quite low then Intra Symbol Interference could also be kept low? Meaning that one could use higher modulation without losing data. | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp | Re: Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear Start this as a new thread...
It is a good question and shouldn't get "buried"...
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DejanCDN
join:2004-11-17
Kuwait | OFDM will help with NLOS in urban environments, but I doubt very much it will do anything for trees...not at 5.8 | |
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Believer
join:2002-07-04
Baltimore, MD | 700MHz is a licensed frequency so while it should work a lot better than 900MHz, you'd need the frequency license to use it. | |
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| sbeasley
join:2005-06-28
Albion, IN | Re: Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear Right and in my area the license has already been bought. The FCC auctioned it off a while back, and mine got bought up. | |
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scooby
Premium
join:2001-05-01
Schaumburg, IL | If the 900 OFDM is starting to ship, why are there not any specs on the waveip site? I'd love to see the price on a starter kit, ap's, sm's, etc. | |
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| sbeasley
join:2005-06-28
Albion, IN
| Re: Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear Curt Gordy says he is going to get a spec sheet together, but I haven't seen anything yet. WaveIP gave me a quote as follows
Prices for GigAccess(tm) OFDM 900 MHz:
Access Unit (AU) - Includes: Outdoor Radio Unit (with external antenna port), power supply, Mounting Hardware, Outlet and screws : $1396.
Outdoor Subscriber Unit (OSU) - Includes: Outdoor Radio Unit (with external antenna port), power supply, Mounting Hardware, Outlet and screws : $546
Residential Subscriber Unit (RSU) - Includes: Self install Indoor Radio with integrated antenna and power supply: $446
I hope this helps | |
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| sbeasley
join:2005-06-28
Albion, IN | Wave IP OFDM 900 MHz Gear @scooby, and all those else who are interested.
I just received the spec sheet for the new 900 MHz OFDM Gear, and you can find it here: Clickie | |
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scooby
Premium
join:2001-05-01
Schaumburg, IL | Thanks! pricing is not bad. | |
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kewlkeed
Grouch
Premium
join:2005-02-05
Knowlton, QC
1 edit | ====
Sorry killed my last post (Got my answer) but have a second question
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I just called a distributer for WaveIP (won't give names) and he basically shot the product down. He wasn't openly bashing them but he made it very clear that he didn't think the product was any good. Has anyone here had any bad issues with their equipment or was I just a victim of someone trying to sell me another line instead?...
Sorry for hijacking the post a bit, just PM me if you have an answer and we'll keep it on track. Thanks! | |
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| wispman
join:2004-12-21
USA | Re: Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear I sure have heard the opposite. They cost the most. And you generally get what you pay for. Decide for yourself. | |
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scooby
Premium
join:2001-05-01
Schaumburg, IL | what product did they "suggest"? | |
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kewlkeed
Grouch
Premium
join:2005-02-05
Knowlton, QC
1 edit | He suggested Motorola. So yeah 
Chances have it motivated by another company.
I'd like to try the WaveIP units myself but given the price it's a bit hefty to just fork out if the units aren't any good. Most everyone I know speaks pretty highly of them but this was the first I heard someone flat out say there were no good. | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Re: Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear said by kewlkeed :Most everyone I know speaks pretty highly of them but this was the first I heard someone flat out say there were no good. Motorola is no good...so there, everything is even now.
The distributor probably makes more profit on the Motorola gear.
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| | bcbuie
join:2005-07-20
| Re: Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear My distributor said the same thing about WaveIP, they are a huge Motorola and Trango outfit though. I imagine we are talking about the same distributor (quadruple diameter).
Actually I didn't find out they could even get WaveIP because they didn't list it on their website, which is how I discovered Curt Gordy.
Having a big distributor is great at times (they can help you get good prices, they stock product so you don't have to, etc.), but distributors, like anyone else, push manufacturers that they have agreements with and can make a decent profit on. In the end though if you tell them you are going a certain way they can get product for you. Since I had already been working with Curt on the WaveIP gear I am sticking with him for that stuff, everything else I get through Double Radius (except for the MTI horizontal omni which they couldn't get, so I got that through Winncom).
FYI, Curt gave us a trial period on the starter kits ($2,500.00, basically an AU, and RSU, and an OU plus all the software). We had to pay up front obviously, but he said if we didn't like the product we could return the kit within 30 days assuming it was in good condition (we would still have to cover shipping). He is very confident about the product. The starter kit is nice because it comes preconfigured so you can hook it up and do ping tests right away.
I'm not sure if they will do a trial on the OFDM gear, it is already back-ordered.
To be honest the fact that we were taken seriously by WaveIP and given a trial period was a part of the reason we went with them (besides the stuff working great and the killer software). We called Motorola and Trango first and all they wanted to talk about was 50-unit pricing, and they almost laughed when we asked about a trial period. The Motorola guy said, and I quote, "I hope you aren't seriously deciding which equipment to buy based on which manufacturer's give you free equipment." I quickly replied, it isn't free equipment (we paid upfront for it), I just want to have a recourse if the equipment doesn't work. His attitude was basically, "hey, we are Motorola, of course it will work." Yeah right. I just don't understand the risk for these companies. Worst case they get working equipment back barely used which they can easily turn around and resell. I mean, at single unit pricing they have a ton of margin already in their product, so it should be no big deal.
I'm not saying we will never buy Canopy gear in the future, but that left a bad taste in my mouth.
My 2 cents.
Ben | |
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kewlkeed
Grouch
Premium
join:2005-02-05
Knowlton, QC
| Hehehe!
That's what I figured, guy was just trying to get a bigger commission. PHEW. Had me a bit worried there. I'm really starting to consider these units and it was just odd to hear someone outright tell me they're no good. Especially someone selling them. | |
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kewlkeed
Grouch
Premium
join:2005-02-05
Knowlton, QC
| Thanks Ben,
Wasn't the same distributer though. Won't mention the name because I'm sure it'll get back to them and I don't want anyone over there to get buttkicked just because moto wanted them to make more sales.
I've been looking around and Curt definitly seems to be "The man" when it comes to WaveIP so I'm going to be giving him a call tommorrow morning and see what I can come up with.
Basically got a similar reply from the distributer though, if we didn't want 50+ of the units then they wanted nothing to do with us. And trial period was definitly no go. I'm sorry but I don't rely on the name to sell me something, I want it to actually WORK. Buy enough of this stuff and it's worth more than a small car, if a car dealership refused to let me test something that I'm gonna pump mucho deniro into I'd walk out. So yeah, too bad motorola but "No Sale For You!"  | |
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snowpro2000
join:2004-06-13
Canada | Hey, I don't mind telling you what distributor it was pushing Moto....Its TESSCO.They have branches all over the place so.....
Paul | |
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IntraLink
Premium,MVM
join:2002-08-14
Utah Valley
| Re: Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear I would consider Tessco a higher standard of distributer.
They've stopped distributing more than a few wireless companies products because of shoddy product or crappy policies.
They push Motorola for several reasons, not all because of commission. | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Re: Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear said by IntraLink :They've stopped distributing more than a few wireless companies products because of shoddy product or crappy policies. Just to play the Devil's advocate...
So...if TESSCO doesn't carry it, it is shoddy or crap?
TESSCO is a high-level player supplying national carriers...much in the same way that Motorola is. It is necessary to understand that all companies are not alike, and that they do not occupy the same niche, or service the same customer base.
Go to their site and see what product lines they carry:
»www.tessco.com/
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IntraLink
Premium,MVM
join:2002-08-14
Utah Valley
| Re: Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear After watching and ordering from them for several years I've noticed they tend to have the same opinions as I do regarding "quality" wireless equipment for the most part.
Of course they follow their own game plan that is revenue driven. I guess they've figured out that carrying faulty branded eqiupment is costing them more in the long run...
This has nothing to do with WaveIP equipment though, which seems like a great solution to me at the moment. | |
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bcbuie
join:2005-07-20
| Uh, Tessco is a pretty major distributor of WaveIP (there is a link to Tessco on WaveIP's web page), so I would be surprised if they are bashing the product. Is that the distributor the original poster was referring to?
If so WaveIP needs to know this, no point in basically advertising for Tessco if Tessco isn't going to support the product.
On the other hand, I wouldn't consider Tessco to be a "premium" distributor. They are big but that is about it. Pricing and support wise there are other distributors that are FAR superior, such as DoubleRadius and Winncom.
Having said that, distributors like manufacturers who support the distribution channel, giving good discounts to distributors and not selling direct. WaveIP could have gotten a bad name in distribution circles by undercutting distributors for all we know. All I know is the WaveIP stuff just works, so I'll get it any way I can. | |
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bcbuie
join:2005-07-20 | FYI, Tessco was just dropped from WaveIPs web page
Ben | |
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Believer
join:2002-07-04
Baltimore, MD
| I've noticed that Tessco seems to drop items from the web page frequently. Go back a couple days later and they will be there again. For a few days I couldn't find any 5.7GHz Alvarion VL gear but there was plenty of 5.3GHz equipment available! | |
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bcbuie
join:2005-07-20 | No, I meant if you goto WaveIP's main web page it no longer lists Tessco as one of its distributors.
I'm glad they took them off, no reason to send customers the way of Tessco if they aren't going to support the product.
Ben | |
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| wispman
join:2004-12-21
USA | Re: Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear I'm sure WaveIP is smart enough to read this thread, make a few calls to Tessco asking noob questions to see who the really sell for..... | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Re: Wave IP OFDM 5.8 GHz Gear said by wispman :I'm sure WaveIP is smart enough to read this thread, make a few calls to Tessco asking noob questions to see who the really sell for..... With no disrespect towards TESSCO, I am sure that Curt supports the WaveIP line with much more attention than TESSCO.
Entirely different situations...
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