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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| reply to Gundam_MX
Re: Yay opression!
Capitalism, with its emphasis on decision-making by individuals and non-governmental corporations, encourages free thought and independent action. People accustomed to making valid choices about how much bath soap to make, or to order for their store, begin to wonder about why they don't get to have a say in how a local park is going to be redeveloped. Successful capitalists begin to take on the government directly.
Socialism, with its emphasis on central planning and decision-making, discourages independent thought and action, and as such provides a natural partner for totalitarian governments.
It is true that some totalitarian governments have allowed or encouraged some degree of capitalism--Hitler's prewar Germany had some degree of capitalism (if you weren't Jewish, for example) and Putin's current Russia has a good deal of capitalism, until the capitalists begin to criticize the government (as in the Yukos saga.)
Likewise, some democracies have varying degrees of socialism--Sweden is often thought to be significantly socialist, and socialized medicine is present in various democratic countries.
Capitalism doesn't "equal" democracy and freedom, it just encourages it.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| reply to rideboarder
Where paradise?
said by rideboarder  :.... edit: but I can say for sure that capitalism like it's done in the U.S. isn't a paradise either...unless you're rich. Yes, the intolerable condition of starting out poor in the US would be why we don't have huge waves of people trying to get in to the US. I mean, if we were really the land of opportunity, folks would be trying to get in, right?
What's that you say? Hordes of people ARE storming our borders, eager for the chance to live on the edge of our society as illegal immigrants? They are even RISKING THEIR LIVES to do so? And these are folks whose parents, children, siblings, and other family members have come ahead of them and told them the TRUTH about life in the US?
Well, maybe we aren't the pit of inescapable poverty that the lefty loonies would have us believe....
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| reply to wdoa
yeah, right.....
...and I remember when people were saying that General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler were running the company. Now one of them has been sold to the Germans and the other two are rated as "junk" investments.
While it may seem fun to dump on large corporations, they aren't nearly as omnipotent as you seem to think.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| reply to lazarus_
Re: Yay opression!
When your signature tagline includes "facts are meaningless", I suppose we should expect that your posts are all emotion without reference to facts?
At least that would explain why you think our government is doing things the way China and North Korea are. You should go live there for a year or so and see if you really believe we are close to that level.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
DSL Oberst
join:2001-11-29
| reply to Transmaster
You are correct this is the way I see China going. The one thing the Chinese people have always had for thousands of years is a love of business, they love to make money. Once the all of the Long March veterans in government are gone and the Chinese educated in the west start to take over this when things in China will start to change. Now they are not going to be a free and easy outfit like the EU is there are to many millennia of tradition to overcome.
Actually, the veterans of the Long March are already out of the government. The ceding of the premiership to Wen Jiabao and the presidency to Hu Jintao has shown that.
The Chinese government is not truly Communist and hasn't been since the death of Mao Tse-tung. In its current format, it is merely a highly socialist country with an absolute amount of control over its populace. It resembles the old Chinese Empire more than the Communist China we all learned about in school. Moneymaking and capitalism are encouraged - so long as the appropriate taxes and guangxi are paid. After all, a prosperous country is a good country.
But give up the social controls? In a pig's eye. The study of Neo-Confucianism integrated into Mao's Communist/socialist rhetoric will show that China's populace will never have the particular priveliges we enjoy - nor would they want to.
it will keep the peace, after all war is a expensive and money loosing thing. | |
Captain Obvious
| reply to MsGeek
Those are some interesting notes - Even though I am a Christian, and a republican, I still think every faith ought to get a fair shake in this country. If it was good enough for the FF to stick in the Bill of Rights, it's good enough for me. That said, the nut jobs in office now, while definitely right-wingers, aren't fundamentalists. I don't like fundamentalists, but these guys appear to be about the money and the power - religion is just a tool they use to keep "the base" in line.
Bush has screwed EVERY religion (including the Christians), even while whispering sweet nothings in their ear. Faith based charity was a sick joke, and the "God and Country" rhetoric is almost sickening in the context of going to war to settle a score. Cheney, and his cabal, have made sure all the energy companies made out like bandits. Now, we have Homeland Security securing the movie industry?
The only good thing is that, so far, the prohibition against multiple terms is still in place - so if enough people get to where they have had enough, we can remove these jackal-opes from office.
I still can't believe that 53% of this country voted for him - and I'm still angry with the democrats for running Kerry? For crying out loud, why not just concede the election if you are going to run a clown like Kerry. I don't know who they republicans are going to run, but I sure hope I don't find myself in the position of having to vote for Hillary Clinton. (and no, it's not because she's a woman - it's because having grown up in AR, we know she's a crook) | |
Captain Obvious
| reply to lawrence171
The way I see it, both statements are true. Corporations are raping and pillaging the countryside, AND the government is swinging towards socialism. It could be argued that the government has little choice, though I disagree. By propping up the poor with welfare and other handouts, they are eliminating the political pressure for change.
This, to me, is the worst offense - as people who are taking handouts are generally not going to bite the hand that feeds them. So, as corporatism rises, socialism rises, and nothing changes. The people who have the money to make change, won't - because it's already good for them. The people who don't have the money, can't - lest they lose what little they have left.
Come to think of it - you may be right. We seem to be destined for corporate serfdom. Will we one day answer to Lord PHP instead of Manager PHP? | |
lawrence171
Evilly Yours - Evilness
join:2001-12-24
Canada
| reply to Captain Obvious
Are you certain?
Capitalism is all that US is... All the companies are driving the government either by controlling or forcing them (ie. buying out senators, and forcing people who want better internet to built their own network)
Perhaps, there will be enough of a gap between the rich and the poor that the country could split into two?
--
What I used to be I no longer am... God, why can't you freeze time for my sake? | |
BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
 ·Comcast
| reply to Captain Obvious
Well since we are screwed (history due to repeat itself) I am going to have massive amounts of sex in hopes of dieing before this happens.
By the way very interesting facts.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
rideboarder
welcome to the social
Premium
join:2003-07-28
Snohomish, WA
clubs:
| reply to DaveNJ
said by DaveNJ :said by rideboarder :said by Transmaster :Yes I know look at the paradise it is in Cuba and North Korea. what? I hope that isn't directed at me, since I never said anything at all that communism is a paradise. edit: but I can say for sure that capitalism like it's done in the U.S. isn't a paradise either...unless you're rich. Missing a great point here, in America you have a opportiunity to get rich, but in a socialist goverment you dont. AND in a Free society one which honors and respects its laws, of freedom of speech, and religion. Usually its spurs business, because too many laws kill off business, see sweden. The thing killing America the most now is the loss of freedom of speech, see politically correct. Also the disrepect to people of faith. I'm not missing a point at all. You are putting words in my mouth I never even said. All I ever said was that they should never go as far into capitalism as the U.S. did. That is all I said, I never said that communism is good. | |
Captain Obvious
| reply to BosstonesOwn
I would argue the biggest cause is apathy. When people take their liberty for granted, they become more interested in amusements and entertainment than in safeguarding that liberty. Eventually, societies become so enamored with their "bread and circuses" that, like the frog in the slowly warmed pot, they never notice that their liberty is gone until it is too late. Likewise, they begin to take for granted that their empire will never falter, or turn on them. They allow their leaders to elevate themselves higher and higher until their leaders begin seeing themselves as above the unwashed masses, and the unwashed masses as peasants to be lorded over.
Look closely at the histories of the empires I mentioned, and nearly all of them follow an eerily similar pattern.
Dynastic China: Emperor sends fleet of ships to all known points of the Earth - to tell them to get lost. Destroys fleet when they return, and then promptly starts a dark age far worse than that in Europe. So bad that items that were once common in China are "reinvented" millennium later. - Check
Classical Rome: Emperors believe they are gods, hold gladiatorial death matches to amuse the public. Encourage a thriving sex trade in the temples, because everyone knows you don't really care about squat once you've spent a long night "worshipping". Sustain popular support for wars by fomenting fears of "barbarians and worse" - Check
British Empire: Kings, and later, Parliaments, believe that they are so wise, they should completely do away with anything even remotely native wherever they land. With little regard to reality, they setup situations guaranteed to come back to bite everyone in the a** once their empire crumbles. Eventually, the whole empire becomes so unwieldy and expensive, that they finally throw in the towel and just give practically all if it back. - Check
Practically every other European empire of the day did the same sort of thing, so there is little point in being redundant.
Japanese Empire: Let's invade everyone - for fun AND profit. Hey, they were good at it. Unfortunately, the decision to bomb pearl harbor, thus setting off the biggest firestorm in the history of warfare, was probably a mistake. Many of their own military attempted to convey this to the Emperor, and their bodies were promptly dealt with later. Not listening to your own military when it comes to warfare. - Check.
In each of these cases, I suspect the citizens either didn't know, or didn't care, about what was going on. They were either busy making money, selling drugs, taking drugs, having sex, watching men hack themselves (or large animals) apart in large pits, or otherwise keeping themselves preoccupied. | |
FTCXtreme
join:2005-03-14
New Braintree, MA
| reply to BosstonesOwn
That's just hilarious. America will last a long time. It will fall, but not for a long time. If the U.S. still has the partiotism that created it back during the american Revolution, Or the patriotism that saved it during the civil war, World War 1 and World war 2, it'll take alot. The thing about all them empires, besides the Japnese, and Soviets, They were brought down by barbarians. America is being attack by barbarians or so to speak, and if history repeats itself, it'll take a long tim to fall. Japan, was destroyed by the US. The soviets, it was partially their fault, because of internal economic failures, and social revolution, and pressure from the US. | |
MsGeek
We Jam Econo On This Ship, Sailor
join:2001-06-06
Panorama City, CA
 ·DSL EXTREME
| reply to DaveNJ
said by DaveNJ The thing killing America the most now is the loss of freedom of speech, see politically correct. Also the disrepect to people of faith. [/BQUOTE:I'd have to agree with you as far as freedom of speech goes...there are two menaces to that, one being the "Watch what you do, watch what you say" attitude of the new Police State that sprang up like poisonous mushrooms after 9/11, the other being the growing trend towards limitless copyright and rent-seeking on intellectual property. What you call "Political Correctness" has shifted mightily towards censoring anything that isn't pro-Right Wing, pro-Bush, and pro-war. Disrespect to "people of faith?" Well, if your faith is Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Catholic Christianity, Wicca, Paganism or anything that isn't Fundamentalist Protestant Christianity, then yeah, your faith is being disrespected every day in George W. Bush's America. All the grants that have been going to "faith-based" charities have been going to those of the Protestant Christian faith. The Jewish Federation Council and B'nai Brith, deserving Jewish charities that they are, provide vital services to the poor and unfortunate all over the US, particularly in the Northeast and in the Los Angeles area. They have been doing this for at least 100 years. Have they gotten grants under Bush's new programs? No. And not for lack of trying either. As far as the more "far-out" faiths I mentioned, like Buddhism and Wicca...they have seen outright repression under Bush's administration. Just recently a conservative judge ruled that a child born to two Wiccan parents could not be educated in the faith he was born into. Those parents might lose custody of their child because of their beliefs. Buddhists and Unitarian Universalists have lost tax exempt status in Texas because they are "soft" on the idea of a supreme deity. You right-wing Fundies are not being disrespected. On the contrary, you are becoming the ruling caste in America. And you will not rest until everyone either believes as you do, leaves the country, or dies. If anything, it is you people who are weakening this country. The Founders are spinning in their graves. Oh yeah, regarding Sweden? They have one of the strongest economies in Europe. --
Linux. The choice of a GNU generation. Now available in several CPU flavors! | |
DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
·Comcast
·Patriot Media
| reply to rideboarder
said by rideboarder :said by Transmaster :Yes I know look at the paradise it is in Cuba and North Korea. what? I hope that isn't directed at me, since I never said anything at all that communism is a paradise. edit: but I can say for sure that capitalism like it's done in the U.S. isn't a paradise either...unless you're rich. Missing a great point here, in America you have a opportiunity to get rich, but in a socialist goverment you dont. AND in a Free society one which honors and respects its laws, of freedom of speech, and religion. Usually its spurs business, because too many laws kill off business, see sweden. The thing killing America the most now is the loss of freedom of speech, see politically correct. Also the disrepect to people of faith.
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Liberalism weakening The USA everyday... | |
rideboarder
welcome to the social
Premium
join:2003-07-28
Snohomish, WA
clubs:
1 edit | reply to Transmaster
said by Transmaster :Yes I know look at the paradise it is in Cuba and North Korea. what? I hope that isn't directed at me, since I never said anything at all that communism is a paradise.
edit: but I can say for sure that capitalism like it's done in the U.S. isn't a paradise either...unless you're rich. | |
BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
| reply to Captain Obvious
said by Captain Obvious:
No, it is actually an example of what stupid governance can bring about, as well as being a prime example of how power shifts almost cyclically. Think about it, the seat of "world domination" has shifted all over the globe. From the Africa, to the Middle East, to East Asia, to Europe, to the North America and North Asia, and now back to the Asian Pacific.
The US empire is declining just as surely as the Chinese, Roman, European (all of them), Japanese, and Soviet empires fell - and for largely the same reasons.
Greed ?
Religion ?
Sex ?
Don't leave me hanging here gimme an answer.
--
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
wdoa
join:2001-10-16
Spencer, MA
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to Captain Obvious
The US is not moving closer to Socialism, we are moving closer and closer to a dictatorship of the Corporations. The poor are getting poorer and the rich richer, and the middle class is vanishing. It's not so much a world of countries with democratic forms of government, and counties with totalitarian forms of government, but rather large bands of corporations making the call. Walmart is dead set against their workers joining a union in the US, but surprise surprise supports it in China where the Union is an offshoot of the Communist government.
If you are one of the rich, lucky you. If you are middle class are lower, look forward to a "retirement" of eating dog food and working greeting visitors at your local "Megalamart"... | |
Captain Obvious
| reply to rideboarder
No, it is actually an example of what stupid governance can bring about, as well as being a prime example of how power shifts almost cyclically. Think about it, the seat of "world domination" has shifted all over the globe. From the Africa, to the Middle East, to East Asia, to Europe, to the North America and North Asia, and now back to the Asian Pacific.
The US empire is declining just as surely as the Chinese, Roman, European (all of them), Japanese, and Soviet empires fell - and for largely the same reasons. | |
Captain Obvious
 from:
Transmaster
| reply to rideboarder
This might be true, except that the US is no longer truly capitalist either. Our government has been swinging further and further into socialism for the last 50 years to the point. It has now reached the point where "capitalism" is almost illegal. | |
Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY | reply to rideboarder
Yes I know look at the paradise it is in Cuba and North Korea. | |
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