Rethink
join:2005-06-16
UK | reply to fiberguy
Re: Nice Speeds
I know a technology already that will give 1 Gig on a twised pair, so you're right already. |
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RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11 | reply to maartena
No, I meant direct to the physical phone itself. But whatever. |
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maartena
Stacked.
Premium
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to RadioDoc
said by RadioDoc  :"There are so many issues with copper in the buildings"So you are running fiber to the phones too? As a matter of fact yes  FIOS includes your phoneline, and the bad part of it is actually that they completely remove your copper so you can't go back to copper if you wanted to.
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And i'm right. I'm always right, but this time I'm a little more right then I usually am. |
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BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
| reply to bogey780
Your talking a nation wide scale I am talking area wide. As each area become profitable the money made there is used in another area. They are not stupid that is why verizon is rolling out the fiber.
Copper is dieing technology for telecom. As we become more wired to our world we need bigger and faster pipes. Nothing is accomplished by saving copper except pinching more pennies.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" |
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bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Here
| reply to BosstonesOwn
'Roll out like VZ is and after 12 months the service in the area breaks even.'
That's not even close to being accurate. VZ started something that'll take almost a decade to be completed and several more years before profit is seen.
Ask yourself what is accomplished by hanging onto copper if as you believe fiber is faster and cheaper? |
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Trollhawk
join:2005-05-28
3 edits | reply to fiberguy
I think you made the best point so far, fiberguy. It says right in the top paragraph, "...and will be appealing for companies looking for less expensive alternatives to running fiber straight to the home."
It's all about the money, people. Regardless of what technology is superior, it's all about ROI(return on investment), and each company will do what it believes will be most profitable within their own time frames.
I'm not bashing fiber, but would you rather wait 7+ years on 6Mbps broadband to get a 100Mbps fiber connection, or would you rather have 25Mbps xDSL within 2-3 years, and upgrade that to fiber in another 5+ years? And yes, I know Verizon is already deploying fiber, but how long will it take them reach 18 million households? That's the estimate another telco is saying they'll be able to reach with xDSL by 2007.
Let's not forget that xDSL is a technology, not a physical carrier like copper or fiber. Telcos don't have to run a new transmission medium to your house to enable xDSL. Only the endpoint equipment needs updating, perhaps even just a firmware update in some cases. That makes it much easier to bump up speeds until fiber can be run all the way to the prem.
Regarding T1's etc., VDSL will even replace those where it makes economical sense. Just like Tx's, VDSL can be run on multiple pairs. For those who only think in terms of price, speed is not the only determinant. Tx's cost more for their quality of service, ie- less downtime, quicker time to fix. VDSL will also be priced accordingly- more for Tx replacements, less for consumer VDSL.
Lastly, telcos employing VDSL are not doing it in lieu of running fiber. They are actually doing it while concurrently running fiber. For example, SBC's project lightspeed is an initiative to get fiber run to within ~5kft of each home, so that they can offer more people faster xDSL, in less time than it would take to run fiber to same amount of homes. The next logical step(assuming we don't all go wireless) would be to replace the "last mile" copper to the home with fiber.
So to sum up, I don't think VDSL is an alternative to fiber in the long run, but it is a very good "next step" before fiber reaches the majority of households. |
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Rfsjr2
Shop on Top
Premium
join:2001-08-11
Ferndale, WA
clubs:
| reply to fiberguy
said by fiberguy :People want it all right now but when the providers says to the consumer "open your pocket book" what do you say? I say "Great! Where do I sign?" 
I find consumers with real options to be a bit of a whiny lot.
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*Frank* EL SRS. DW4000. G4R 970_.42. W2K Pro SP4. DAK421_P15_C1. Wired LAN, 3 clients. |
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nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
 ·Speakeasy
| reply to Gunslinger03
VDSL2 relies on bonding loops. That means, for each speed multiple, instead of one loop/port, you need multiple. Fibre can essentially be dialed up without chewing up more ports.
-tom
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"Some people have morals, standards and ideals about quality, but I'm an American: I couldn't care less." --Tony Pierce (paraphrased) |
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BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
| reply to bogey780
Honestly look at the telco's and tell me that is what they are trying to do !
They are trying to hang on to an out dated system. They need to get on the bandwagon like VZ and use their collective power to lower costs on equipment. Why rebuild 4 times to get what could be done today ?
Roll out like VZ is and after 12 months the service in the area breaks even. If half sign up then 24 months. BFD the system will be in place for at least 10 years maybe more seeing as there is no known transport as fast as fiber at the moment and much of the work being done is to make fiber faster.
We have hit a technology saturation point and until some one discovers a major break threw in quantum physics there won't be much more to do. Bear in mind that copper has lasted over 100 years. If Fiber makes it 30 years they will see the same profits as copper did over that 100 years.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" |
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bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Here
| reply to BosstonesOwn
...and what if they need terrabit speed? With current usage VDSL2 could handle anything people need.
You are arguing as if VDSL is the end technology. It's not. Not SBC, BellSouth or any Telco is arguing it is. They're arguing that it's the best way to get people the speeds they want and need quickly and without bancrupting the company. |
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BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
| reply to bogey780
said by bogey780 :At 100Mb/s there's gonna have to be a huge demand. how so ? what if demand for 200 mbit becomes the norm ? 8 pairs to the home now ? at what point does the cabling become to cumbersome and stiff ? How many strands can you fit in one of the pole taps ? You gonna fit 800 strands for 100 people ? or What happens if they need gig e speeds ? 4000 strands for the single 100 person block ? At what point does it get to the saturation point.
Fiber has none of those issues.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" |
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BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
| reply to Nik1108
said by Nik1108 :Because running copper is cheaper as it doesn't have to be 6ft deep in the ground like fiber. Nope , Next
Copper and fiber don't need to be trenched fios is lashing their fiber to copper that is in place at the moment and/or running it the same as copper.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" |
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vagabond
Truckin' Geek
join:2004-03-08
clubs:
| reply to fiberguy
said by fiberguy :People want it all right now but when the providers says to the consumer "open your pocket book" what do you say? I thought so. SO TRUE, people bitch about paying $26.99 for 256/256 DSL. LOL
Anyways I wonder if Qwest will look into this, they have regular VDSL in parts of Omaha, Phoenix and Denver. It would probably cost alot to change all the existing USAMS though. The reason that VDSL has not expanded at all in Qwest's territory is because it's not profitable enough.
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qwesttalk dot com |
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maartena
Stacked.
Premium
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to webnetwiz
said by webnetwiz :Because fiber can do gig speeds in the future, and one copper pair won't. Not only that. A single fibre optic cable will be able to deliver 200 HDTV channels, 4 phone lines for the house, 1 Gbps Internet, Dedicated "small-band" connections to your alarm company and other services.... all through one cable.
Fiber technology also allows for much easier splitting of services on said cable, where your cable company leases part of it for TV and your ISP uses another part of it for broadband, if you choose to use different companies.
I don't foresee that possibility with copper wires. At leaast, it will be limited a lot more then fiberoptics.
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And i'm right. I'm always right, but this time I'm a little more right then I usually am. |
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bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Here | reply to BosstonesOwn
At 100Mb/s there's gonna have to be a huge demand. |
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RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to webnetwiz
"There are so many issues with copper in the buildings"
So you are running fiber to the phones too?
VDSL2 is a complement to fiber, and eventually that part of the local "loop" can even be replaced with fiber without starting over. This technology leverages existing infrastructure to deliver the goods now, not 25 years from now.
Verizon went straight to fiber mostly because they had to. Their outside copper plant is quickly dissolving from decades of mismanagement and deferred maintenance.
Try again. |
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Nik1108
VIP
join:2002-01-16
Nampa, ID | reply to BosstonesOwn
Because running copper is cheaper as it doesn't have to be 6ft deep in the ground like fiber. |
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quetwo
That VoIP Guy
Premium
join:2004-09-04
East Lansing, MI
| reply to webnetwiz
said by webnetwiz :Because fiber can do gig speeds in the future, and one copper pair won't. This technology requires at least two pairs -- depending on the distance from the CO. This would at least double the number of wires required to run DSL to the modem. |
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BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
| reply to bogey780
What happens when those pair demands are so big that they have to run another copper cable down the road to keep up with demand ? Ahh yeah run another copper cable.
Nahh run fiber now upgrade the equipment at both ends and be done with it for awhile.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" |
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EnasYorl
Thieves World
join:2001-12-02
West
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to Gunslinger03
said by Gunslinger03 :Wow. 100Mbps symmetrical over VDSL2...that is amazing. Why again is fiber being rolled out? BECAUSE, you can do a entire Video Lineup over FIBER today!
Verizon is going after CATV's video customers. Hight Speed Data is a bonus. |
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