voiplover
Premium
join:2004-05-28
Portsmouth, NH
 ·callwithus
·Axvoice
1 edit | VOIP and 911 solutions. Looking for suggestions?
Our input is needed. I have read some good threads here and I think that a solution is needed before we lose our edge with voip.
I've posted it before and I'll post it again;
How hard could it be for voip providers to supply their subscribers with stickers saying "NOT FOR 911 CALLS"?
A simple red phone sticker that boldly states; "911 may not work with this phone. To call local emergency services dial (to be added by subscriber) 1-XXX-XXX-XXXX. The address at this location is __________________________"
Please post your suggestions.
Thank you. |
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vonsen
Just Because
Premium
join:2005-01-06
| Re: VOIP and 911 solutions. Looking for suggestio
It's a good idea but I don't think that it will stop imposed 911 services or rising costs. Why? Because the US is waaaaay too litigeous for a reasonable solution to work. The telco SIG groups will end up imposing 911 on voip whether you want it or not. We might as well get out our chequebooks now.
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rjackson
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join:2002-04-02
Ringgold, GA
clubs:
Host:
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| reply to voiplover
Re: VOIP and 911 solutions. Looking for suggestions?
Just printing the address on or near the phone still won't solve the problem of E911. If you're choking and can't speak, you won't be able to give that information to the operator. Also most people (unless properly trained) tend to freak out in an emergency situation and forget simple information. If you're panicking you may not remember the address printed next to the phone, or even be able to see straight enough to read.
The problem with VoIP is by nature it's more mobile and dynamic than traditional wirelines, so there's no practical way to map physical location to IP address or SIP login. The only solution I can think of to add E911 service that works just like "real" E911 is to build something like a GPS unit into the ATA, IP phone, etc. that could transmit geographic location to the operator on the other end. Obviously it would add to the cost of equipment, but nearly every cell phone has GPS for E911 and I can personally say it works because I've used it. |
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joako
Premium
join:2000-09-07
/dev/null
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| reply to voiplover
Re: VOIP and 911 solutions. Looking for suggestio
What are the chances that you are outdoors when you need to call 911 on your mobile phone?
My Nextel phone has GPS which I sometimes use the locator on. If it cannot aquire GPS signal it will provide the address of the cell phone tower, the one by my house is almost 2 miles away!
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DrTCP
Yours truly
Premium,ExMod 1999-04
join:1999-11-09
Round Rock, TX
| said by joako  :What are the chances that you are outdoors when you need to call 911 on your mobile phone? My Nextel phone has GPS which I sometimes use the locator on. If it cannot aquire GPS signal it will provide the address of the cell phone tower, the one by my house is almost 2 miles away! As far as I know, They can triangulate you using multiple towers narrowing the size of area to be searched much smaller but it is not accurate as GPS. |
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DrTCP
Yours truly
Premium,ExMod 1999-04
join:1999-11-09
Round Rock, TX
| reply to voiplover
Re: VOIP and 911 solutions. Looking for suggestions?
said by voiplover :A simple red phone sticker that boldly states; "911 may not work with this phone. To call local emergency services dial (to be added by subscriber) 1-XXX-XXX-XXXX. The address at this location is __________________________" Please post your suggestions. Thank you. It does not work because Emergency center (PSAP) does not have a published 7 or 10 digit number that you can dial. 911 is routed through dedicated trunks etc. and when load is heavy there are backup PSAPs that get the call. |
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garys_2k
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
·Future Nine Corpor..
·Vonage
| reply to voiplover
Re: VOIP and 911 solutions. Looking for suggestio
The solution is NOT to shoehorn a bridge between VoIP and the PSTN/E911 network. Suggestions:
Build a new emergency service infrastructure that uses the packet switched network to deliver emergency calls to your PSAP. Call it X911 (for "extended") and let it carry all sorts of extra data besides address and phone number(s). It could carry alarm signals (fire and intrusion), live video and audio.
Force the telcoms to leave E911 active on every twisted pair they terminate. This would cost money, they'd have to get reimbursed. Use an ATA that could direct 911 to this circuit.
There are others, too, I suppose. |
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WhyADuck
Premium
join:2003-03-05
| said by garys_2k :Force the telcoms to leave E911 active on every twisted pair they terminate. This would cost money, they'd have to get reimbursed. I doubt it would cost them nearly as much money as they're currently spending on public relations firms, phony "astroturf" groups, and legislators and/or possibly even judges that can be "bought."
I still think my idea about electric meters was the best. Electric meters do not move, so require that at the time of install they contain a computer chip that has been pre-programmed prior to install to send out a data stream over the power line that contains the installation address (down to the individual apartment number, if each apartment is metered individually), a unique ID code associated with the meter, and the current meter reading, and also perhaps address information for a connection to the electric company's computers to send billing data, and a day of the month when that data should be transmitted. All VoIP adapters would be built to look for this data stream and if available, use it on 911 calls, and also to act as a "bridge" for the meter data onto the customer's local network so the electric company can read the meter remotely.
This is a win-win for everybody - the electric company gets the ability to read meters remotely (this should be limited by law to a once a month reading, or only what is required for accurate billing, so the company can't use time-of-day usage data against customers). If a customer doesn't have VoIP, the electric company could give customers an ATA-like device to plug in that would simply inject the meter readings onto their local network. In any case the address data stream available on the inside wiring would be unique to that address (as would the meter ID code) and that information could be used by a VoIP adapter to pinpoint the customer's location. If and when BPL comes to an area, the electric company could even install a small supplemental device that would transmit the meter readings back over the company's own network.
THAT would be the cheapest and most reliable solution. Of course the electric power industry would probably scream bloody murder about having to change out or retrofit all those electric meters (those things seem to last nearly forever!). You would see how much lives are worth if that was the only way to get accurate address information. Funny how the government wants to impose all sorts of safety requirements on its citizens but if they (or their friends in the big corporations) have to spend some money to protect lives, then suddenly the cost/benefit ratios come out. Maybe before the government requires VoIP companies to offer 911, the hypocrites ought to retrofit all the Humvees in Iraq with full armor. |
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desi0
@pacbell.n
| I disagree with everyone's response. I think we need to stop this herd mentality that goes "911 is good, we need to protect people with 911, life is unimagineable without it."
We need to remember that 911 is a social / governmental program
that will come at the price of governmental regulation.
Let's look at some facts. The Voip companies like vonage want to have their cake and eat it too. They do not want to be regulated as telephone companies by the goverment but want to call themselves "Broadband Telephone" companies. They profess that they do not have 911 but use terms such as E911 and alternate 911. Why? Because they want to reel in those people who get a warm and fuzzy feeling from telephones and 911. I agree with the states who are suing Vonage etc. Stop them from using the term 911 and even telephone company without being regulated. The new fees such as packet8's $1.50 per line are trying to compare themselves to regular phones and are crying out for government regulation.
What are the solutions?
1. People need to remeber that a Voip line is not a land-line nor a replacement- they can always get a landline with 911 separately.
2. Separate incoming and outgoing functions. the incoming number could be subject to governmental regulation and cost a lot. Outgoing would be cheap.
3. Start using the FWD model. No calls to PSTN - only to other people with Voip. This would be like Email. It would also restrict the value and expansion of Voip.
4. The government could see the new reality and start imposing its taxes and fees on long distance rates. This would reduce the cost of a phone line but increase the cost of phone usage. Knowing the government, this is likely to be a lose-lose situation.
5. Users start using their heads and becoming more realistic about Voip limitations and understand items such as downtime, lack of 911 and other voip issues. Snowballs chance in heck.
In summary, the closer Voip becomes associated with our phone system, the closer we get to regulation, unrealistic expectations and mindless customer whining. Unless we can makes the companies less greedy and the customers more intelligent, let's get used to the whining and the politics. |
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HowToGetThat
join:2004-01-11
|  reply to voiplover
said by voiplover :How hard could it be for voip providers to supply their subscribers with stickers saying "NOT FOR 911 CALLS"? A simple red phone sticker that boldly states; "911 may not work with this phone. i saw a similar thing a gray ata about the size of a Jul case a inch high with a white no 911 sticker on it.
does any one now which voip company this is?
i saw this in some office. |
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voiplover
Premium
join:2004-05-28
Portsmouth, NH
·callwithus
·Axvoice
| reply to rjackson
Re: VOIP and 911 solutions. Looking for suggestions?
said by rjackson :... If you're choking and can't speak, you won't be able to give that information to the operator. Also most people (unless properly trained) tend to freak out in an emergency situation and forget simple information. If you're panicking you may not remember the address printed next to the phone, or even be able to see straight enough to read. ... RJackson, just wondering... How long can you hold your breath while waiting for the EMS to show up? 
I agree with most of what you have to say, but if someone has made a decision to abandon pots line for voip, that is their choice to give up proper 911. The problem is when someone that doesn't know how to reach emergency services over the voip line wastes precious time redialing 911 without success. That is the reason for the stickers with the correct emergency phone numbers and the correct location on it. The sticker attaches directly to the phone.
As for cellphone GPS, that's great unless you are down town in a building with over ~1000 people residing there.
Anyway, thanks for the reply. |
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voiplover
Premium
join:2004-05-28
Portsmouth, NH
·callwithus
·Axvoice
| reply to DrTCP
said by DrTCP :said by voiplover : It does not work because Emergency center (PSAP) does not have a published 7 or 10 digit number that you can dial. 911 is routed through dedicated trunks etc. and when load is heavy there are backup PSAPs that get the call. How do you think that we called into the PD and Fire Departments before we had 911? 
Any dispatch center that existed before the implement of 911 has the same dial in #'s that they had before. The only thing that may have changed is the area code if the local area code changed.  |
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kruser
Premium
join:2002-06-01
Saint Louis, MO
clubs:
 ·AT&T Southwest
| reply to voiplover
said by voiplover :As for cellphone GPS, that's great unless you are down town in a building with over ~1000 people residing there. Anyway, thanks for the reply. Actually I don't think that even the cell phones with GPS are worth a darn figuring elevation in very tall buildings.
I thought I recall that figuring altitude with a GPS is hit and miss for reliability.
Imagine a 50 story building.
Which floor shall I search now? |
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voiplover
Premium
join:2004-05-28
Portsmouth, NH | The one with the best coffee shop!  |
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kruser
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join:2002-06-01
Saint Louis, MO
clubs:
·AT&T Southwest
| said by voiplover :The one with the best coffee shop! Great answer  |
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DrTCP
Yours truly
Premium,ExMod 1999-04
join:1999-11-09
Round Rock, TX
| reply to voiplover
said by voiplover :How do you think that we called into the PD and Fire Departments before we had 911? Any dispatch center that existed before the implement of 911 has the same dial in #'s that they had before. It was then. Now the reality is much different. Now police departments in some places are not staffed to take calls outside of usual office hours. The PSAP may patch the officer on duty directly. Sure some places have the old systems running (luckily) but a lot has changed since then. |
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lmjh7065
Premium
join:2001-04-04
Cincinnati, OH
·QuantumVoice
| reply to voiplover
I think the sticker idea is good - we can even make them ourselves (those of us who have VoIP and think it a good idea).
There is a database of every 10 digit emergency number for every area in the country. When 911 was first introduced, it seemed it was not ingrained in everyone's mind to dial 911 in an emergency. So people would just dial the regular operator (something VoIP also does not even offer), like they always did before 911. The operator can't dial 911 so they had to have this database so they could dial the 7/10 digit emergency number. This number is still published today in front of my local phone book and has remained the same and is still in use today. I still use that number in place of 911 if it's not a life and death situation. Some areas don't even have 911 or E-911 on POTS currently as one DSL Reports poster has recently stated.
My mother currently has the lifeline device which is a waterproof wrist watch type device with a button that dials the dispatcher. If she can't talk or even pickup the phone they send help. I would not begin to think of trusting a VoIP line for this device, but if power is out, this may not work either.
There is no fail-safe method that I know of today to summon help, but it sure helps to have a backup. |
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tc1uscg
join:2005-03-09
Saint Clair Shores, MI
| reply to garys_2k
Re: VOIP and 911 solutions. Looking for suggestio
Costing more money? Whats up with that. We have been paying into E911, LKP, etc.. for years. You would think (except for Michigan who got busted for using E911 money for something else) that by now, they could offset a lot of the costs of fixing this problem. So, by creating another type of 911 network, it's only going to get bigger. Lets fix what we got now or the VoIP people will just need to bridge over to the LEC's which inturn will cost money, which in turn will be passed onto the customer, which inturn will make VoIP cost as much POTS. I see so many people going to VoIP and with all these caller ID probs and 911 problems.. One has to ask, so what is the purpose of even having VoIP if it can replace your POTs (and it's functions in full)? |
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markla
join:2002-08-21
Round Rock, TX
| reply to voiplover
Re: VOIP and 911 solutions. Looking for suggestions?
I believe we need to accept the fact that due to the PORTABILITY of VoIP (over Internet), it's use of E911 is never going to have 100% accurate location information.
Adding GPS electronics to the phone adapter is an excellent idea, and it is one that should introduce the cost into the equipment rather than the service ... but what about softphones? Are we going to ensure every laptop or other device, handheld, whatever using a softphone is also going to have GPS circuitry?
If you take your phone adapter to a hotel, the GPS will hopefully narrow down location to the hotel (provided it can get a lock while you are inside -- the GPS in my car can't get a lock inside of some parking garages). However, it will hardly narrow you down to a floor or a room. I recall hearing about legislation (in Chicago, I think?) that required multi-floor buildings to pass additional location information to emergency services when 911 was dialed. This includes floor and cubicle number if necessary. This is what Cisco's Emergency Responder is all about .. keeping track of employee's between phone moves so the correct information on an employee's current location is passed on to the emergency operator when 911 is dialed (an enhancement NOT available via POTS, I believe .. you must be behind some PBX).
I still like my idea (call me biased): 
Presently, 911 is obviously an OPTION for everyone. If you choose NOT to have a POTS line in your home, you don't get 911 (disregarding cell phones). Therefore, it's not mandated anywhere (that I am aware of) that every home must have 911. Since it's an OPTION now, LEAVE it an option. If you make the decision to get an alternate type of phone service that doesn't have 911 .. AND, you choose to fully discontinue your POTS line, then you have made the decision to take that risk. The fault is fully yours. In my case, I decided to keep a metered POTS line in place. With smarter phone adapters (ones with FXO ports and dialplans that can chose where the outbound call goes, such as Sipura's SPA-3000) it can simply be a matter of routing anyone who dials 911 out the FXO port to the PSTN via the POTS line they kept solely for that purpose.
MY only problem with this is paying $15 each month for a line that isn't used. The metered line is only $4.95 but taxes drive it up to almost $15. I say REGULATE POTS and enforce THEM (not the VoIP providers). Enforce them to either leave 911-only on all unused copper or enforce them to have a 911 only service for $2-$3 per month that is NOT heavily taxed since the line will receive NO incoming calls and will only be able to dial 911 outbound. They should LOVE the income that comes from having all of these $2 lines installed all over the country that never make any calls.
Oh jeez, I forget about power outages killing the VoIP phone adapter. Well, no one is requiring cordless phone manufacturers to ship a UPS with every base they sell (although many now do come with battery backup features). It seems THEY can get by fine with the warnings printed INSIDE the manual (not on the packaging) that no one reads (the warnings or the manual) that warns you cannot dial 911 from your cordless handset if power to your base is down.
Just make sure the VoIP providers don't advertise what they have as "911" to bewilder the untrained. Unless, of course, it really is 911. For this, I like VoicePulse's stance: »www.voicepulse.com/availability/E911.aspx
I have three kids under four. Yes, if anyone can figure out HOW to make it happen, I'd love to see true working E911 on my VoIP line. Until then, that's what the BAT PHONE near our bed is for.
WhyADuck, I like your electric meter idea, too .. but I think getting the infrastructure for that in place will take forever and still won't provide a solution for the multi-floor/multi-occupant locations.
POTS ALREADY HAS the infrastructure in place. If 911 is so damn important, someone needs to sue the LEC's collective ass and make THEM provide it for everyone.
++Mark |
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DrTCP
Yours truly
Premium,ExMod 1999-04
join:1999-11-09
Round Rock, TX
| said by markla :I say REGULATE POTS and enforce THEM (not the VoIP providers). Enforce them to either leave 911-only on all unused copper or enforce them to have a 911 only service for $2-$3 per month that is NOT heavily taxed since the line will receive NO incoming calls and will only be able to dial 911 outbound. They should LOVE the income that comes from having all of these $2 lines installed all over the country that never make any calls. The phone companies and the lobbying group will probably oppose this strongly because:
1) It costs more to maintain the wiring and phone switching equipments even if line is only used for 911.
2) They will be loosing revenue by not being able to assign the switching equipment port to another customer who would be paying |
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