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Murray3
join:2001-03-06
Texas
| Re: A What...? said by Asmodeus  :Listen, the ability to access the internet regardless of method is a LUXURY!!! period... Yup. I don't see how it could possibly be deemed a Utility.
I could survive without Broadband... but would not fair so good without water, electricity, etc. | |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech
| Re: A What...? How about in five to fifteen years, when your copper is gone, and a single fiber or coaxial line runs into your basement and fuels everything, including your phone, television, stove, and grandpa's iron lung?
Does basic data connectivity stay in the "luxury" category then? | |
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IamZed
Premium
join:2001-01-10
Dayton, OH
| Re: A What...? Exactly. Electricity was a luxury once. A phone was a luxury once. Running water was a luxury once. People who think fiber is a luxury can’t see past tomorrow, and shouldn’t be allowed to plan it.
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A thing worth doing is worth doing to excess | |
| | | Network Guy
join:2000-08-25
New York
 ·PHONE POWER
·Broadvox Direct
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: A What...? Once it becomes standard, as in the rural communities also run it, then I'd call that a utility. Current trend seems to be rollouts in the major metropolitan and surrounding areas only, and to me that's considered a convenience, not something to count or rely on. | |
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GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL
| Re: A What...? But isn't that exactly what happened with the aforementioned items: running water, electricity, phone service.
Metro areas were first served, and rurals second. That alone does not discount something being deemed a utility.
I am of the opinion that broadband is not yet at the level of utility, but it is well on it's way to becoming so. Evidenced partially by the fact that established "utility companies" such as TELCOs are major providers of service. Eventually the connectivity will just be one line, and THAT single connection will be a utility.
K.
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TheGlobalMind.com
Forget regret, or life is yours to miss - Rent | |
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Tomek
Premium
join:2002-01-30
Brooklyn, NY
·Packet8
| said by IamZed :Exactly. Electricity was a luxury once. A phone was a luxury once. Running water was a luxury once. People who think fiber is a luxury can’t see past tomorrow, and shouldn’t be allowed to plan it. Nicely said.
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Semper Fidelis | |
| | | jesseb_66
join:2002-12-06
Tucson, AZ
| said by IamZed :Exactly. Electricity was a luxury once. A phone was a luxury once. Running water was a luxury once. People who think fiber is a luxury can’t see past tomorrow, and shouldn't’t be allowed to plan it. I like that. | |
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neosolace
Stay In It
join:2003-08-25
Verbena, AL
| IMO... Although it isn't QUITE to the point where it should be a utility yet..Karl is right. This is no different than rural phone,electrification, and even gas service was in the earlier part of last century. Although I don't completely trust the idea of competing with muni operations, I do think that the government will HAVE to get involved (maybe not just in the ways everyone thinks) to get broadband to the masses. There's just no simple, easy way to do it. I think that if carefully planned out and overseen, a government (or otherly financed) operation could benefit everybody. | |
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wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace
join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
 ·Verizon FIOS
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
 ·RoadRunner Cable
·BroadVoice
| said by Karl Bode :How about in five to fifteen years, when your copper is gone, and a single fiber or coaxial line runs into your basement and fuels everything, including your phone, television, stove, and grandpa's iron lung? How exactly is fiber going to "fuel" my stove?? I do agree with your other examples however.
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I like dogs, guns, and cheeseburgers. Whats your malfunction? | |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02 | Re: A What...? I'd guess it's fairly sound to believe a lot of appliances will be connected to the internet to aid self or remote diagnostic repair, update firmware, and sell marketing companies information on how often you do X, or eat Y..... | |
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Sarah
Premium,ExMod 2002-05
join:2001-01-09
Cambridge, MA
clubs:
1 edit | Re: A What...? They have ovens in development (or maybe that you can buy now, I dunno) that you can program when to start baking, or even to refrigerate something until 4 PM and then heat it up in time for dinner, etc.
Doesn't seem like much of a stretch to be plugged in so you set it remotely from phone or office. "We'll be home in half an hour, let me call the oven and start the lasagna baking."
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The devil makes work for idle hands, but Stanford makes work for idle CPUs! | |
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Aggie Dan
Stop... Reverse That.
Premium
join:2001-01-30
Frisco, TX
clubs: | Re: A What...? I dunno. That sounds like a luxury to me. | |
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Sarah
Premium,ExMod 2002-05
join:2001-01-09
Cambridge, MA
clubs:
| Re: A What...? said by Aggie Dan :I dunno. That sounds like a luxury to me. I just meant to answer the poster who said "how will fiber fuel my stove".
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The devil makes work for idle hands, but Stanford makes work for idle CPUs! | |
| | | | Beeper
Part Of The Problem
join:2001-09-27
Dayton, OH
clubs:
| said by Karl Bode :I'd guess it's fairly sound to believe a lot of appliances will be connected to the internet to aid self or remote diagnostic repair, update firmware, and sell marketing companies information on how often you do X, or eat Y..... I believe point # 4. Everything else is rubbish.
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Guaranteed Fear and Loathing. Abandon all hope. Prepare for the Weirdness. Get familiar with Cannibalism. | |
| | | | B
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-28
| Pithy comments from some of you, and I'm somewhat inclined to agree, but isn't it a little early to judge?
I mean, why pick broadband as the next must-have utility (to be granted special consideration by state and legislative planning), rather than wireless networks? Or cell phones? Or satellite? Or iPods or that frickin' Segway?
All kinds of stuff is important to our current way of life, and all kinds of stuff MAY have enormous importance to the majority going forward. But who's to say which ones are the proto-utilities?
Heck, few things are more pervasive than supermarkets and cell phones, and I don't see much real regulation or city ordinances targeted at either.
-- B
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In a realm outside causality and function | |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech
| Re: A What...? Not sure which comments are pithy.
Simply putting forth the seemingly ignored future-fact that home data, in very short order, will be one-pipe that connects to all manner of electronics, connecting everything in the home to a global network, and largely a necessity for anyone not hiding out on the fringe's of society. (Which I grant is always a choice - and maybe in 10 years a wise one)
I don't know if that observation justifies subsidization or anything else, simply throwing the concept on the table. | |
| | | | | | B
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-28
| Re: A What...? said by Karl Bode :Simply putting forth the seemingly ignored future-fact that home data, in very short order, will be one-pipe that connects to all manner of electronics, connecting everything in the home to a global network, and largely a necessity for anyone not hiding out on the fringe's of society. (Which I grant is always a choice - and maybe in 10 years a wise one) I don't know if that observation justifies subsidization or anything else, simply throwing the concept on the table. And I'm just saying that the "observation" isn't necessarily a sure thing. Who's to say that in fact we're headed for that particular future?
I don't disagree with the likelihood, but I'm naive enough to realize that we can be completely wrong -- what if wired broadband is an also-ran in the history books, and some form of wireless connectivity becomes paramount? What if, us geeky enthusiasts aside, the global net really DOESN'T become as all-important and all-consuming as we think it will be? The future is inevitable, but particular technologies and social developments aren't.
-- B
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In a realm outside causality and function | |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02 | Re: A What...? Nothing is certain, of course. But I'd put the likelyhood of pervasive high-bandwidth home networks up there statistically with Paris Hilton not getting a Nobel peace prize. | |
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captokita
Premium
join:2005-02-22
Calabash, NC
| --I'd guess it's fairly sound to believe a lot of appliances will be connected to the internet to aid self or remote diagnostic repair, update firmware, and sell marketing companies information on how often you do X, or eat Y...--
LOL! Can you see it? You go to cook dinner, and a pop up window comes up on the stove.. "Before you cook your dinner, please click here for info to enlarge your......sausage." Dinner sausage! Get your minds out of the gutter people!  Or someone hacked into it and overcooks your food.
But it's a matter of time before all appliances are "internet ready"
To get this back on topic, right now, the internet, broasband or dialup, is a luxury. One day, that will change. | |
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N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by Karl Bode :How about in five to fifteen years, when your copper is gone, and a single fiber or coaxial line runs into your basement and fuels everything, including your phone, television, stove, and grandpa's iron lung? Does basic data connectivity stay in the "luxury" category then? When fiber replaces copper everywhere (many years from now), one of 2 things will happen. Either local telcos (or whoever is offering the fiber) will decide it's cheaper to offer their POTS service over an all fiber network, and offer customers voice service only over a fiber connection, or the cost to offer broadband along that existing fiber will be so inexpensive, it will become an add on to whatever replaces the traditional POTS system as we know it.
Some above use the argument that electricity was once a luxury item. While this is true, it is a poor argument. In the time electricity was a luxury, most people heated their homes with coal or wood, and could survive in the cold without electricity. Anyone here have a gas or oil burning heater that doesn't need electricity to fire and circulate heat through your house? I would think not.
A utility is a service you could essentially, die without. In January and February in the northern states, one could freeze to death without heat. One could not live without water, hence water, sewer, electricity are utilities.
The reasoning behind Telephone service being a utility is it is the quickest way to summons aid in an emergency. EG, medical emergency, fire, etc. I think this is specious reasoning at best, considering so many people are ditching their POTS lines. If POTS is such a utility, why are so many people ditching it? Nevertheless, I accept the argument, not necessarily agreeing with it.
Sorry, I don't see where broadband fits into the utility category. I lived my entire life without broadband until 1999 when I was one fo the first people in my neighborhood to get a cable modem. We didn't have cable TV until 1995.
As far as your stove, and grandpa's iron lung, I as of yet to see either one of these devices powered by a broadband connection....
The day you convince me someone would die or freeze without broadband is the day you'll convince me it's a utility. | |
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Sarah
Premium,ExMod 2002-05
join:2001-01-09
Cambridge, MA
clubs:
| Re: A What...? said by N3OGH :A utility is a service you could essentially, die without. That's just a definition you made up, that doesn't make it true. 
Dictionary definition of "public utility" from www.m-w.com:
"a business organization (as an electric company) performing a public service and subject to special governmental regulation"
That's all. No one said it has to be a life-saving technology.
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The devil makes work for idle hands, but Stanford makes work for idle CPUs! | |
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lyls
@tele.dk
| drowning in sewage ? btw im sure theres people who have lived without a telephone for a very long time and i think the internet already has become quite popular and useful and it'll only become more essential to our lives..... of course not in a "get it or die" kind of way | |
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Boogeyman
Drive it like you stole it
Premium
join:2002-12-17
Huntsville, AL
| Before we had cable tv, we used our DSL to stream weather info and storm warnings. Of course, before we had DSL we used dial up for that, but that was back in 99 before most weather sites became so bloated with excess crap. Anyway, the point is that without that, we would never have known there was a hurricane coming untill it hit.
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"There's no such thing as a soul. It's just something they made up to scare kids, like the Boogeyman or Michael Jackson." - Bart Simpson | |
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Captain Obvious
| Per your example of people dropping their POTS lines for VoIP - wouldn't that begin to make broadband a utility? After all, if you depend wholly on your VoIP phone for connectivity, then you could potentially die if the connection goes down and you have a life-threatening emergency.
Personally, I don't feel that POTS *OR* broadband should be considered utilities in the same way that gas, electric and water are. The latter provide requirements for living (i.e., the ability to stay warm in the winter and to cook food) The former are simply means to communicate more easily.
However, following the reasoning of POTS being a useful means of getting help in an emergency, it really isn't that far of a leap to make broadband a utility as well. | |
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N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: A What...? said by Captain Obvious:
Per your example of people dropping their POTS lines for VoIP - wouldn't that begin to make broadband a utility? I didn't mention VoIP anywhere in my post. I was referring to people ditching POTS lines in favor of wireless phones.
In addition, as I mentioned earlier, I believe it's specious reasoning to consider a POTS line a utility for the reasons mentioned, I simply accept that it's an argument made to classify such service as necessary. | |
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Aggie Dan
Stop... Reverse That.
Premium
join:2001-01-30
Frisco, TX
clubs:
| said by Karl Bode :How about in five to fifteen years, when your copper is gone, and a single fiber or coaxial line runs into your basement and fuels everything, including your phone, television, stove, and grandpa's iron lung? Does basic data connectivity stay in the "luxury" category then? You have to be provided your dial-tone. Plain and simple. They can't just rip up your copper and not replace it. The mandate that there be rural phone service will guarantee that you have phone service. If you have phone service you will have some connectivity to the internet. Admittedly, the speed may stink. But, you'll have connectivity.
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Note : The statements made by myself are my own and not the opinions of my employer or of my coworkers. 15.81 GHz Crunching Power | The Ryan Foundation for MPS Children | |
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Sarah
Premium,ExMod 2002-05
join:2001-01-09
Cambridge, MA
clubs:
| said by Murray3 :said by Asmodeus :Listen, the ability to access the internet regardless of method is a LUXURY!!! period... Yup. I don't see how it could possibly be deemed a Utility. I could survive without Broadband... but would not fair so good without water, electricity, etc. How exactly does electricity keep you alive?
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The devil makes work for idle hands, but Stanford makes work for idle CPUs! | |
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neosolace
Stay In It
join:2003-08-25
Verbena, AL | Re: A What...? Granted...it doesn't "keep you alive", but I don't think I could really "live" without those services.
For instance....that lovely sewer system runnin' beneath the street! | |
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Sarah
Premium,ExMod 2002-05
join:2001-01-09
Cambridge, MA
clubs:
1 edit | Re: A What...? said by neosolace :Granted...it doesn't "keep you alive", but I don't think I could really "live" without those services. But why does that even affect whether it should be a utility? The definition of a utility is not "something I need/want really bad." 
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The devil makes work for idle hands, but Stanford makes work for idle CPUs! | |
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N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: A What...? Could you tell me where you found a heating system for your home that doesn't use electricity in some way? If it's working for you up in MA, it's got to be able to handle the cold in PA.
No heat in winter = freeze to death.
Electricity is a utility....
PS, a wood stove isn't going to cut it. I have one, and while it's nice, the whole Northeast doesn't have enough trees to keep us all warm all winter..... | |
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Sarah
Premium,ExMod 2002-05
join:2001-01-09
Cambridge, MA
clubs:
| Re: A What...? I have natural gas heating, and I'm sure you could make a gas heater easily enough w/o electricity if you really had to. My point is not that I don't need or want it, it's that just because it's a utility doesn't mean it is necessary to life.
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The devil makes work for idle hands, but Stanford makes work for idle CPUs! | |
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N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs | Re: A What...? You might get that heater to fire off, but how are you going to move the heat through your house?
Hot air needs an electric blower, baseboard heat needs a circulation pump, both are run by electricity.... | |
| | | | | | | | | | Talis
join:2001-06-21
Houston, TX
| How many centuries did man survive without lovely sewer systems runnin beneath the street? All these utilities people keep bringing up improve the QUALITY of life, but do not sustain it. There are still place in the United States that do not have sewers, electricity or water systems. They still manage to live. So stop classifying broadband as non-essential compared to the other utilities. None of them are essential.
Broadband access has as much potential to improve the quality of life, for individuals as well as whole communities, as any other public utility. | |
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icp1
Premium
join:2000-10-13
Saint Louis, MO
clubs:
·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: A What...? said by Talis :How many centuries did man survive without lovely sewer systems runnin beneath the street? All these utilities people keep bringing up improve the QUALITY of life, but do not sustain it. There are still place in the United States that do not have sewers, electricity or water systems. They still manage to live. So stop classifying broadband as non-essential compared to the other utilities. None of them are essential. Broadband access has as much potential to improve the quality of life, for individuals as well as whole communities, as any other public utility. You don't think electricity, clean water, and sewage are essential to life? Scary. I understand your point about some places don't have them and survive, but try shutting off just 1 of them in a place like new york city. You would have a huge upswing in death and/or disease from any one of them being gone.
Now back to the point -- broadband is not currently a utility in my opinion, but I believe the internet itself it almost to that point, if it isn't already. | |
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Fatal Vector
@aol.com
| Re: A What...?
Packed together as we are, if we didn't have sewers and electricity there would be epidemics in short order, just like there were before sewers and running water. These things became a reality because of such epidemics at a time when there was much less population density than there is today. Besides that, Life is damn hard and inconvenient without electricity which you will notice during the next extended blackout.
On top of that, if it weren't for electricity, you wouldn't have all the frozen food you take so much for granted. This country would be totally different. Yes, people managed to survive without electricity and sewers and running water, but their lives were shorter and MUCH harder. They were TOUGH back then because they had to be. The majority of the US population today would not survive in such conditions because the old knowledge and ways have not been passed on and, to be honest, we are va fat and lazy society in many ways.
What will eventually happen is that fiber will replace copper. It's inevitable. It may take a decade or two, but it WILL happen. As far as computerized appliances connected to the web. They have those allready and Windows XP has a mechanism to use them that is never used and is normally turned off (if you're smart) because it is a security hole. I dont see consumers flocking to the store to buy a refrigerator with web access either. On the face of it, such a idea is silly.
The more likely evolution is the household computer that controls appliances (as well as lights, heat, communications, etc) by a preset program and allows web access for them-if NEEDED-for service, etc. Otherwise, such access is simply another security nightmare waiting to be exploited.
The web is not the all encompassing nirvana it is made out to be. Like allways, the corporations and government see nothing more in it than a revenue stream. Just look how Comcast is pushing 4 Mb service: Streaming audio/video PREMIUM (read: extra cost) services. If you want more proof, just look at all the "ads by GOOOOOGLE on this very website and the websites it links you to in "news" stories.
In the end, money talks, and you walk, pilgrim, just like allways. | |
| | | | | Talis
join:2001-06-21
Houston, TX
| said by icp1 :You don't think electricity, clean water, and sewage are essential to life? Don't put words in my mouth. CLEAN water is not what I commented on, but water systems. There is a difference.
But to answer your question, none of these systems is essential to sustaining life. The fact that cities provide these systems is what allows them to grow to the enormous sizes that they do. Once a city has grown to that size, which could only have been possible with these utility systems in place, then of course shutting them down would drastically impact the people living there. I'm not sure what any of that has to do with my point, however. | |
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Captain Obvious
| Re: A What...? I believe the point is that for most of the US, these services are no longer optional, and thus, a hard requirement.
Yes, strictly speaking you are correct - you can live in the woods with little more than a sharp stick and some animal skins, but the vast majority of Americans couldn't - they would just die if stuck in the woods without.
So, whether you like it or not, gas, electric, coal or fuel oil in parts, water, and sewer are critical services, without which a lot of people would die. That makes them utilities. | |
| | | | | | | Talis
join:2001-06-21
Houston, TX
| Re: A What...? Obviously I'm not stating my point very well.
The critical, "can't live without them," status of these utilities did not exist at some point in the not so distant past. They were just as novel as broadband is today. Over time they have developed into critical services. Broadband access has as much potential to improve the quality of life, for individuals as well as whole communities, as any other public utility. To think otherwise is just short-sighted. | |
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Murray3
join:2001-03-06
Texas
| said by Sarah :said by Murray3 :said by Asmodeus :Listen, the ability to access the internet regardless of method is a LUXURY!!! period... Yup. I don't see how it could possibly be deemed a Utility. I could survive without Broadband... but would not fair so good without water, electricity, etc. How exactly does electricity keep you alive? Well, I wasn't meaning to infer that I couldn't live without electricity. I was meaning to infer that it would be easy to go without broadband, but would not be so easy without electricity (would certainly make my life more uncomfortable without electricity but I wouldn't notice a difference without broadband).
And yes, others who have mentioned that electricity and phones used to be a luxury (incidentally, I still think a phone is a luxury item), are correct when they said that and that now those things are generally deemed 'utilities'.
But I thought we were discussing now and not 15 years from now. I say this without the intention of splitting hairs. When fiber does fuel my home and add many more benefits than it does right now, then I would probably change my opinion. All the while broadband's primary residential use is to allow Web, VoIP and TV services, I stick to my guns by thinking of it as a luxury rather than a necessary utility.
I guess I'm thinking of it in terms of necessity.
There's probably no right or wrong with this, as there seems to be quite a difference of opinion between several of us. Ah well, makes for lively discussion.  | |
| john262
join:2003-09-26
Elko, NV | Agreed. I had dialup for several years before getting DSL and at the time I got along with it just fine. It's not that I would want to go back to it now, but it definitely is just a luxury. | |
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