denzel
join:2005-01-02
Lincoln, NE
2 edits | reply to SLW1
Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli
[Mod Note: Referral offer removed - Against »Forum Rules - Please read ]
I have been with Lingo for a long time and I am a heavy user too. I spend alot of minutes on talking to my family in Europe. Lingo has an unlimited deal for $19.95 + first month free. They will send you an ATA adapter if you do not have one. The unlimited deal includes US + Canada + 17 west european countries, which is the biggest reason why I went with them.
Good Luck! |
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jc100
join:2002-04-10
| reply to SLW1
Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse
Well I'd suggest doing what I did, when I had the same exact problem with highspeed. I have roadrunner, and they started sending out letters, advertising they will charge per GB on service. I said woah, your website says unlimited, and thats what I want. I flooded the Better Business Bureau with loads of phone calls, and boy o boy I talked to Road Runner HQ liek 3 or 4 times... Funny the lady and I got to know each other to the point, of redundancy. She must have dreaded calling me, as she knew my line each and every time. I also had emailed Attorney General... Long behold, I notice either by my or multiple complaines from many customers, there website states Always On and not unlimited internet access. So long story short... Call Attorney General, Flood Better Business Bureau with calls, and keep on it. Pain in the ass yes, but it will at least offer you some remedy, if not just to get it documented. Legal action isnt very viable to spend 25,000 or 30,000 fighting a large company less you can get a class action going... and that could take a while to track down lots of customers. Truth be told, lots of people say "sue" but the fact of the matter is, it isnt that easy, very costly, and takes years. So do my way, and at worst I guess move on.. But flood those 2 agencies. They do work. |
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jc100
join:2002-04-10 | reply to SLW1
Ignore the grammatical errors, it is 230 AM.. sorry.. complaines = complaints... and had emailed the Attorney General.. OK now i feel better. |
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Medic63
join:2004-02-15
Butler, PA
| reply to SLW1
Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli
Reading this thread about the B.S. P8 is throwing at SLW makes me glad I have Vonage, where incoming calls do not count against my limit (I have the 500 min./month plan).:D
There's just two adults using the phone here, and we don't use the phone that much.
Seriously though, follow through on calling the AG. If enough people do this the VoIP companies will sit up and pay attention. |
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RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
 ·AT&T Midwest
| reply to SLW1
Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse
Packet8 has a problem here: "reasonable personal residential use" is not defined in their TOS. You could easily parade your teenagers before a judge and prove that these days "personal residential use" with them around is almost a continuous connection. 
Seriously though, if they charge you (or induce you to spend) even $1 more because of this they've wandered into a legal tar pit. Be sure they know it. Take screenshots of all of their TOS pages and advertising.
Send a complaint to Lisa Madigan now. Make sure Packet8 knows you did it. And don't forget the FCC, too. Even though they are not regulated like a traditional phone company they are subject to FTC and FCC rules regarding advertising and deceptive practices like bait and switch. »www.fcc.gov/cgb/complaints.html#general
It can't hurt to point out to them that their policies are likely to bring unwanted and unnecessary regulation to the VoIP realm.
Don't let them get away with crap you wouldn't let Verizon or anyone else get away with. Good luck!. |
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ecb12
join:2004-03-11
Columbia, MO
| reply to SLW1
Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli
while i agree with the whole unlimited thing being crap, there has to be a point where p8 can say that's too much, it should be in their TOS though. I personally think that 10k minutes for 20 bucks is crazy, almost as crazy as the stupid 2k plan they want to switch you to.
One question though if it's all teenagers then where is all the LD coming from shouldn't the bf/gf be in roughly the same area and don't most pots lines include all the locals for like 15 bucks a month, so could it be beneficial to get your pots for the kids and only use the p8 for Ld. Might be harder to do but seems like it could work. |
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Anaxamander
join:2003-06-04
Rockville Centre, NY
| reply to SLW1
Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse
Their T&C is open to debate - it is REASONABLE for Billy Bob, his 14 children, 3 marital equivalents & amorous Grandpa Cletus to ETERNALLY be on the phone. Similarly, UNLIMITED can be modified to be unlimited domestic, or unlimited local calls, but cannot be modified into "3000 limited UNLIMITED minutes". Before you signed up, 8x8 didn't inquire as to the size of your family before they graciously took your credit card number. Perhaps they should have - to estimate REASONABLE usage, so as to better inform you of contractual obligations.
And while "What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away" does have legal merit, REASONABLE is open to interpretation. Their legal department also screwed up here, the clause they are invoking to change your plan:
12. COMMERCIAL USE. End User agrees that the use of the Service and/or Equipment for activ
*ities other than reasonable personal residential use will obligate End User to pay 8x8's h
*igher rates for business services for all periods of such use, including past periods, in
*which End User used the Service for commercial or governmental purposes.
(*) WARNING 1 long line(s) split
because who determines REASONABLE here? Apparently, this clause lets you essentially argue, "I determine that my personal residential use WAS ENTIRELY reasonable for a family of 6 with cousins, and aunts and uncle flung far and wide. I DECLINE any such obligation to move my account from residential to any other service due to my ALLOWED reasonable assertions." Similarly, you can also argue (thanks to the unspecified nature of this clause), "I determine that a limit of 3000 minutes for my family per month is UNreasonable. I decline any offer to move my service to another plan."
See, their small print can still giveth as well. Granted, their T&C allows them to change the T&C at any time...
Then ramp it up. cc the tv station, BBB, your legislators... Grandpa Cletus... |
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b1gdr3
I Blame Your Mother
join:2001-07-28
Pittsburgh, PA | reply to SLW1
Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli
Did staying within the terms of service occur to you??
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I wasn't born with enough middle fingers. |
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WhyADuck
Premium
join:2003-03-05
| reply to BillRoland
said by BillRoland  :Not to put a damper on the legal aspect (especially since I agree with WhyADuck about the definition of unlimited), but any legal action is probably going to take much longer than you want it to and may or may not be favorable in outcome. I know that legal action has been threatened at every VoIP company on this forum at one point or another but I don't recall any victories as of yet. Just food for thought. I don't disagree that the legal process would probably drag out long enough that he'd want to switch providers in the interim. But the beauty of complaining to a state's Attorney General is that if they think the complaint has merit, they will often pursue it and they essentially have all the time in the world and the resources of the state (not to mention that there are competent attorneys working in their office, probably along with a bunch of staff and interns that can do all the legal research and paperwork). That's why companies rarely fight the AG's office (especially if they really are in the wrong), because they know they can't outspend the state and don't have access to anywhere near the state's legal resources.
If you are so disgusted with a company that you feel the need to switch anyway, and if your only other option is to do nothing, why not file the complaint? In most cases it will cost you nothing, and you may in the end wind up getting a cash settlement of some kind. For example, if the user in question is charged a termination fee for canceling the service, there is a very good chance he could get that refunded, along with any signup fees paid and any out-of-pocket expenses incurred in pursuing the claim (this is very much dependent on individual state law, so don't take any of this as a given, but at very least there might be the satisfaction of seeing the company served with a cease-and-desist order so they can't continue to use false advertising).
If it were me, I would personally send my complaint to the AG's office with a copy to the Federal Trade Commission (the FTC complaint can be filed through a web-based complaint form). These agencies do look at individual complaints (especially at the state level) but they also sometimes look at the number of complaints received. So if they start getting a lot of complaints about a particular VoIP company engaging in false advertising and consumer fraud, they would be more likely to go for a really big fine against the company (based on multiple incidents), which would (I would hope) discourage that company and similar companies from pulling the same crap in the future. |
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WhyADuck
Premium
join:2003-03-05
| reply to b1gdr3
said by b1gdr3 :Did staying within the terms of service occur to you?? Did the idea that companies should actually deliver what they advertise ever occur to you???? |
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MxxCon
join:1999-11-19
Brooklyn, NY
clubs:  
| reply to SLW1
in my past experience of emailing different companies, i always get faster/better response if my emails are also CC: president@, ceo@, coo@, cfo@, [name of other bosses]@
even if some messages will bounce, keep including those address so that drones will be more responsive and get as many bigwigs into the loop as you can.
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[Sig removed by Administrator: Signature can not exceed 20GB] |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
 ·Comcast
| reply to pcmeet
said by pcmeet :The best way to resolve this problem is to have a 2nd Packet8 line for another $20 a month then you can have up to 10000 minutes a month without worry about Packet8 switching you to business plans, ask them to send you the BPA-410 adapter it is built in 2 lines. That's silly. You would just be rewarding Packet8's alleged Bait & Switch. There's a reason why high speed Internet providers don't advertise "unlimited" service anymore. If Packet8 is advertising "unlimited" service and not delivering unlimited service, then they are the ones who are committing a crime.
I totally agree with poster who provided the link to the Illinois AG's office. I would also file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission, given that Packet8 is based in California and the alleged crime occurred in Illinois. This is clearly a case in which Federal jurisdiction would apply.
--
Hey Fast Eddie... you're next! |
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cbrain
join:2000-05-21
Silver Spring, MD | reply to SLW1
Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse
Do any of the ILEC's have similar conditions to their unlimited offerings? Any other VoIP companies? |
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MxxCon
join:1999-11-19
Brooklyn, NY
clubs:
1 edit | Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli
said by cbrain :Do any of the ILEC's have similar conditions to their unlimited offerings? Any other VoIP companies? i'm sure any provider that has more expensive 'pay per minute' plans will do this:(
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[Sig removed by Administrator: Signature can not exceed 20GB] |
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chaud
Serious Business
join:2004-07-09
Anderson, SC | reply to SLW1
3000 min is crazy. With 3 people in the house, and the two kids don't call anyone, we used 1500 min so far this month. How can they put a 3000 min limit, especially if a family has 3 teens. Oh well... |
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laserjobs
Premium
join:2004-05-02
Las Vegas, NV
·Cox HSI
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :said by pcmeet :The best way to resolve this problem is to have a 2nd Packet8 line for another $20 a month then you can have up to 10000 minutes a month without worry about Packet8 switching you to business plans, ask them to send you the BPA-410 adapter it is built in 2 lines. That's silly. You would just be rewarding Packet8's alleged Bait & Switch. There's a reason why high speed Internet providers don't advertise "unlimited" service anymore. If Packet8 is advertising "unlimited" service and not delivering unlimited service, then they are the ones who are committing a crime. I totally agree with poster who provided the link to the Illinois AG's office. I would also file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission, given that Packet8 is based in California and the alleged crime occurred in Illinois. This is clearly a case in which Federal jurisdiction would apply. I have to agree that buying a second line from Racket 8 to get more minutes on a "unlimited" plan is clearly a ludicrous idea. If you advertise unlimited then provide unlimited.
This is what my Lingo account resets to every month:
In plan minutes remaining: 45000
And unless the months get longer this is a true Unlimited Plan |
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lmjh7065
Premium
join:2001-04-04
Cincinnati, OH
 ·QuantumVoice
| reply to SLW1
Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse
What happened to the so called 5,000 minute limit P8 tried to institute in the past but backed off the idea?
No one mentioned this yet, but I don't believe they count the actual minutes used but round up instead. They count 1 second as far as I know as 1 minute.
Since light users don't get refunds, high users should not be penalized for "unlimited" service. It's the average that counts.
If P8 wants to save money why don't they (un)forward calls to my number which was cancelled at the end of last October? They cancelled my web access immediately so that I didn't have a chance to do this, even tho I paid in advance for service thru the end of the month.
I no longer think that Packet8 deserves any customers, apparently the way they treat some. |
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acadiel
Keep trying - don't give up
Premium
join:2002-06-22
Bloomington, IL | While you're at it, file a BBB complaint online at www.bbb.org - I'm sure that they would have a field day with Packet8 doing "deceptive advertising" as well. |
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trysunrocket
@optonline.net
| reply to joako
Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli
Try sunrocket... they have a "bottom line" pricing structure for unlimited calling that is much less than others.. even if you were to say, use more then 10,000 minutes a month (is that possible?!?!) its still the same price, seemingly- but read the fine-print of any voip offer and make sure the terms are something you can live with.. even if you did get surcharged (very unlikely due to the way they advertise the service as -bottom-line-pricing-) that they would surcharge from a much lower rate: ie about $17 a month!!! when bought in a "year plan" of $199 per year.
www.sunrocket.com |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| reply to cbrain
Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse
said by cbrain :Do any of the ILEC's have similar conditions to their unlimited offerings? Any other VoIP companies? You can't legally claim something is unlimited and then limit it. That's why many broadband ISPs stopped advertising "unlimited" service awhile ago. If Packet8 is indeed saying their "unlimited" service is limited, then they need to change the way they advertise their service.
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Hey Fast Eddie... you're next! |
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