  hailinfantry Bizarro Quinn Premium join:2004-01-18 Brooklyn, NY
| reply to Midak Re: Progress???
said by Midak :That's it, don't allow your community to advance into the 21st Century. How about the private companies bring the town into the 21st century? They have Cox and Bellsouth already...which brings them both Cable and DSL...sounds like a lot of the rest of the United States and Canada. How are they behind exactly?
Further, I think it's dangerous when a municipal utility gets involved in an entertainment service. It doesn't foster fair competition, because their pricing can and probably will be predatory since operating costs can be fortified with muni bonds and tax dollars before becoming self-sustaining. In the meantime, the cableco's and telco's cannot effectively compete. Eventually, a monopoly that is government-run can be created and then there will be NO competition. |
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  rit56
join:2000-12-01 New York, NY
| there are monopolies of private companies now that were created by the FCC in the name of privation and it is all bullshit. the only areas they wire are those with large populations while ignoring parts of states and cities they don't see a large enough profit margin. they block cities from covering outlying communities by the same tired old argument that it will mean higher taxes. they raise prices at will... I think it's time the government got involved. |
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  ppcpunk
join:2001-02-11 Davenport, IA
| reply to hailinfantry What you fail to understand is that setting up a municipal network is not the same as getting into content business/entertainment business.
What you also don't understand is that when such thing is set up you set and environment that is healthy for competition from multiple content providers. |
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  hailinfantry Bizarro Quinn Premium join:2004-01-18 Brooklyn, NY
| said by ppcpunk :What you fail to understand is that setting up a municipal network is not the same as getting into content business/entertainment business. What you also don't understand is that when such thing is set up you set and environment that is healthy for competition from multiple content providers. Not if you consistently undercut and undermine the competition.
Ever study economics? Heard of capitalism? |
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  pcscdma Chocobo Chocobo Random Battle Premium join:2004-01-14 Winterset, IA clubs:
| reply to hailinfantry said by hailinfantry :How about the private companies bring the town into the 21st century? They aren't. That's the whole point of this.
said by hailinfantry :It doesn't foster fair competition, because their pricing can and probably will be predatory since operating costs can be fortified with muni bonds and tax dollars before becoming self-sustaining. Stop right there. Did I hear those nasty words 'tax dollars'? Bad.
There are corporate bonds too ya know. -- /sbin/shutdown -h now |
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  hailinfantry Bizarro Quinn Premium join:2004-01-18 Brooklyn, NY
| said by pcscdma : said by hailinfantry :How about the private companies bring the town into the 21st century? They aren't. That's the whole point of this. How is this town behind other towns with similar demographics? They have access to at least 3Mbps DSL (in areas that have the loop requirement met) and Cable. The coverage wouldn't be much better in a muni system as they'd have to make the investment to hang and bury the fiber...not to mention light it all. |
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  ppcpunk
join:2001-02-11 Davenport, IA
| reply to hailinfantry I don't see a need for competition between various companies trying to provide a wire to my house for services.
Why not one wire that can deliver all the services? Why not do it once and let all the companies play on an equal field?
Yes if taking out the fact a private company will make less money because they don't get to use the public rights of way to setup their own private networks to be able to charge us whatever they want and only upgrade services when they absolutely have to well then yeah that's "undermining and undercutting the competition."
But then I wonder why it is we have municipal airports? You think those are a bad idea too? |
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  hailinfantry Bizarro Quinn Premium join:2004-01-18 Brooklyn, NY
| said by ppcpunk :I don't see a need for competition between various companies trying to provide a wire to my house for services. Why not one wire that can deliver all the services? Why not do it once and let all the companies play on an equal field? Yes if taking out the fact a private company will make less money because they don't get to use the public rights of way to setup their own private networks to be able to charge us whatever they want and only upgrade services when they absolutely have to well then yeah that's "undermining and undercutting the competition." But then I wonder why it is we have municipal airports? You think those are a bad idea too? Explain how a municipal airport is the same as residential web access, then we can talk.
Further, no company wants to share "one wire." Is that what you think a muni is? The muni's fiber is for the MUNI ALONE. It isn't throwing them up so it can share them with the incumbents.
Are you not understanding what we're talking about? |
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  ppcpunk
join:2001-02-11 Davenport, IA
| You don't understand the analogy. You say show you how web access is like an airport. I submit to you that it is not and never claimed that it was, which is in fact the whole point.
The municipally ran network is used by private companies such as whoever your local bell is or companies like earthlink, speakeasy, AOL, so on and so forth.
When you say web access you need a company to get you onto the web - just having a network all over your town won't get you anywhere except all over town - not on the world wide web. Just like having an airport for a city won't get you anywhere if you don't have private companies giving you airplane access to fly anywhere.
And you are just dead wrong about companies not wanting to share one wire - It happens right now with dial up access and dsl access and land line service and even going to be more the case when IPTV goes into service over the ILEC networks.
Also it happens RIGHT now in places where they have municipal fiber places like grant county »www.gcpud.org/zipp/providers.htm where they have all these companies you say don't want to share one wire, providing many different high speed providers, two cable tv providers, three telephone providers, and two other providers for what looks to be some kind of security service. |
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  hailinfantry Bizarro Quinn Premium join:2004-01-18 Brooklyn, NY
| Those companies in the link you provided are locals and really don't compare to the incumbents such as Comcast, TWC, Charter et al. And do you honestly think any of those will want to share infrastructure with Verizon and the other ILEC's?
The municipal networks are being built to COMPETE WITH THE INCUMBANTS, not give them a happy free network to play around with. Did someone beat you silly today or something? |
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  ppcpunk
join:2001-02-11 Davenport, IA
| Do I honestly think any what company will want to share what infrastructure with Verizon?
Do I think any company will want to share fiber to your house with verizon - a company like say AOL? Uhhh yes? Why not? You can choose to not make any money or you can choose to make money... I don't understand what you are saying.
Municipal networks are not built to compete with - they are built and they happen to compete with - if those companies like TWC/Comcast/whoever want to get on the network and provide service I highly doubt the muni would decline to have more competition.
The network is there to provide a network for private companies to provider services - not to make tons of money on over priced cable tv. |
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  hailinfantry Bizarro Quinn Premium join:2004-01-18 Brooklyn, NY
| said by ppcpunk :Do I honestly think any what company will want to share what infrastructure with Verizon? Do I think any company will want to share fiber to your house with verizon - a company like say AOL? Uhhh yes? Why not? You can choose to not make any money or you can choose to make money... I don't understand what you are saying. Municipal networks are not built to compete with - they are built and they happen to compete with - if those companies like TWC/Comcast/whoever want to get on the network and provide service I highly doubt the muni would decline to have more competition. The network is there to provide a network for private companies to provider services - not to make tons of money on over priced cable tv. This is coming from you, not them though. AOL and Comcast are two VERY different entities with two VERY different products. There are plenty of ISP's that love to share bandwidth. The big boys (who 95% of the time will be the incumbants) want their own networks, and they want them to themselves. The muni thus provides the infrastructure and the service (as it has in 75%+ of all buildouts thus far) and provides a pricing structure that is predatory to the incumbants. |
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  ppcpunk
join:2001-02-11 Davenport, IA
| That is coming from me - But I think when faced with making no money or some money they will choose some money over none.
Now regarding their networks - yes they do want their own networks but guess what - you don't get everything you want in life just like you don't get to use public rights of way if the public doesn't want you to.
The only reason they get to have their private networks is because we let them - it is not a right it is a privilege.
Yes it is predatory to their pricing structure... But then again their pricing structure could be said to be predatory on the people they serve and get to enjoy for the most part because of quasi-monopolies and yes I know over builders can - when the franchise agreements are up - come in and build another network but we all know that isn't going to happen but we do know where it does happen cable rates are lower and they still make profits hand over fist. So I don't think anyone cares about anything being "predatory to their pricing structure." |
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  hailinfantry Bizarro Quinn Premium join:2004-01-18 Brooklyn, NY
| said by ppcpunk :That is coming from me - But I think when faced with making no money or some money they will choose some money over none. Now regarding their networks - yes they do want their own networks but guess what - you don't get everything you want in life just like you don't get to use public rights of way if the public doesn't want you to. The only reason they get to have their private networks is because we let them - it is not a right it is a privilege. Yes it is predatory to their pricing structure... But then again their pricing structure could be said to be predatory on the people they serve and get to enjoy for the most part because of quasi-monopolies and yes I know over builders can - when the franchise agreements are up - come in and build another network but we all know that isn't going to happen but we do know where it does happen cable rates are lower and they still make profits hand over fist. So I don't think anyone cares about anything being "predatory to their pricing structure." What you have said makes no sense economically or otherwise. Everyone viewing this thread is now dumber having seen it. Take some high school business courses, and once again we'll talk.
Predatory pricing is not against the consumer in the beginning...but it stifles competition in the long run by eliminating, well, the competition unfairly. It's illegal when corporations do it, it should be illegal when muni's do it. The muni's sole purpose is to be almost predatory to the incumbants' bottom lines.
And who ever said that the incumbants' franchises and rights-of-way were in any danger of being revoked?  |
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  ppcpunk
join:2001-02-11 Davenport, IA
| Congratulations you have just lost the argument because you had to resort to insulting me and not making any logical response - I also find it funny you tell me to take high school business courses - Is that all the training you have had - is this all the education I will need to understand this then? Wow - if I could only take a class then I could be as smart as you!
Cable tv content providers would still be around no one is eliminating them they could just as easy provide content over the muni network. How is it they will be eliminated? They will be competeing against other content providers... you don't make much sense. |
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 fiberone6
join:2005-01-07 Lafayette, LA | reply to ppcpunk ok, lets let halliburton drill all the oil. Would that be good for business or is several companies better. |
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