schmattie
join:2003-07-20
Florence, KY
| reply to TamaraB
Re: Take head out of Butt please!
Not so! The Internet was designed and built by the military as a nuclear-hardened research and communications tool, not as a public entertainment medium.
you also said this a couple of posts before....?
The Internet is a PUBLIC space, unlike your home which is a PRIVATE space.
So which is it public or private?
it can't be both.
As far as that "military" reference that was arpnet which spawned the internet.
Yes the protocols were designed for military use but puff corn was designed originally as a packing material and now is a tasty treat. I could give a rats a== if it was designed in 1979 for military use, reality is that now it is used as a medium for entertainment.
Seriously quit being such a whiner about microsoft. They aren't the only ones that made money off this "new" medium you call the internet. Put aside your hate....
Everything isn't M$'s fault. Ford wouldn't recall F150's because the engine bottoms out if you forget to change the oil every 3000 miles. Nor would they recall if putting sugar in the tank ruined the fuel system.
Reality is this people are malicious, we are a bunch of bast==ds. Whatever you do someone will always find a way to ruin it. People should be punished harshly who do things like this. We don't get mad @ the company for not holding are hands and keeping us safe from the bad guys.
Also their have been revisions in the ip protocol btw I think we are ipv6 now.....that crap about not being designed for security is pretty much mute at this point.
Nothing is ever completely secure not even your nix box.
Just be thankful very few people use nix otherwise you would be experiencing the same problems.
BTW I have plenty of user to root exploits on nix that still work.
I love open source too but it has a way to go. |
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TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
Premium
join:2000-11-08
Brooklyn NYC
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to schmattie
said by schmattie  : The problem I have is this, the internet is public and it was made for everyone not just computer savvy people. Not so! The Internet was designed and built by the military as a nuclear-hardened research and communications tool, not as a public entertainment medium.
The protocols which underlie the Internet were NOT designed for easy and secure use by the masses, rather, they were designed for use by savvy and technical people to do technical research. The "public" nature of the Internet was legislated, not designed.
Microsoft, for some reason (money?), "opened" it up to the public, but took no notice or precautions of it's inherent lack of security, (It's openness is by design) or of it's technical nature.
Most of the problems we see today with respect to security, spam, viruses, trojans, etc... is a result of this mis-guided and sloppy approach.
The Internet IS UNIX. The Internet was totally modeled after the UNIX OS, right from it's early UUCP beginnings. It was NEVER designed to be what Microsoft erroneously calls "easy" and "safe"; even though windows is designed to make it (falsely) look so. It's this difference between reality, and Microsoft-Advertised perception, and engineering which is at the root of the issue.
Under the current, and traditional structure of the Internet, it is not possible for the average "mom and pop" to "just click here, where do you want to go today" easily, safely and securely! That is an advertising lie pushed only my Microsoft! They are at fault, no one else!
Bob
--
Motor Vessel - Tamara B.
43' Long-Range Trawler
Cape Elizebeth ME.
See her Here. |
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schmattie
join:2003-07-20
Florence, KY
| reply to TamaraB
You must have worked in Tech support Bob.....
You have the same bitterness that half of my co-workers have.
I'm assuming from your repeated (M$) that's Microsoft btw...
bashing that you probably run some from of nix. Good for you, you know how to compile drivers and basically play with your os without ruining the computer. I would also assume that you are probably think of yourself as some kind of hacker. (not the malicious kind mind you). The problem I have is this, the internet is public and it was made for everyone not just computer savvy people. I can't blame Microsoft for the security holes it has because there is no way an os is ever 100% secure, period. Bash MS all you want but the truth is MS is a billion times more compatible with any hardware than nix will ever be, not to mention how many man hours people put in to "finding" exploits for Windows versus nix. Microsoft gets blasted the most because 85%-90% of home users are using it. Point is if nix was as wide spread you would see the same thing. Just imagine all the root exploits! |
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TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
Premium
join:2000-11-08
Brooklyn NYC
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to FromThe Right
said by FromThe Right:
You're kidding right. Nope!
said by FromThe Right:
Please take your head out of your butt, and put the blame where it belongs... On the people making money; The most prolific people "making money" on people's ignorance and stupidity is Microsoft! They make more "MONEY" than any of the alternatives, and certainly more than the criminals they are in league with, and support!
said by FromThe Right:
writing programs whose sole purpose is to install themselves without a users knowledge... and designed to be VERY difficult to remove. Quit blaming the sheep, and start shooting the wolves.
The Wolves as you call them are are the manufactures of the OS which freely allows this sort of abuse!
If Brinks' trucks were as easy to break into as M$ OS's, Brinks would cease to be a viable company! What I want to know is why do people like you, continually make excuses for M$, and refuse to hold them accountable for their massive security failures? Is it because you can't bear to admit you made a mistake, or a bad choice? Or is it because you can't bear to actually learn something, and force yourself out of the cartoon-world of point-and-click M$ defective computers?
There ARE viable secure alternatives, why don't you take advantage of them? Is it because it requires more IQ than you possess?
Bob
--
Motor Vessel - Tamara B.
43' Long-Range Trawler
Cape Elizebeth ME.
See her Here. |
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TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
Premium
join:2000-11-08
Brooklyn NYC
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to TheWickerMan
Re: Crap is crap
said by TheWickerMan :So, if you unknowingly install a defective lock on your house, and I know how to exploit its vulnerability, then it's OK for me to walk in, right? Nope! But is says a whole lot about your intelligence, and your ability to choose a good lock! Ignorance, laysiness, and carelessness. in my opinion, is NO EXCUSE for bad choices!
Bob
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Motor Vessel - Tamara B.
43' Long-Range Trawler
Cape Elizebeth ME.
See her Here. |
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TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
Premium
join:2000-11-08
Brooklyn NYC
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to FromThe Right
Re: Take head out of Butt please!
said by FromThe Right:
You're kidding right. Please take your head out of your butt, and put the blame where it belongs... On the people making money; writing programs whose sole purpose is to install themselves without a users knowledge... and designed to be VERY difficult to remove. Quit blaming the sheep, and start shooting the wolves.
The BIGGEST BLAME should be aimed at Microsoft for distributing defective software. Why don't we see more blame directed at the source of the disease instead of at the symptoms of the disease; the pimples and warts the disease causes?
Bob
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Motor Vessel - Tamara B.
43' Long-Range Trawler
Cape Elizebeth ME.
See her Here. |
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TheWickerMan
join:2002-04-09
Enola, PA
1 edit | reply to TamaraB
Re: Crap is crap
said by TamaraB : No, this is different! This is a break-in not a public invite. No one picks any locks in a drive-by infection, or in a virus infection, those are "invitations" not "break-ins"; no passwords have been hacked, the site or email only makes use of the available PUBLIC services which you, your browser, or mail client allows and advertises. No one picks your lock if you share your files via netbios to the world, or if you automatically execute an install program... you have invited them in they did not break in! Perhaps your angst is mis-directed? It's not the scammers, spammers, phishers, or hackers who are the problem (these folks have been around for thousands of years); perhaps it's the fault of the defective toys you have chosen to use? Perhaps you use them without reading or heading the warnings? Whatever the case, it's no-body's fault but your own 99% of the time! What I see and read here is way too much anger and frustration directed towards those who use publicly available services offered up freely by users; and NO anger directed towards those manufacturers who build-in these "features" in the first place. The manufacturer, who sells a product, which invites and allows un-attended installations is the one who should bear the brunt of the anger and blame. I have NEVER had a trojan, worm, virus, spyware, or any form of maleware on ANY of my computers, and I have been on the net since 1985! OK, whatever.
So, if you unknowingly install a defective lock on your house, and I know how to exploit its vulnerability, then it's OK for me to walk in, right? |
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FromThe Right
@verio.net
| reply to TamaraB
Take head out of Butt please!
You're kidding right. Please take your head out of your butt, and put the blame where it belongs... On the people making money; writing programs whose sole purpose is to install themselves without a users knowledge... and designed to be VERY difficult to remove. Quit blaming the sheep, and start shooting the wolves. |
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TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
Premium
join:2000-11-08
Brooklyn NYC
·Verizon Online DSL
1 edit | reply to jsouth
Re: Crap is crap
said by jsouth :What if you are trying out a new program that says is spyware free but really isn't? Not everyone will come right out and say. Google is your friend! There really are FEW excuses!!
Bob |
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TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
Premium
join:2000-11-08
Brooklyn NYC
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to TheWickerMan
said by TheWickerMan :By your logic, if your house is on a public street, I have every right to walk right in... Keep the door open and hang a sign saying "free food inside" and YES anyone has a right to walk in and take you up on the offer. This is what you do when you advertise a service on the public network, and allow anyone to access it. Use a browser, or other program, which invites and allows open software installs, and you are saying fill-er-up, I want it!
said by TheWickerMan :And even if I have to pick your locks to get in, it's your fault because you didn't secure it well enough. No, this is different! This is a break-in not a public invite. No one picks any locks in a drive-by infection, or in a virus infection, those are "invitations" not "break-ins"; no passwords have been hacked, the site or email only makes use of the available PUBLIC services which you, your browser, or mail client allows and advertises.
No one picks your lock if you share your files via netbios to the world, or if you automatically execute an install program... you have invited them in they did not break in!
Perhaps your angst is mis-directed? It's not the scammers, spammers, phishers, or hackers who are the problem (these folks have been around for thousands of years); perhaps it's the fault of the defective toys you have chosen to use? Perhaps you use them without reading or heading the warnings? Whatever the case, it's no-body's fault but your own 99% of the time!
What I see and read here is way too much anger and frustration directed towards those who use publicly available services offered up freely by users; and NO anger directed towards those manufacturers who build-in these "features" in the first place. The manufacturer, who sells a product, which invites and allows un-attended installations is the one who should bear the brunt of the anger and blame.
I have NEVER had a trojan, worm, virus, spyware, or any form of maleware on ANY of my computers, and I have been on the net since 1985!
Bob
--
Motor Vessel - Tamara B.
43' Long-Range Trawler
Cape Elizebeth ME.
See her Here. |
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TheWickerMan
join:2002-04-09
Enola, PA
| reply to TamaraB
said by TamaraB : The Internet is NOT your private home, it's a VERY public and open area. The internet is not my private home, but my computer is. Quit confusing the two.
By your logic, if your house is on a public street, I have every right to walk right in if I want. And even if I have to pick your locks to get in, it's your fault because you didn't secure it well enough. |
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TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
Premium
join:2000-11-08
Brooklyn NYC
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to TheWickerMan
said by TheWickerMan : And I suppose blaming the victim, as you're doing, is not childish? If I leave me front door unlocked..... If you publicly advertise a computer service on let's say ports 445 and 137 or 139 for instance, it means you are inviting their use by the public. The Internet is a PUBLIC space, unlike your home which is a PRIVATE space.
If you run an anonymous FTP server, you have no basis to complain if someone uses it. If you run an MTA on port 25, you can't complain about it's public use; it is YOUR responsibility and no one Else's, to advertise only the services YOU want used publicly.
If you surf to a website with a program which will vacuum up any and all malware, it is YOU who have invited it in by doing so! If you run an open SMTP server, you have invited spammers to use it, if you run an open ANYTHING, it will be used because you have invited it's use. The Internet is NOT your private home, it's a VERY public and open area.
I am not blaming the victims for anything, there are no victims here, only public users of a public space; each one directly responsible for their own actions.
Bob
--
Motor Vessel - Tamara B.
43' Long-Range Trawler
Cape Elizebeth ME.
See her Here. |
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TheWickerMan
join:2002-04-09
Enola, PA
| reply to TamaraB
said by TamaraB : said by Vvian Kalyss :Then explain drive-by-downloads that require NO ACTION on your part. The use or non-use of faulty software which allows "drive-by-downloads" is the computer owner's choice. Use un-patched and defective programs, use those free screen-savers, visit those porn sites, and you consent to whatever they happen to do to you. To scream foul when something unpleasant happens as a result of your own actions (or lack of actions) is childish. Bob And I suppose blaming the victim, as you're doing, is not childish?
If I leave me front door unlocked, that does not make it OK for someone to come in and rob me. The cops might tell me I'm stupid for leaving it unlocked, but they're still going to arrest the guy who robbed me, if they catch him. But by your logic, someone who leaves his door unlocked "consented" to being robbed.
I suppose that a woman who wears revealing attire is "consenting" to be raped. |
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jsouth
Jsouth
join:2000-12-12
Wichita, KS
| reply to TamaraB
What if you are trying out a new program that says is spyware free but really isn't? Not everyone will come right out and say. "Hey! We come bundled with spyware!" Also not every scanner will pick it up either. Especially if is new or a newer variant. So even if you take steps to prevent it from installing you still can get hit from time to time. I have cleaned machines that run Firefox, anti-trojan software etc. etc. etc. but still get hit. |
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Unregistered user
@clients.speedfactory
| reply to TamaraB
If I forget to lock my door, am I responsible if a burglar comes in and steals everything? It's true that I did a stupid thing, but to say that I bear full responsibility is absurd.
Now, if the burglar takes up residence in my house, invites some of his friends, and uses it as a base of operations to commit more crimes, and someone informs me that it's happening, then it's my responsibility to evict him, just as it's my responsibility to clean my system of viruses when I'm notified it's infected.
I do think that Internet users need to educate themselves to the dangers out there. That's my biggest complaint: people who don't even take the time to gain the most basic understanding of how the Internet works and its inherent risks. |
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TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
Premium
join:2000-11-08
Brooklyn NYC
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to exocet_cm
said by exocet_cm :I take the action to prevent it yes, and have not had a problem for a long time now. Right! And those who don't should wear the dunce cap, face the corner, and stop complaining.
said by exocet_cm :The problem comes when spyware is hidden in what looks to be a legitimate program, whatever it may be, IE: aim, etc... I don't think any spyware comes with any of those programs! Spyware/Adware come only with "free" eye-candy software. The nuisance they cause is the price of "free". It's hard to scam an honest man or woman!
Bob
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Motor Vessel - Tamara B.
43' Long-Range Trawler
Cape Elizebeth ME.
See her Here. |
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exocet_cm
In memory of dadkins
Premium
join:2003-03-23
New Orleans, LA
clubs:  
 ·Cox HSI
·Suddenlink
 ·Cingular Wireless
·AT&T Southeast
·Charter Pipeline
| reply to TamaraB
I take the action to prevent it yes, and have not had a problem for a long time now.
The problem comes when spyware is hidden in what looks to be a legitimate program, whatever it may be, IE: aim, etc... you get the picture.
--
I know that God is real, but I don't think He created this vast universe just for us.
Seti@Home & Seti@Boinc |
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TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
Premium
join:2000-11-08
Brooklyn NYC
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to Vvian Kalyss
said by Vvian Kalyss :Then explain drive-by-downloads that require NO ACTION on your part. The use or non-use of faulty software which allows "drive-by-downloads" is the computer owner's choice. Use un-patched and defective programs, use those free screen-savers, visit those porn sites, and you consent to whatever they happen to do to you.
To scream foul when something unpleasant happens as a result of your own actions (or lack of actions) is childish.
Bob
--
Motor Vessel - Tamara B.
43' Long-Range Trawler
Cape Elizebeth ME.
See her Here. |
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TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
Premium
join:2000-11-08
Brooklyn NYC
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to TheWickerMan
said by TheWickerMan :I think you missed the part about "without my consent." One either gives explicit consent by installing the crap, or implicit consent by allow it to happen. In other words, if you don't take steps to prevent crap from being installed, you are consenting to it's installation.
In the final analysis, you, and only you, are responsible for what gets installed on your computer.
Bob
--
Motor Vessel - Tamara B.
43' Long-Range Trawler
Cape Elizebeth ME.
See her Here. |
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Vvian Kalyss
join:2003-10-14
Stage 5.0
clubs:
| reply to fretlessp
Then explain drive-by-downloads that require NO ACTION on your part.
I shouldn't be FORCED to install numerous safeguards, change my browsing habits, what browser to use, what not to click, what not to download, yadda yadda -- in short, tailor my computing time around THEM -- just because some ethically-challenged salescum decides that he'll push a "free demo" of his "product" onto whatever PCs that aren't "protected".
Of course, you have a point too -- clueless users should STOP DOWNLOADING "free" software that is bundled with crap, dammit. There are plenty of no-catches-included freeware and open-source software that doesn't come bundled with shit. Software from the internet is not like getting junk from TV shopping -- you CAN get some things for FREE that don't need to be ad-supported (because explaining the difference between honest adware and spyware is much too difficult -- another reason why honest vendors should WANT to distance themselves from spyware and keep the 'adware' tag clean).
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Mikami Vvian, resident Girlfriend of Steel, care of the Tokyo-3 Middle Daughters Club |
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