Googled
Yay, I have FIOS
join:2001-08-13
Orchard Park, NY
 ·VoicePulse
1 edit | It's still DDOS
Just because they don't completely overwhelm the server doesn't mean it's not a distributed attack.
I think Lycos is going to make quite a few enemies that have quite a bit of money to invest in blackhat counterattacks.
Edit: Don't get me wrong I don't like spammers, but this is most likely doomed to backfire. |
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bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| said by Googled  :Just because they don't completely overwhelm the server doesn't mean it's not a distributed attack. Actually, for it to be a DDoS, there has to be some level of denial of service...
From what I've read, there is no attempt to deny service access to anyone and in another posting I saw elsewhere, they attempt to minimize how much they slow a site down...
It seems that all they are really trying to do is increase the bandwidth costs for these spammers...
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Trakker
Danger
Premium
join:2003-01-12
ß | Ummm what planet do you live on?
DDOS doesn't actually have to work to be considered a DDOS.
As well the words WIRE TAMPER come to mind.
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bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| said by Trakker :Ummm what planet do you live on? Th planet called earth where people who actually know what they are talking about have facts to hack it up... Apparently not the same planet you are on.
DDOS doesn't actually have to work to be considered a DDOS. As well the words WIRE TAMPER come to mind. Let's see... If you actually read their site and some of the documentation, the system is designed not to create a DDoS condition.
As for wire tampering... You really need to look up the definition of what wire tampering actually is before you start tossing terms out.
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Googled
Yay, I have FIOS
join:2001-08-13
Orchard Park, NY
·VoicePulse
| reply to bmn
Effects of the campaign |
said by bmn :From what I've read, there is no attempt to deny service access to anyone and in another posting I saw elsewhere, they attempt to minimize how much they slow a site down... You might want to try reading their website. Lycos is measuring their success based on how much website response time is increased, they also are reporting traffic generated. |
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bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| said by Googled : You might want to try reading their website. Lycos is measuring their success based on how much website response time is increased, they also are reporting traffic generated. Actually I did, several weeks ago... 
AT that time they were only talking about bandwidth being used, thereby increasing the costs to spammers. At that time, there was no mention of them attempting to slow the sites down.
Either way, so long at as the site is still accessible, there really is no problem.
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Pony99CA
join:2004-09-05
Hollister, CA
| said by bmn :AT that time they were only talking about bandwidth being used, thereby increasing the costs to spammers. At that time, there was no mention of them attempting to slow the sites down. Either way, so long at as the site is still accessible, there really is no problem. Really? So if one company decides to slow down a competitor's site, hoping people will get sick of waiting for a response and go to their site, that's cool with you, eh?
Even if you say this only applies to spammer sites, it's a DDOS regardless of your protestations. Even sites undergoing a DDOS can be accessible to some users, so where do you draw the line between a DDOS and simply slowing a site down?
I don't personally have a problem with this program, as spammers deserve any pain they get, but don't kid yourself that this isn't a DDOS. |
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bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
1 edit | said by Pony99CA : So if one company decides to slow down a competitor's site, hoping people will get sick of waiting for a response and go to their site, that's cool with you, eh? Nope its not cool isn't since its not even remotely really the same thing... In the case you are talking about using a technique to block a legitimate business who is acting within the law.
This case is about dealing with people who break laws and regulations and employ tactics that are at best, questionable in their legal status, to make money. This is a same group of people who have launched REAL DDoS attacks on RBLs and anti-spam sites, causing them to drop off the internet. This is a group of people who actually put a majority of the cost on people who are fighting and receiving spam by causing us to expend time and energy blocking their spew or deleting it from our inboxes...
Even if you say this only applies to spammer sites, it's a DDOS regardless of your protestations. Even sites undergoing a DDOS can be accessible to some users, so where do you draw the line between a DDOS and simply slowing a site down? Unfortunately there is no hard and fast number to determine the point at which a DDoS is a DDoS, but as long as no one is being prevented from accessing the site (denied service), its technically not a DDoS.
»searchsecurity.techtarget.com/sD···,00.html
"The flood of incoming messages to the target system essentially forces it to shut down, thereby denying service to the system to legitimate users."
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dalesplace
join:2000-09-14
Cleveland, OH
1 edit | Hmmm ... sounds like you would also have to support RIAA and their goofy pet senator's bid to do the same to P2P users. After all, the P2P user D/L'ing a copyrighted work is breaking the law. Therefore, slowing down/blocking their computer is a substitution instance of your argument.
As much as I like the idea of making the spammer's like miserable, I think this method is inappropriate. Personally, I think ANY time someone intentionally take's another's resources (computer time, disk or bandwidth) against the owner wishes they've stepped over the line. |
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bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| said by dalesplace :Hmmm ... sounds like you would also have to support RIAA and their goofy pet senator's bid to do the same to P2P users. After all, the P2P user D/L'ing a copyrighted work is breaking the law. Therefore, slowing down/blocking their computer is a substitution instance of your argument. The problem here is that the RIAA is not law enforcement... They have no authority, legally, to act as enforcers of copyright law. That right is specifically allocated to the government...
As well, the problem is that the RIAA does not differentiate between pirates and future customers... I can understand if they took out people who specifically pirate, but they problem is that they also want to eliminate users who download and then buy if the music is good (like myself).
As much as I like the idea of making the spammer's like miserable, I think this method is inappropriate. Personally, I think ANY time someone intentionally take's another's resources (computer time, disk or bandwidth) against the owner wishes they've stepped over the line.
You do, of course, recognize the parallel between this and what spammers are doing every time they send out SPAM, right ? As a server administrator and as a person who does IT work, the truth is that WE foot the bill for them because they send out mail we don't want, but are forced to deal with. And spam filters do cost money and time to setup and maintain.
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digits
@telia.com
| reply to Googled
For all you "It's still DDoS" posters...
First, DDoS stands for Distributed Denial of Service.
It's a way to attack a server (and "hopefully" take it down) by for instance sending billions of malformed packets (Buffer Overflow).
Note the imperative word above, Denial, and since this service doesn't Deny (take their servers down) this can't be a DDoS attack - even though the ethics about this can be questioned, you still don't Deny any of their services.
Perhaps a DHoS would be a better acronym to use, Distributed Hampering of Service... 
And most of you posts should do your homework, both you pro and con types...
»staff.washington.edu/dittrich/misc/ddos/
Oh, and if you still are reading, DDoS isn't really a name for a specific attack, it's a type of attack.
You have Buffer Overflow, SYN, Smurf, TeadDrop, Viruses and even snipping off an ISP's opto cable is considered DoS. |
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ShadowGeek
@bellsouth.net
| reply to dalesplace
>Personally, I think ANY time someone intentionally take's another's resources (computer time, disk or bandwidth) against the owner wishes they've stepped over the line.
You've just scored a point against your own argument - this is EXACTLY what spam does to my computer. |
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FightBack
@adelphia.net
|  reply to Googled
That's the idea -- but technically it's NOT DDOS.
It is not prosecutable.
Consult your Internet savvy attorney like we did and you'll see. It cannot be legally prosecuted as a DDOS because the user's computer cannot possibly produce sufficient requests to "deny service". Only thousands of computers can do that. Besides, the innocent computers are simply replying to the request in the SPAM.
Point #2: the prosecution would have to identify the perpetrator. Since no single perp can effect the DDOS, they would need to subpena all of the IPs and their owners responsible for the DOS -- in such case no attorney in his right mind would EVER take such a case to court.
You lose. Done deal. End of story.
Let's hope it catches on.
However this morning the site seems to be down.
So it must have ruffled someone's feathers! NOW who's the criminal?
See:
"Filters that Fight Back"
»www.60-Seconds.com/articles/163.html |
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moejama
@162.33.x.x
| reply to bmn
The real issue is who cares if it's DDOS. You all are hyprocrits to complain about this being an illegal DDOS attack when at the same time most of your are probanly downloading or uploading copyrighted material as we speak.
Obviously it is a denial of service attack no matter how you attempt to skew the definition of denial. In some form network resources are being taken away and therefore denied from the spam servers normal use.
I think it will have no major effect on slowing spam but rather just annoy the server admins who keep these spam machines up. People all want revenge against the spammers for the last decade of junk email and the overall slowing of the internet which may result from the billions of spam emails sent out ever day or ever hour for that matter.
How are you gonna launch a DDOS attack against P2P networks that are spread out into millions of clients and most of them on dynamic IPs. You're not. Ones with central servers are weakest anyhow and for p2p to keep up the way it is they all have to more to completely decentralized service.
I don't see the big deal. If i want to donate some of my bandwidth to hurting the performance of spam servers then I should be able to do that.. provided that they are spam servers and sending spam is illegal in my country at least. I wouldn't care if this was a complete DDOS attack in fact I would like it better if it were. How about a app that does the same but allows the user to opt to do full DDOS attack.
This why its not Lycos's fault its the users. Just like the p2p arguement.
As long as spam is illegal and most everyone hates it I think DDOS them is fair. Justice and legality are two entirely different things. I might be on the wrong side of legality but it's perfectly just to get these guys back. Laws are meant to be dynamically changed not to dictate our morals or thoughts on subjects.
You can bet if the Bush Administration put a DOS program together for hitting terrorst sites wrapped in USA flag colors and told you to run it to save your country for terrorists.. people would do it and not question a thing. In the big picture of right and wrong this issue is completely insignificant. |
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EoverMC2
@insightBB.com | reply to ShadowGeek
Cudows SHADOW GEEK
Good POINT BVD |
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sobriquetnet
@com.au
| >>Personally, I think ANY time someone intentionally take's
>>another's resources (computer time, disk or bandwidth)
>>against the owner wishes they've stepped over the line.
>You've just scored a point against your own argument - this
>is EXACTLY what spam does to my computer.
You're missing the point......... "ANY time" someone takes another's resources. It doesn't matter if they did it to you first.... it's still going too far.
If someone murdered your sister/brother/partner/dog, would it then be ok for you to murder theirs? |
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Talon88
The One
join:2003-08-13
Toronto
 ·Bell Sympatico
2 edits | :::
Ths answer is yes if the law cannot kick the
person to the jail. He can do it & I can do
it as well....! 
:::
said by sobriquetnet:
>>
If someone murdered your sister/brother/partner/dog, would it then be ok for you to murder theirs?
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BoredofSpam
@209.161.x.x | reply to sobriquetnet
We're not talking about murder here. We're talking about Internet abuse. Is it ok for you to have to waste time in a huge company to find our which email is good and which are useless?
Don't mix apples and carrots... |
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jayinric
@kaplan.com
| reply to moejama
Re: It's still DDOS
moejama said "You can bet if the Bush Administration put a DOS program together for hitting terrorst sites wrapped in USA flag colors and told you to run it to save your country for terrorists.. people would do it and not question a thing. In the big picture of right and wrong this issue is completely insignificant."
If we could find the servers that the terrorist were using, I'd rather just drop and EMP in the area. |
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