DaDogs
Semper Vigilantis
Premium
join:2004-02-28
Deltaville, VA
| reply to justin
Re: to be fair
said by justin  :google should understand their popularity rests on transparency. If there were told by the government to remove those images because of [insert stupid reason] then they should tell us that is what happened. Justin,
If they WERE told by the government to remove the images, it would have leaked and caused one hell of a stir. Indeed, it would have leaked just prior to the election as that would have been the worst possible time for it to leak.
Conspiracy theory is the province of the pseudo-intellectual, not the intellectual.
--
In the background stand the Clinton's bloody switchblade in hand, never to be blamed, but still in the running for '08. |
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justin
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2 edits | said by DaDogs : said by justin :google should understand their popularity rests on transparency. If there were told by the government to remove those images because of [insert stupid reason] then they should tell us that is what happened. Justin, If they WERE told by the government to remove the images, it would have leaked and caused one hell of a stir. Indeed, it would have leaked just prior to the election as that would have been the worst possible time for it to leak. Conspiracy theory is the province of the pseudo-intellectual, not the intellectual. Merely pointing out that google is missing controversial news imagery is not yet a conspiracy theory. We first need an official theory that works well, befor there can be a conspiracy theory. |
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Steve
I'm a PC, so shut up
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
| said by justin : We first need an official theory that works well, before there can be a conspiracy theory. said by justin , earlier:hidden censorship is rarely satisfying That's not a theory? |
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justin
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| said by Steve : said by justin : We first need an official theory that works well, before there can be a conspiracy theory. said by justin , earlier:hidden censorship is rarely satisfying That's not a theory? If it *is* hidden censorship then it isn't satisfying. I'm not decided until someone puts up a decent theory that tests out. What is yours. the "six month blind spot for all images" theory? You predict pages of abu ghraib torture by, what, xmas? |
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Steve
I'm a PC, so shut up
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
| said by justin : If it *is* hidden censorship then it isn't satisfying. I'm not decided until someone puts up a decent theory that tests out. What is yours. the "six month blind spot for all images" theory? You predict pages of abu ghraib torture by, what, xmas? I don't know anywhere near enough about Google's indexing methods (which seem to be really responsive even for middle-of-nowhere website like mine), but I find it nearly impossible to believe that they are actively censoring anything. If they had some kind of exclusive access to things, then maybe one could make the case that they could be effective, but "censoring" things that are available everywhere is utterly ineffective, not to mention lousy PR.
I'm more than happy to believe "it's a quirk of indexing" unless somebody has strong evidence that's much more than the nonsense posted here.
This week has been chock-full of tinfoil hat conspiracy theories, and even thinking out loud "they might be censoring" is just more of that silliness.
Steve
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Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site |
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justin
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| said by Steve : I find it nearly impossible to believe that they are actively censoring anything. You believe they don't do anything despite that their images index FAQ tells people who believe their images have been reproduced unfairly, to follow the instructions on this page ? »www.google.com/dmca.html |
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Steve
I'm a PC, so shut up
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
1 edit | Oh geez, confusing DCMA enforcement with censoring based on content?
Wow.
Damn, that Karl Rove is one powerful guy! |
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justin
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1 edit | I'm not confusing the two.
Google can (and probably does) remove something based on a DMCA request because the rights-holder does not wish it to be searchable or visible or whatever.
This is why the DMCA is criticised so often because it can, and has, been used to "chill" rather than just to remove copyright material (google has also bowed to pressure from foreign governments rather than fight court battles). |
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Steve
I'm a PC, so shut up
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
| Oh, there is no doubt that the DCMA is awful, for this and a long list of other reasons.
But you really think that somebody would go to the trouble of getting Google to do this, but nobody else? This is just much too hard to believe when compared with "fluke of indexing".
Hey, if it turns out that it's as you suggest, I'll eat my tool points, but I don't buy it.
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Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site |
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justin
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| yes i agree (that such would be across the board).
Ok well, i'll mark my diary and see what turns up there for december.
ps: i couldn't find any fallujah hanging contractor pictures either, and they are a year old. No problem on other search engines. So perhaps images.google.com is only good for stealing button gifs. |
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BonezX
Basement Dweller
Premium
join:2004-04-13
Canada | i blame your president :P |
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vrp
vrp
Premium
join:2002-12-05
terra
 ·AT&T Southeast
| reply to DaDogs
said by DaDogs :... Conspiracy theory is the province of the pseudo-intellectual, not the intellectual. .
... something like ... calling Iraq an imminent threat in the pre-war period ... falls under conspiracy theory ... isn't it? ... 
.
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War is delightful to those who have had no experience of it. - Desiderius Erasmus (1466 - 1536) |
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joebear29
join:2003-07-20
Alabaster, AL
| said by vrp : said by DaDogs :... Conspiracy theory is the province of the pseudo-intellectual, not the intellectual. . ... something like ... calling Iraq an imminent threat in the pre-war period ... falls under conspiracy theory ... isn't it? ... . Uh, no.
Unrelated, can you provide link where Iraq was called an immenent threat? |
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vrp
vrp
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·AT&T Southeast
| said by joebear29 : said by vrp : said by DaDogs :... Conspiracy theory is the province of the pseudo-intellectual, not the intellectual. . ... something like ... calling Iraq an imminent threat in the pre-war period ... falls under conspiracy theory ... isn't it? ... . Uh, no. Unrelated, can you provide link where Iraq was called an immenent threat? .
... I am giving you one link ... rest you are smart enough to dig for yourself ... 
link: »www.americanprogress.org/site/pp···&b=24970
.
--
War is delightful to those who have had no experience of it. - Desiderius Erasmus (1466 - 1536) |
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joebear29
join:2003-07-20
Alabaster, AL
| Oddly, I can't find any myself.
I checked the website you posted, but I didn't find any direct quote where Iraq was referred to as an "immenient threat". If I overlooked one, please clarify.
I did not a number of posts that were second hand references to imminent threats, such as:
quote:
"Absolutely."
• White House spokesman Ari Fleischer answering whether Iraq was an "imminent threat," 5/7/03
But without knowing the question (which is not linked) I cannot make a judgement on the answer.
Here is what Bush said:
quote:
Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late.
»www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases···-19.html |
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DaneJasper
Sonic.Net
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join:2001-08-20
Santa Rosa, CA
clubs:
| reply to justin
said by justin :I'm not confusing the two. Google can (and probably does) remove something based on a DMCA request because the rights-holder does not wish it to be searchable or visible or whatever. This is why the DMCA is criticised so often because it can, and has, been used to "chill" rather than just to remove copyright material (google has also bowed to pressure from foreign governments rather than fight court battles). Here's a point. The Abu Ghrabe prison photos were taken by US soldiers - people on the payroll of the US goverment. I'd guess that makes their photos "work product", and that the government could try to assert some copyright.
It's twisted logic (and evil) - and based upon Google policies, I'd guess it would end up on the »www.chillingeffects.org/ website if this were to happen.
-Dane |
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SRFireside
join:2001-01-19
Houston, TX
| reply to joebear29
Have no idea if the exact words "immanent threat" were used but Bush more than once told the American people that Saddam was a real and current threat to us and we needed to do something about it before it was too late. He stressed the urgency of dealing with Iraq pretty clearly from what I remember back then. |
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joebear29
join:2003-07-20
Alabaster, AL | I do not argue that he stressed the urgancy of dealing with Iraq, but my understanding was it was important to deal with Iraq before it became an imminent threat, as he said quite clearly in his State of the Union address. |
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VirtualLarry
Premium
join:2003-08-01
| reply to Steve
said by Steve :I don't know anywhere near enough about Google's indexing methods (which seem to be really responsive even for middle-of-nowhere website like mine), but I find it nearly impossible to believe that they are actively censoring anything. If they had some kind of exclusive access to things, then maybe one could make the case that they could be effective, but "censoring" things that are available everywhere is utterly ineffective, not to mention lousy PR. Remember, "If it's not in Google - it doesn't exist". I've heard that said in the past, in relevance to the importance of getting your site's content (generally-speaking here) indexed and available to the public via Google.
said by Steve :This week has been chock-full of tinfoil hat conspiracy theories, and even thinking out loud "they might be censoring" is just more of that silliness. Steve Why? They have censored content before. It's not just mere theory that it has already happened. Whether or not it is actually happening in this specific case I cannot say.
I also know that Google has been working on location-based contextual filtering of the returned search results from their index, which is how they are powering their beta "Google Local" service, and probably how they are achieving some of their goals for their Chinese censorship efforts.
They have also been accused of "blacking out" more results than necessary, in an attempt to reduce the effect of "googlebombing" and other such attempts to affect the pagerank of content improperly.
I also wonder if perhaps they might have overdone the filtering from "safesearch", while they try to revamp it, and as such the range of results may not be as available as it used to be. I think that there was a thread in the security forum about Google's image search feature that turned up quite a bit of pornographic imagery, even with "safesearch" turned on, using fairly innocuous search terms. I'm sure that they may have gotten complaints about that from conservative people, and are acting to fix them. It's unfortunate, IF that happens to be true, that it would in turn also effect the functioning of the democratic process in this country, for obvious reasons. |
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VirtualLarry
Premium
join:2003-08-01
| reply to justin
said by justin :You believe they don't do anything despite that their images index FAQ tells people who believe their images have been reproduced unfairly, to follow the instructions on this page ? » www.google.com/dmca.html At least FileMirrors tells you when they have blacklisted a query string/term because the results set might end up including something that might implicate the site in engaging in a DMCA violation. Google makes the results just ... vanish!
Indeed, the DMCA is very nearly the ultimate corporate censorship law, and the patriot act is the parallel for the gov't.  |
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