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Talis
join:2001-06-21
Houston, TX
| reply to tcp1
Re: Holy shit!
Why should users have to know the inner workings of the programs they use? Programmers write programs that leave things laying around in a cache somewhere, and its the users fault for not knowing this?
I've seen so many posts like this blaming every woe in the Internet on the 'stupid users.' How will computers and the Internet ever be ubiquitous, useful tools if programmers and industry professionals in general don't step up and start writing programs that are safe and secure?
You are right, this has always been in cache, and Google is just finding it. But the vast majority of general computer users don't know this, and they shouldn't have to know it. You can't require Joe User to have a degree in computer science in order to use a computer or a piece of software 'properly.' Thats totally unrealistic and would be antithetical to the growth of the computer industry.
Instead, the computer industry needs to understand who their audience is and learn how to create safe and secure products for them. Stop blaming my mother for your inability to keep her checkbook secure. | |
tcp1
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| said by Talis  :
Why should users have to know the inner workings of the programs they use? Programmers write programs that leave things laying around in a cache somewhere, and its the users fault for not knowing this?
It's not a question of them having to know EVERYTHING, but so many users have NO CLUE what's going on. "Leave things lying around in a cache?" The cache has to go somewhere. If there was no cache, the "dumb users" would be complaining that things have slowed down.
quote:
I've seen so many posts like this blaming every woe in the Internet on the 'stupid users.' How will computers and the Internet ever be ubiquitous, useful tools if programmers and industry professionals in general don't step up and start writing programs that are safe and secure?
Yes, and likewise, I imagine our highways will never be safe until cars drive themselves and prevent all accidents through mechanical engineering and sensors. The user has to take some responsibility. Thinking you can use a complex system without having even the slightest clue as to what's going on behind the scenes is insanely naive. I'm not saying users should have to be able to write an interface to a binary or flatfile database on their system and manually alter the cache. I think it's reasonable to expect them to understand that when you view a web page, it gets downloaded to your hard drive, and can be viewed by other people that use that computer if you don't take precautions. That's basic.
quote:
You are right, this has always been in cache, and Google is just finding it. But the vast majority of general computer users don't know this, and they shouldn't have to know it.
Why not? So how do you rectify this.. Outright prevent searching of the cache? Maybe some people want to search the cache. Using your logic, wouldn't offering up the option to search the internet cache (which Google does provide, and calls it "web history") just confuse people more?
Google lets you turn it off. So what's the big deal?
quote:
You can't require Joe User to have a degree in computer science in order to use a computer or a piece of software 'properly.' Thats totally unrealistic and would be antithetical to the growth of the computer industry.
A) Expecting a user to know that web pages get stored on their disk is hardly tantamount to having a CS degree.
B) You must not have been around computers very long. I imagine you'd be completely floored by how difficult it was to do something as simple as installing a modem ten short years ago. Hell, even five or six years ago. IRQs, TSRs, IO addresses, jumpers.. You don't know how good you have it. Things ARE easier today.
You can only dumb down a complex system so much until it just stops working properly.
quote:
Instead, the computer industry needs to understand who their audience is and learn how to create safe and secure products for them. Stop blaming my mother for your inability to keep her checkbook secure.
Horrible logic. Who is their audience? Strictly Wal Mart consumers who expect a computer to operate like a VCR? Sorry, if you're storing personal information you might want to know a thing or two about security. You talk about your mother keeping her checkbook secure.. Would you blame the bank for printing necessary account numbers on checks if a cashier copies down her account and routing number?
It's lovely to think the world and the internet is a simple, nice, fluffy place where your 85 year old grandmother can just hop on to AOL with no problems, and that we programmers can engineer out any pitfalls. Too bad it just ain't so, and I'm ticked off that so many armchair quarterbacks are telling engineers how to write software.
Remember, what's simple in your mind may not be so simple in practice. Think logically - HOW could Google have done this otherwise? The files are stored on your disk, by IE and Firefox, not Google, unencrypted. Google allows you to turn this feature off. Where did they fail, other than perhaps making the description of this feature blinking, rotating, and in bright red and yellow? | |
Talis
join:2001-06-21
Houston, TX
| said by tcp1 :
A) Expecting a user to know that web pages get stored on their disk is hardly tantamount to having a CS degree.
Thats a true statement. But expecting users to know anything about how a particular application works internally doesn't make sense if you want general joe-blow individuals to use your application.
said by tcp1 :
B) You must not have been around computers very long. I imagine you'd be completely floored by how difficult it was to do something as simple as installing a modem ten short years ago. Hell, even five or six years ago. IRQs, TSRs, IO addresses, jumpers.. You don't know how good you have it. Things ARE easier today.
I've been working with computers for 20+ years. Things are definitely easier today, no doubt about it. But developers still do not think in terms of safety and security - defensive development would be a good way to say it, with respect to the user.
said by tcp1 :
You can only dumb down a complex system so much until it just stops working properly.
I disagree. I'm not even suggesting you dumb down anything. I'm saying you make the programs smarter, the interactions between programs smarter, to account for the lack of knowledge of the users.
said by tcp1 :
Remember, what's simple in your mind may not be so simple in practice. Think logically - HOW could Google have done this otherwise? The files are stored on your disk, by IE and Firefox, not Google, unencrypted. Google allows you to turn this feature off. Where did they fail, other than perhaps making the description of this feature blinking, rotating, and in bright red and yellow?
This isn't Googles problem, and I don't believe I ever said it was. The problem is that the data is laying around in the cache to begin with. It should not be. It isn't that difficult to build protocols that describe sensitive data and protocols that define how applications should treat that data. But the industry as a whole has not cared to address those issues. Until they do, this will continue to be a problem forever, and it isn't the users problem. | |
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