Re: Are they even able to do that? in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r9441352 en Sun, 29 Nov 2009 02:04:07 EDT Sun, 29 Nov 2009 02:04:07 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9477261 anon : Jason;

Well argued. Thanks for taking the time to work thur it reasonably. I don't disagree with anything you've said.

-m-]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9477261 Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:27:34 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9474618 Jason Levine :
said by justanutter1:

Personally, Jason, when I say that I believe one thing and then demonstrate that I only believe it when it is convienent for me... I only prove I have prejudices.

Your disregard for RIAA (and their rights) while you support Microsoft in precisely the same circumstances, demonstrates that you are in fact prejudiced in favor of Microsoft. That won't come to many as a suprise but it is nice to see you demonstrate it so clearly.


I think the RIAA is making a big PR mistake because they are going to be seen as suing their customers. In addition, I think that they are using tactics to ensure settlements even if they have the wrong person. (I think the penalties are too high and out of proportion also, but that's the DCMA, not the RIAA directly.)

I do think downloading music is wrong and illegal. The little music I obtain is mostly from used CD shops with the occasional new CD. This way I can rip to high-quality, DRM-free MP3 for my own personal use. The online services look nice, but I've never been one to buy much music so my buying habits really haven't changed much through the years. (If anything, used CD shops have increased it slightly, but the RIAA wouldn't like that. ;-) )

In Microsoft's case, we're talking about their source code. In this respect I admit I might be biased, but not because it's MS. I write software that isn't open source. If the source code to my applications were stolen and circulated world-wide I would feel quite violated.

If the source code was written by me, it belongs to me and only I should say what happens to it. If I were to decide to make an application open source, that would be my choice. However, no one should decide that my application needs to be open source and then take steps to release the source code despite my wishes.

said by justanutter1:

RE: ...CODE STOLEN...

That is speculation based upon the smoking gun of a makefile from GPL which found its way into the Microsoft sources. A smoking gun does not a murder make, and neither does 17 lines of code which SCO refuses to produce in a similar situation.


If there's evidence of this, I'd be interested in seeing it, but this would be the first I've heard of this claim. (How someone would know that something found it's way into MS's source when very few outside of MS have seen the source would be one of my first questions.)

As for SCO, they're simply blowing smoke and hoping that everyone believes their claims. I'm actually quite enjoying it every time IBM or Novell blows another hole in their argument. ;-)

said by justanutter1:

Microsoft has a history of not being forth coming. I also speculate that the code in question was stolen in the breakin on the Microsoft network in the year 2000.


I'd have trouble believing that the stolen code would be able to sneak beneath the radar for over 3 years. AFAIK, there is some pretty good evidence that Mainsoft was the source of the leak.

said by justanutter1:

Jason, you are so completely in love with Microsoft. You are such a champion of her cause, I would never even bother trying to prove anything for you. I'll just wait and Microsoft will prove it for me. It is just a matter of time.


Nah. I'm not in love with MS. (For the record, I run OpenOffice.org on all of my PCs because I think MS Office isn't worth near what they charge for it.) I just tend to be quite skeptical when someone presents a huge conspiracy theory with little or no evidence to back it up. Yes, MS is quite a despicable company at times, but that doesn't make every bad theory about them true.
--
-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9474618 Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:25:42 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9474157 anon : Justin;

I suppose they could take the same tactic RIAA is currently using if they could ever figure out who did it in the first place. Unlikely. They might stop kids from sharing the files but they won't stop the files from being shared via Freenet.

Personally, Jason, when I say that I believe one thing and then demonstrate that I only believe it when it is convienent for me... I only prove I have prejudices.

Your disregard for RIAA (and their rights) while you support Microsoft in precisely the same circumstances, demonstrates that you are in fact prejudiced in favor of Microsoft. That won't come to many as a suprise but it is nice to see you demonstrate it so clearly.

RE: ...CODE STOLEN...

That is speculation based upon the smoking gun of a makefile from GPL which found its way into the Microsoft sources. A smoking gun does not a murder make, and neither does 17 lines of code which SCO refuses to produce in a similar situation. Microsoft has a history of not being forth coming. I also speculate that the code in question was stolen in the breakin on the Microsoft network in the year 2000. I know Microsoft says it was another company that lost the code, still what would have happened with the sales of Win2K if it had been published in October of 2000 that significant portions of the code had been stolen and were thought to be in Russia? What would be the best way to handle that from a security perspective, would it be to tell people what had been compromised so that they could judge for themselves what the wanted to run, or would it be to not tell anyone what was compromised? Now let's ask the same question from a financial perspective? Like I said, Microsoft does not have a history of openess or honesty and they certainly must have had financial reasons for not telling us what was stolen in the breakin of 2000 because they impacted the security of millions of systems by not telling us. Such risks are weighed carefully. Microsoft chose the smaller financial risk and elected to keep Win2K alive.

Jason, you are so completely in love with Microsoft. You are such a champion of her cause, I would never even bother trying to prove anything for you. I'll just wait and Microsoft will prove it for me. It is just a matter of time.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9474157 Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:31:47 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9473906 anon : Your question: "Why are you so angry? Take a deep breath, calm down already."

You started with name calling... yet somehow I have wronged you? Interesting but a bit twisted. So if I don't agree with you then I am a "nut buster" and if I call you for calling names... then I am upset and need to calm down...

Interesting game you play. You offer up the offense and if one responds with anger, they are in the wrong. If they respond with logic you attempt to turn it into anger... and again they are wrong.

Where did you get that license to be deliberatly insulting and then to walk away offended when you are called for doing it? I want one of those.

Figure it out.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9473906 Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:01:41 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9469993 Rhobite :
said by justanutter1:
So your crusade is a waste of your time, the worlds bandwidth, and well... it is entertaining for me...
Why are you so angry? Take a deep breath, calm down already.
--
Jimmysquid.com - I take pictures.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9469993 Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:08:38 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9466898 Jason Levine :
said by justanutter1:

There are so many people who have a copy of that code at this point that NOBODY is going to be prosecuted, guess why... Yeah, because Microsoft, yes even Microsoft is IMPOTENT to stop it.


Really? I would guess they would take the same tactic that the RIAA is currently using. Sue the uploaders and the downloaders won't have anything to download. And unlike some of the RIAA's actions, this one I would completely agree with.

said by justanutter1:

All that said, you ARE going to discover that Microsoft has stolen more of the GNU/GPL code than Linux has stolen of the SCO code... Mark my words.


Is there any proof to this claim or is it just an anti-MS rant? Yes, I know Microsoft isn't exactly a "cute and cuddly" company, and they've done more than their share of bad deeds, but call me crazy for still demanding some proof to an allegation like this.
--
-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9466898 Sun, 22 Feb 2004 01:57:07 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9465317 anon : RE: Why do you keep picking a fight with me, "nut buster"?

'scuse me... I didn't realize name calling was ok in this forum. I may join in then? Might I call you, "Anything but Bush"... meaning you're a real man's man? Honestly, if we're going to grovel in the mud, I expect I can do it as well as you but what say we don't?

Point is you can argue the legality of growing dandylions in the yard till your face is blue, but they will still grow, won't they?

So your crusade is a waste of your time, the worlds bandwidth, and well... it is entertaining for me...

:)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9465317 Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:23:59 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9463977 Rhobite : Why do you keep picking a fight with me, "nut buster"? I'm assuming that my tag has made you furious - good, that's my intention.

All I'm saying is it's illegal. Of course there's nothing that Microsoft can do to keep dedicated people from getting the source, but there's also nothing to stop them from suing a few unlucky people downloading the torrent.
--
Jimmysquid.com - I take pictures.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9463977 Sat, 21 Feb 2004 19:41:31 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9462989 anon : Yep.. It is illegal. It is also illegal to release a virus onto the Internet and hose up a million PC's. Do they do it, yep. Still illegal, but impotence being what it is, sixteen year olds still do it because the FBI is impotent to stop it.

DLing music is illegal, but does that stop the copying of music? No if Kazaa doesn't provide sufficient anonymity then FREENET does... And the sixteen year old kid continues to download his music and nobody can stop him... the IMPOTENCE of the FBI and RIAA still determine what is going to happen.

There are so many people who have a copy of that code at this point that NOBODY is going to be prosecuted, guess why... Yeah, because Microsoft, yes even Microsoft is IMPOTENT to stop it.

So, "Anyone but Bush", why not do a reality check and let the issue drop. MS can send out whatever they wish and these kids can tell MS to "pee up a rope" and MS will just drop the issue.

All that said, you ARE going to discover that Microsoft has stolen more of the GNU/GPL code than Linux has stolen of the SCO code... Mark my words.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9462989 Sat, 21 Feb 2004 17:40:39 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9461558 Rhobite :
said by jwcrim See Profile:
"Downloading copyrighted material is seen as copying"

Seen by who?
The courts, the prosecutors, and the copyright holders pretty much agree on this one. I honestly can't believe this is even a question. Of course it's illegal to download copyrighted material!
--
Jimmysquid.com - I take pictures.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9461558 Sat, 21 Feb 2004 14:47:16 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9460342 jwcrim : "Downloading copyrighted material is seen as copying"

Seen by who?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9460342 Sat, 21 Feb 2004 12:07:47 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9458370 dda :
said by weebl:
I would have thought, as I already own a copy of their software, that I ought to be able to look at the source code. After all it's just what I own in another form.


Technically, you do not own a copy of their code; you own a license to use the code in the manner they permit. Check that license and you will see it prohibits reverse-engineering, decompiling or pretty much anything that will show you the source. As for looking at the source you downloaded, it is protected by trade secret laws and might be considered "stolen property"; you would have to destroy it if asked and Microsoft is clearly asking.

Copyright actually prohibits much of what the average person thinks they can do with most intellectual property. It is just not worth it for most people to enforce that copyright but the RIAA and Microsoft do have the incentive (and the lawyers) to do so.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9458370 Sat, 21 Feb 2004 02:10:28 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9452919 dasesq : :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9452919 Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:57:20 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9452870 Evoluder : WWIV RULES!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9452870 Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:51:55 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9452722 Jason Levine :
said by tomkb See Profile:

Define un-authorized copy. May I not make a copy of any media I already own? I believe that's called fair use, and the dmca is trying to trample it.


Downloading the Windows source code is making an un-authorized copy unless MS gives you the thumbs up to do so. (Running Windows only gives you limited rights to the executable version, not the source.)

If you're talking about the music sidetrack, then downloading a copyrighted music file isn't allowed even if you own a physical media copy. (Unless, of course, the copyright holder gives you the thumbs up to do so.)

If you take a physical media copy that you own and make a backup copy or rip it to an electronic copy, that's ok so long as it's for your use only. (The minute you share it with anyone else, you're out of Fair Use territory.)

said by tomkb See Profile:

Businesses aren't raided by the bsa. They are not a law enforcement agency and have to prove their case like anyone else. The bsa is simply a collections agency.


The BSA has long been active in RIAA-style raids. The basic scenario is that someone rats out a company. The company is then sternly told to provide the BSA with documentation (licenses) that they own all of the software they are running. If they can't find some, they risk being sued. (IIRC, I'm a bit fuzzy on the penalty.)

said by tomkb See Profile:

What if someone decides to take the source code and make t-shirts? The cat's out of the bag, your trying to diffuse the bomb after it's already went off.


Microsoft still owns the copyright on the code and they would be able to prosecute anyone using their code in an unauthorized manner. To give a slightly different example: What if I were to take a photo of Mickey Mouse from the web and make some T-Shirts from it. After all, it's online so it must be fair game, right?

said by tomkb See Profile:

Regarding photocopying a book in a library, I guess children are no longer able to do school book reports.


AFAIK, you can still photocopy passages of a book in a library and still fall within Fair Use. If you decide to photocopy major portions (or all) of it, though, you would likely cross out of Fair Use territory.
--
-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9452722 Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:34:16 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9452479 tomkb :
said by Rhobite See Profile:
So many misconceptions here...

Downloading the code is a violation of copyright law. Possessing or using an unauthorized copy is a violation of copyright law, just ask any business that's been raided by the BSA. Distributing it is CERTAINLY against the law. And it's copyright law, not trade secret law. That's something different.

Dave isn't "way off base," he's got it exactly right. This situation is no different than photocopying a book in a library or book store.


Define un-authorized copy. May I not make a copy of any media I already own? I believe that's called fair use, and the dmca is trying to trample it.

Businesses aren't raided by the bsa. They are not a law enforcement agency and have to prove their case like anyone else. The bsa is simply a collections agency.

What if someone decides to take the source code and make t-shirts? The cat's out of the bag, your trying to diffuse the bomb after it's already went off.

Regarding photocopying a book in a library, I guess children are no longer able to do school book reports.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9452479 Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:09:03 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9451346 anon : There are trade secret laws, but once something gets posted, it's no longer a secret. It's still copyrighted, though.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9451346 Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:54:15 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9451335 anon : It's perfectly legal for them to send you a letter if that's what you are asking. Unless they are making illegal threats, they have every right to do so.

As for copyright law, they own the code. If you knowingly download it, it's illegal. The only exception would be if you have permission.

In general, people are confused about what is legal and not legal. Prior to the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), it was illegal to download files without permission, and illegal to upload them too. There was never a 24 hour rule, but there is a fair use rule; it would not apply to this case, but it would allow you to use portions of copyrighted material for educational use, magazine articles, etc. but you could not reprint a substantial portion of a copyrighted work.

As for music and software, you could copy it for backup purposes and for the purpose of changing the media, (such as transfer to hard disk) for the purpose of getting it to work on your machine. In the famous Sony Betamax case, courts ruled that you could copy an entire work, such as a movie that was broadcast on TV, so that you can watch it later (personal use only.) Logically, copying a movie from a broadcast or from a tape you rented or borrowed all serves the same purpose -- you had the right to view or hear the material, but you chose to do it at a later time. The same would hold true for copying a CD you borrowed. Not all of these were upheld (or even brought up) in any court. But it was not generally considered a problem for personal use.

Logically, downloading a song from the Internet does not seem much different. But the "on demand" nature was a problem for the recording industry, and it's all moot because the DMCA makes it illegal to upload or download music without permission from the copyright holder. That was an explicit change in copyright law.

You may have heard or read in the papers that the industry was only going after people who made things available for upload. This was not because downloading is legal. It's because it's an easier first step, and it's easier to make a legal case. In that case, they know that the songs are on your computer because you made them available. So it's easy for them to prove something. If you merely download, they don't know what's on your computer, and it's technically more difficult for them to track you. They can hunt for people who make things available for upload, but they would have to check the logs of those folks to try to find out if you downloaded and they still have no proof it's on your computer. But that does not make the download legal.

Before the DMCA, if you owned a CD and you downloaded an MP3 of a tune from the CD for your convenience (instead of just copying it from your CD,) chances are that a court would not have considered that you broke any law. That might have technically changed under the DMCA (I'm far from an expert on it but I think it changed) but I still doubt that anybody would prosecute you for it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9451335 Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:52:04 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9450860 anon : There are numerous precedents that might make it actually legal. One of the latest examples involves web site www.blueovalnews.com which posted secret Ford Motor Company documents that were damaging to the automaker. Ford was trying to fight the web site in court claiming, that the documents belonged to Ford, were trade secrets and copyrighted materials that were stolen from Ford by some disgruntled employee and should never get into the hands of the guy who published them. In the first instance and in the appeal FORD LOST and dropped the case !!!. In both cases judges gave verdict which in effect said, that it is Ford responsibility to find the guilty employee who have stolen the materials and then prosecute them. The guy who posted them was cleared from all the charges. I happen to disagree with this, since the web site was posting materials that were in fact stolen but I'm not the law :-)

JM]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9450860 Fri, 20 Feb 2004 11:52:59 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9449322 anon : I believe T.A.G was based off of the WWIV bbs, which was a sort of open source at the time.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9449322 Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:05:58 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9448727 anon : Simply put: It's illegal to obtain something you never rightfully had access to. That's like saying, I'll download 10000 songs from people, and it was their fault, not mine.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9448727 Fri, 20 Feb 2004 04:30:59 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9447594 DadeMurphy : I'd just like to point out that you are not making the copy, you are requesting that someone else make a copy and send it to you.

Using the bookstore analogy again, it would be like calling your friend that is at the bookstore that has a copying machine, asking him to make copies of a book for you then having him send them through the mail to you, so you have not made the copy but the system uploading it has.
--
Asus A7N8X, Athlon XP 2500+ Unlocked Barton, 768MB Melco PC2700, Win 2K, 3 Case Fans, DD Maze 3, Z-Chip WB, Eheim 1250 pump]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9447594 Fri, 20 Feb 2004 00:09:13 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9447564 travelguy : I just tossed a Qmodem box out a couple of months ago. Traded emails with John Freil a couple of years ago. He runs an ISP in Iowa now.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9447564 Fri, 20 Feb 2004 00:05:34 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9447548 Rhobite : So many misconceptions here...

Downloading the code is a violation of copyright law. Possessing or using an unauthorized copy is a violation of copyright law, just ask any business that's been raided by the BSA. Distributing it is CERTAINLY against the law. And it's copyright law, not trade secret law. That's something different.

Dave isn't "way off base," he's got it exactly right. This situation is no different than photocopying a book in a library or book store.
--
Jimmysquid.com - I take pictures.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9447548 Fri, 20 Feb 2004 00:03:16 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9447547 rmdir : Amen, my brothers. This talk reminds me of just how long I've been doing this stuff.
What a long strange trip it's been.:)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9447547 Fri, 20 Feb 2004 00:03:08 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9446452 anon : Downloading/Seeing the code may not fall under copyright law, it may fall under trade secret law? I'm not sure though.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9446452 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:18:33 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9445138 Rhobite : It may be legal to possess the software, or even distribute snippets of code under fair use. But I'm pretty sure that it's illegal to copy the entire source code, which is what happens when you download it. This is similar to the library, where it's technically illegal for you to photocopy an entire book. But in that case the library staff usually looks the other way.
--
Jimmysquid.com - I take pictures.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9445138 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:25:32 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9444653 anon :
The correct analogy would be if you were to start photocopying the book in the bookstore.

('Fair use' of course would allow small extracts, as long as you could get the bookstore to agree.)

You are way off base on this.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9444653 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:44:55 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9444432 RichMark : Say Hey-

Read on just a bit more... especially the phrase
==> for purposes such as criticism ==

»www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include -

(1)the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2)the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3)the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4)the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

-Rich]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9444432 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:25:28 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9444319 anon : Here's to the grand old days of BBSing!

Sparky
Father of QWK]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9444319 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:14:28 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9444245 Melchior : WildCat! was sold off and it was picked up by Santronics who still continue to make it.. there are a few systems running it still as it's very web/internet oriented now.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9444245 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:06:50 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9443898 anon : Hello Microsoft (M$) are you listening?

That is the sound of another FREENET node being installed...

Looks like you have a problem.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9443898 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:36:14 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9443734 anon : Trade secret only apply to dealings between corporations., and even then they apply to the person violating the agreements signed as a condition of hiring or between unfair dealings with a country that doesn't recognize our laws. Trade is the key word here.

As for downloading being illegal...check with your lawyer, however, it is copyright violation to distribute without a license, not to receive without a license. And the monetary threshold applies to whether or not it's a felony or a misdemeanor.

It would be illegal to break into a server to grab the code and distribute it, but if they have it on a public FTP site (anonymous login) then no one broke in to get it. I don't know how the code was originally downloaded but the legality of M$ actions with their statement is debate-able.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9443734 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:21:41 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9443669 TheMadSwede :
said by Logan 5 See Profile:
Mustang Systems..wonder what ever became of them???


If I'm not mistaken, they wrote an ok Customer Messaging Tool for customer service via email. Could be a different Mustang.
--
A good idea expressed in a poor manner is a bad idea.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9443669 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:14:42 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9443359 Camelot One : Thank you AthlGrond.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9443359 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:43:53 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9443339 ftzsee : »www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html#506
:)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9443339 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:42:50 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9443265 Rhobite : »www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/106.html

Downloading copyrighted material is seen as copying, which is illegal without permission of the copyright holder. Some people think that downloading falls under fair use if they don't share the file, or it's legal for the first 24 hours. There's nothing in the law that supports either of these ideas.
--
Jimmysquid.com - I take pictures.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9443265 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:36:20 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9443161 jackknife : Our educational system is fine.

Our people are stupid!:uhh:]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9443161 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:27:11 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9443135 AthlGrond :
said by Camelot One See Profile:
I still see nothing that specifically states that downloading copyrighted music is a crime.

You mean you weren't joking? Oh, well...

Take a peek at: »www.copyright.gov/

When you download a song you have made a copy of it, which is prohibited and thus illegal.

said by US Copyright Office:
WHAT IS COPYRIGHT?
Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United States (title 17, U.S. Code) to the authors of "original works of authorship," including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works. This protection is available to both published and unpublished works. Section 106 of the 1976 Copyright Act generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to do and to authorize others to do the following:

To reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords;

To prepare derivative works based upon the work;

To distribute copies or phonorecords of the work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;

To perform the work publicly, in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works;

To display the copyrighted work publicly, in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work; and

In the case of sound recordings, to perform the work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission.

In addition, certain authors of works of visual art have the rights of attribution and integrity as described in section 106A of the 1976 Copyright Act. For further information, request Circular 40, "Copyright Registration for Works of the Visual Arts."

It is illegal for anyone to violate any of the rights provided by the copyright law to the owner of copyright. These rights, however, are not unlimited in scope. Sections 107 through 121 of the 1976 Copyright Act establish limitations on these rights. In some cases, these limitations are specified exemptions from copyright liability. One major limitation is the doctrine of "fair use," which is given a statutory basis in section 107 of the 1976 Copyright Act. In other instances, the limitation takes the form of a "compulsory license" under which certain limited uses of copyrighted works are permitted upon payment of specified royalties and compliance with statutory conditions. For further information about the limitations of any of these rights, consult the copyright law or write to the Copyright Office.
Here is a link to all the exceptions including fair use etc: »www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9443135 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:25:10 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442992 Jason Levine :
said by weebl:
I would have thought, as I already own a copy of their software, that I ought to be able to look at the source code. After all it's just what I own in another form.


You own a license to use the software. That license contains certain provisions. For example, you can't give your copy away to ten of your best friends.

You have no license to the source code. This means you aren't allowed to download it, even just to look at. With Open Source applications, they specifically grant you the right to download and look at the code. If the coders on an Open Source app were to revoke that right and go to a Closed Source model, you wouldn't be able to look at the code for subsequent versions. (Let's ignore for a second just how something would go from Open Source to Closed Source. It's a completely hypothetical example. In the real world it would probably be next to impossible to pull off.)
--
-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442992 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:09:30 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442929 anon : Uh, DUDE!

As I recall from NETCRAFT, more than half of web servers are Linux. As I understand, the entire Linux system is GPL (which allows anyone to view or play with the code). Government servers run this, and to the best of my knowledge, none of them have been seriously raped.

Besides, it's 2000. Under the government licensing programs, they are required to use XP. The nation isn't is jeopardy if the code for a OS that M$ has all but stopped supporting gets released to the public.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442929 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:03:46 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442812 Camelot One : While I appreciate both of you posting links to actual law, after reading them, I still see nothing that specifically states that downloading copyrighted music is a crime.

I do however see dcgaber's point about trade secrets in regard to the MS code (the topic of the thread) I think it would be a very tough case to make, but since lawsuits are all about who has more money, they could make it work.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442812 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:50:10 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442776 Jason Levine :
said by Sarick See Profile:


Downloading music IS NOT A CRIME..

WHY..

Downloading Copyrighted music without a license is ILLEGAL.


You're right. I should have been more specific. :-)

Within the US, downloading copyrighted music without permission from the copyright holder isn't legal.
--
-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442776 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:47:14 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442589 dasesq : Here are some laws for you....copying appears to be a crime (thus, "copyright")

»caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/···106.html
»caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/···501.html
»caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/···506.html]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442589 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:28:15 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442581 anon : I would have thought, as I already own a copy of their software, that I ought to be able to look at the source code. After all it's just what I own in another form.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442581 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:27:20 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442556 Sarick : I could say yes your right.

The problem with agreeing with that is, even though it's not illegal you can still get sued for doing it.

A Lawsuit can be more than enough to make people tremble in fear.
--
Sarick's Dungeon Clipart Page
Trouble spelling? www.iespell.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442556 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:25:15 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442554 anon : Check the criminal code out (too lazy to provide a link), but once you cross a certain monetary threshold, you are committing a crime. There are civil and criminal remedies.

The code is also protected under trade secret laws. Be aware, in the US, having that code is illegal. Think of it this way, you may say it is not illegal to look at it, but perhaps illegal to copy it. When you have it in your computer, you are making a buffer copy to look at it, that is copying and courts (and legislatures) consider that to be infirngement.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442554 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:25:11 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442538 anon : How about US Code Title 17, Section 106(1)(»www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/106.html)?

Drop this into your pipe: By definition, only the copyright holder may authorize reproduction of the copyrighted work. Before your download of the file there is one copy -- on the uploader's computer. Post download there are two copies. Based solely on your action of requesting the file was a copy made.

Just because you're in a (to steal a reference from down the thread) bookstore with a photo-copier in it, doesn't give you the right to make copies


Now would you please stop your ranting about downloading copyrighted, unauthorized reproductions of music files being legal?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442538 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:24:11 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442226 anon : I'd say a bigger threat to the security of your country is your atrocious educational system.

(BTW your spelling is terrible.)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442226 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:58:04 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442126 dave :
said by Jacek:
If this would be the case, it would make illegal to read fragments of the book in a bookstore before buying one.
The correct analogy would be if you were to start photocopying the book in the bookstore.

('Fair use' of course would allow small extracts, as long as you could get the bookstore to agree.)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9442126 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:50:03 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9441943 Camelot One : Well and again we've gone WAY off topic, from Microsoft back to the RIAA. For the last time, downloading music, even copyrighted music, IS NOT A CRIME! It is not illegal, it is not punishable by death, or any of the other RIAA propaganda. Distributing copyrighted music is a violation of copyright law, punishable in a civil court.

Feel free to prove me wrong by posting a US law that says otherwise.

But back to the topic, does anyone have any legal fact showing it is against the law to download Microsoft's leaked source code? Download- not upload, distrubute, make public, or in any other way share, but that downloading it is a CRIME?
--
AMD XP2500+ @2388mhz/ Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe/ 2x 512Mb Kingston HyperX PC3500/ WD 120Gb on serial/ Gainward GF4 4600/ Enermax 465P-VE/ Custom water cooler]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9441943 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:32:47 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9441866 Sarick :
said by Jason Levine See Profile:

Downloading music is a crime. It's just a lot harder to prove that you downloaded music than it is to prove that you uploaded music. (And it's next to impossible to tell that you downloaded more than one music file.) That's why the RIAA is going after uploaders. (Plus, if they take out/scare away enough uploaders, there won't be anything for the downloaders to download.)


Downloading music IS NOT A CRIME..

WHY..

Downloading Copyrighted music without a license is ILLEGAL.

I download music all the time, I don't mean copyrighted stuff but public music like those offered to the public FREE.

Also it's not illegal to download from Napster, if you pay $0.99..

Downloading isn't illegal its only illegal if what your downloading is restricted by law.

In some areas of the world there are different or no restrictions placed on a copyright.
--
Sarick's Dungeon Clipart Page
Trouble spelling? www.iespell.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9441866 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:25:33 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9441850 anon : Thats for sure, I am tired of this monopoly pumping out crappy code they EXPECT me to pay for. Then I get attacked by viri, worms, popups, spam, spyware, all exploiting holes in their crappy code they ignored till it was too late. Then when then the Gov steps in and finally acts like they are going to come down on this monopoly, they use a portion of their billions in cash to stall the legal system till a new pres is elected that they contributed millions in campain contributions. As then expected, convictions are minimised and cut down and essentially shoed away to a slap on the wrist. Getting that code really doesnt amount to much but its about time we got a peek at the headache weve had to live with for decades. Any new exploits discovered now are going to get a whole new perspective and judgement, from the people. Lets face it, this is the most battle tested os there is and it has lost so many wars that it will never be used to control a spacecraft. When a monopoly is amook the people get stuck with the crap.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9441850 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:23:49 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9441733 djrobsd : Let's not forget the T.A.G. BBS system. One of the best ones in its days. I forget all the other crazy ones that were out there, but there were definately a lot of hacks of some of the more original one, and T.A.G. was one very good hack. I forget which system it was based off of, but I sure do miss running my T.A.G. BBS. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9441733 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:09:58 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9441729 Camelot One :
said by Jason Levine See Profile:
Downloading is a copyright violation as well (at least in the USA, YMMV in other countries). It's simply harder to find out whether you've downloaded something you shouldn't (such as a copyrighted music file) versus uploaded something you shouldn't.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, but do you have any links to proof of this in law? It is getting harder and harder to tell legal fact from opinion on the boards.
--
AMD XP2500+ @2388mhz/ Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe/ 2x 512Mb Kingston HyperX PC3500/ WD 120Gb on serial/ Gainward GF4 4600/ Enermax 465P-VE/ Custom water cooler]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9441729 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:09:32 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9441388 Logan 5 :
said by Karl Bode See Profile:
I've been seeing that silly 24 hour warning since the days of Wildcat! BBS systems....
Now THAT's a blast fro the past. :p

Mustang Systems..wonder what ever became of them??? I used to have a BBS running their software in the 80's until I got too popular and ran up the family phone bill for the 2nd line...LOL

Thanks for the trip down memory lane Karl....:)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9441388 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:34:08 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9441352 Karl Bode : I've been seeing that silly 24 hour warning since the days of Wildcat! BBS systems....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9441352 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:30:29 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9441171 kapil : Yes, Yes, Mr. Ashcroft, everything has to do with the security of our country...I'm surprised you didn't blame the leak on terrorists. You're an idiot if you think our country is at risk because Microsoft's corporate security sucks.
--
::: Do, or do not, there is no try::: »www.kapilville.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9441171 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:13:17 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9441093 tomkb :
said by Jacek:
I don't think so.
Second: copryighted doesn't mean secret. Copyrighted means, one cannot use the software without license. I don't think it prevents reading the code. If this would be the case, it would make illegal to read fragments of the book in a bookstore before buying one.

JM


That's an interesting way to look at it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9441093 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:05:26 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440897 Jason Levine :
said by Camelot One See Profile:
Using your thinking, downloading music would be a crime, and we all know it isn't.


Downloading music is a crime. It's just a lot harder to prove that you downloaded music than it is to prove that you uploaded music. (And it's next to impossible to tell that you downloaded more than one music file.) That's why the RIAA is going after uploaders. (Plus, if they take out/scare away enough uploaders, there won't be anything for the downloaders to download.)
--
-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440897 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:43:47 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440874 Jason Levine :
said by Camelot One See Profile:
I was just wondering the same thing. I thought uploading/sharing protected work was a copyright violation, but not downloading.


Downloading is a copyright violation as well (at least in the USA, YMMV in other countries). It's simply harder to find out whether you've downloaded something you shouldn't (such as a copyrighted music file) versus uploaded something you shouldn't.

said by Camelot One See Profile:

I know the laws for software are a little different than they are for music, but it seems like I remember something about 24 hour educational evaluations being legal, so long as you delete the material after that time. I remember that from long ago though, can't say for sure it is even true.


The "24 hour rule" is a myth created by folks attempting to justify downloading music and other items. (You see this all the time on ROM download sites. They all state that you can download it so long as you delete it after 24 hours.) There is no basis to this in law. It falls into the category of "say it often enough and folks will think it's true."
--
-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440874 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:41:10 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440791 Logan 5 :
said by NewLife See Profile:
I mean this leak, no mater how big or little the amount of code, has put all users in jeopardy including the security of our country.
WOW!! I think we have a record here....Only 3 posts in to a discussion about MS's leaked code and we have the first "doomsday" post that we're all gonna die and our Computers get a pox because a majority of the IE6 codebase was leaked. :uhh:

People should be far more worried about publically unmentioned O/S exploits that (almost quietly) go 200+ days before being patched than some more examples of leaky code in Internet Exploder. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440791 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:32:01 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440595 anon : I don't think so.

First: the message says "aroud the world" which already assumes, that all countries have the same law. That is of course nonsense as DVD Jon already proved. I wouldn't be surprised if North Korea would ignore US copyright.

Second: copryighted doesn't mean secret. Copyrighted means, one cannot use the software without license. I don't think it prevents reading the code. If this would be the case, it would make illegal to read fragments of the book in a bookstore before buying one.

JM]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440595 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:11:57 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440582 AthlGrond :
said by Camelot One See Profile:
Using your thinking, downloading music would be a crime, and we all know it isn't.
LOL

Good one!
--
System protected by Impregnable Ignorance (TM)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440582 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:10:42 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440566 NewLife :
said by Camelot One See Profile:
Do you by change have any links to the laws on this? I thought the issue of illegally shared material applied specifically to video's protected under a law written just for that purpose. Using your thinking, downloading music would be a crime, and we all know it isn't.


No I do not have any links concerning this but with the FBI involved looking for who leaked the code and things of that nature I would definitely be thankful that MS is warning users. I bet that somewhere in the great book of laws there is a law that covers this type of thing but its probably buried under alot of dust.
--
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AMD 2400 XP/512 PC2700 RAM/128 MEG ASUS 9280TS Video/80 GB HDD/Audigy]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440566 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:08:47 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440533 Krispy :
said by gnotella_luvr:
I mean this leak, no mater how big or little the amount of code, has put all users in jeopardy including the security of our country.

Guess it depends on how you look it...it could be argued that it will actually make it safer as more eyes looking for more holes will prompt MS to fix bugs faster.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other I guess.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440533 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:05:23 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440530 Camelot One :
said by NewLife See Profile:
Yes they can do that because of the simple fact that downloading their code is not legal. Its proprietary, copyrighted code that has been illegally leaked to the internet and downloading it is illegal to.
Do you by change have any links to the laws on this? I thought the issue of illegally shared material applied specifically to video's protected under a law written just for that purpose. Using your thinking, downloading music would be a crime, and we all know it isn't.
--
AMD XP2500+ @2388mhz/ Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe/ 2x 512Mb Kingston HyperX PC3500/ WD 120Gb on serial/ Gainward GF4 4600/ Enermax 465P-VE/ Custom water cooler]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440530 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:05:01 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440494 NewLife : Yes they can do that because of the simple fact that downloading their code is not legal. Its proprietary, copyrighted code that has been illegally leaked to the internet and downloading it is illegal to.

But if I was M$ I would definitely step back and take a look at not only the security of my software but the overall security of my organization. I mean this leak, no mater how big or little the amount of code, has put all users in jeopardy including the security of our country.
--
Help Find A Cure! Join Team Helix!
AMD 2400 XP/512 PC2700 RAM/128 MEG ASUS 9280TS Video/80 GB HDD/Audigy]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440494 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:01:15 EDT Re: Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440492 Camelot One : I was just wondering the same thing. I thought uploading/sharing protected work was a copyright violation, but not downloading.

I know the laws for software are a little different than they are for music, but it seems like I remember something about 24 hour educational evaluations being legal, so long as you delete the material after that time. I remember that from long ago though, can't say for sure it is even true.
--
AMD XP2500+ @2388mhz/ Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe/ 2x 512Mb Kingston HyperX PC3500/ WD 120Gb on serial/ Gainward GF4 4600/ Enermax 465P-VE/ Custom water cooler]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440492 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:01:05 EDT Are they even able to do that? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440444 GeminiCub4U : That isn't legal, is it?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,9440444 Thu, 19 Feb 2004 12:56:10 EDT