 LinklistPremium
join:2002-03-03
Longport, NJ
kudos:5 | Tenebaum had a good lawyer - but he was a lousy client Tenenbaum certainly shares plenty of blame for lying to the courts and a Keystone-cops-esque legal team
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 pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
1 edit | said by Linklist:Tenenbaum certainly shares plenty of blame for lying to the courts and a Keystone-cops-esque legal team Tenenbaum's lawyer was Harvard Law School Professor Charles Nesson. He had a good lawyer. But he was a lousy client. I disagree. A good lawyer would have pushed a truly liable defendant to settle and quickly. A good lawyer would also have been able to evaluate the evidence presented by the plaintiff during the discovery process and then concluded that settling would have been the least worst option for his client. Such a move would have resulted in far less of a punishment for the defendant.
A bad lawyer would insist on going to trial, even knowing that he has no chance, and letting his client be destroyed.
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 darciliciousCyber LibrarianPremium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:2 | But in the end, doesn't the lawyer have to do as instructed? Wasn't it the client that insisted upon going to trial?
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LinklistPremium
join:2002-03-03
Longport, NJ
kudos:5 | said by darcilicious:But in the end, doesn't the lawyer have to do as instructed? Wasn't it the client that insisted upon going to trial?
Yes.
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 cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | reply to pnh102
said by pnh102:A good lawyer would have pushed a truly liable defendant to settle and quickly. He did try to settle. Every time that he tried the amount that the RIAA would accept basically doubled to the point where it no longer was an option to just settle. Once it reached that point, it really wasn't an issue about money rather it was about attempting to clear his name, or if that did not work have the judgement reduced/eliminated on the grounds it was unconstitutional.
Tenebaum isn't destroyed. His name has been recorded in the history books and has been made famous. Yeah he has a $675k judgement against him. He also has just gotten out of college, so he probably doesn't have much in the way of assets to his name to begin with. Depending on what his wages are, he's semi-judgement proof (well, resistant) with regards to collections. Plus, he can file for bankruptcy, have the judgement discharged since it wasn't willful AND malicious infringement, and move on with his life. Even if he doesn't, move to a state that doesn't garnish out of state judgements, has a low maximum garnishment rate, and/or shorter judgement collections period. |
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 tshirtPremium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:3
 ·Comcast
1 edit | reply to darcilicious
Yes, but from his writings and interviews it is really obvious the professor REALLY wanted to win this case, and therefore MAY not have pushed the client as hard as he could have to settle.
On the other hand the Judge did deny a new trial, which means he must believe the client was fully and competently rerpresented during the trial and appeal.
The most they could go for now is that the last appeal was mishandled, which would be a stretch to even get a hearing on. and the superme court nixed that. |
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tshirtPremium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:3 Reviews:
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Assuming any BUSINESS wants to hire someone with that claim to fame.
This isn't like he proved he was the world's greatest hacker, or the world's smartest law student quite the oppisite
He only proved he took some businesses product, used it in an illegal way, and then spent years unsucessfully attempting not to pay for it.
Not exactly a fine upstanding employee/example to show off to clients.
even in math and Physics ethical behavior is important |
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| said by tshirt: Not exactly a fine upstanding employee/example to show off to clients.
I've never really meet anybody who takes downloading music as a "crime"
Everyone that I know who is aware of this case is just in awe at the vindictiveness of the RIAA.
This lawsuit just made more people hate them. (more) |
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| reply to Linklist
said by Linklist:Tenenbaum's lawyer was Harvard Law School Professor Charles Nesson. He had a good lawyer. But he was a lousy client.
And you know this how, exactly?
I think it's just as likely that the Harvard Law Professor decided he was Clarence Darrow, or arguing before the Supreme Court, and went laughably big.
The judge essentially called him a moron.
Personally, a Harvard Law professor is the last person I'd hire to do, well, anything, especially defend me in court. |
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pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | reply to cdru
said by cdru:He did try to settle. Every time that he tried the amount that the RIAA would accept basically doubled to the point where it no longer was an option to just settle. Once it reached that point, it really wasn't an issue about money rather it was about attempting to clear his name, or if that did not work have the judgement reduced/eliminated on the grounds it was unconstitutional. But had he settled, it would have most likely been for far less than the amount for which he is on the hook. It would have been a lot of money, but not as much as $675k.
I doubt that will work since he is on record as having ignored the legal warnings he received.
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Romney/Ryan 2012 - Put a couple of mature adults in charge. |
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| reply to MyDogHsFleas
said by MyDogHsFleas:said by Linklist:Tenenbaum's lawyer was Harvard Law School Professor Charles Nesson. He had a good lawyer. But he was a lousy client.
And you know this how, exactly? I think it's just as likely that the Harvard Law Professor decided he was Clarence Darrow, or arguing before the Supreme Court, and went laughably big. The judge essentially called him a moron. Personally, a Harvard Law professor is the last person I'd hire to do, well, anything, especially defend me in court. I agree. When I was in college I had a little bit of social crisis and couldn't rely on anyone's advice, even my family. I only could rely on myself. I went to "psychological therapists" that my university provided for free or low cost ($5 each session). What a joke. Basically a bunch of college graduate students doing master in psychology conducting experiments on distressed undergraduate students like they were some rabbits. Listening to their advice might have done more harm than good. At the time I was just full-time student going to college. I did not have a job, insurance and money to go to a real psychologist/psychiatrist.
No wonder why you get crazy folks sometimes shooting people on college campuses or theaters. Social programs are very underfunded and limited whether public or private. |
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cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | reply to tshirt
said by tshirt:Assuming any BUSINESS wants to hire someone with that claim to fame.
This isn't like he proved he was the world's greatest hacker, or the world's smartest law student quite the oppisite
He only proved he took some businesses product, used it in an illegal way, and then spent years unsucessfully attempting not to pay for it.
Not exactly a fine upstanding employee/example to show off to clients.
even in math and Physics ethical behavior is important
He has a PhD in physics. Whatever employment he does get I bet has history has zero impact. An overwhelming number of people have no idea who Joel Tenebaum is. And if they google him they will find out, but I don't think they will care. He's one of millions of other people that have pirated music. He's just one of the few that got caught. |
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cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | reply to pnh102
said by pnh102:But had he settled, it would have most likely been for far less than the amount for which he is on the hook. It would have been a lot of money, but not as much as $675k. According to the wiki, he first tried to settle for $500 of $3500 since that's what he had at the time when things first started. Record companies balked. Pre-trial he offered $5250 but the record companies wanted "double". Later he offered $12,000 and the record companies refused claiming that the further they get into the process, the higher the settlement amount goes. While this is their right to increase, they also have to know that the more that it goes up the less and less likely they will see a return on what they are "investing" in the case. While the RIAA ultimately may be able to claim a victory in this case, they've probably have spent more money fighting it over 9 years than what the judgement will get them. And during that 9 years piracy obviously took notice marked by it's dramatic decline. Or not.
said by cdru:I doubt that will work since he is on record as having ignored the legal warnings he received. He was 16 when the infringement happened. He subsequent fighting of the case probably turned into some degree of malice, his initial infringement didn't have any. I think it would be very difficult to prove that he purposefully and deliberately intended harm which is a required component to not have it discharged.
The EFF has an great memo on this very issue. |
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