 | reply to Goober
Re: Holding companies are the problem.... The interesting thing is that most of us would agree on who a patent troll is if we posted the facts of a case. When you try to define it with precision, the troll can tweak a few settings to get to the other side of the demarkation point. It then takes years for Congress to regroup.
Congress has dealt with other similar problems by delegating the rulemaking authority to agencies to change the criteria to deal with adaptive system abusers. For example, designer drug laws allow the DEA to ban new drugs that have certain properties even though they are not listed by name. This stops drug dealers from creating slight variations in drugs to slide around the rules. Similarly, the IRS can do this with tax structures. When people suggested a similar proposal to deal with assault weapons, people went ballistic.
If you look at many of these patent trolls, they operate out of offices the size of a shoebox (rarely a mailbox), in the Eastern District of Texas, are fully owned by lawyers who make their living representing these corporations. Since corporations are separate legal entities, they can collect attorney fees. (Someone representing themselves cannot).
My thoughts are as follows:
*We stop the trolls from getting attorney fees from the other side by allowing the court to peer through the structure and make an economic reality based test whether the lawyer and the business are largely overlapping;
*We create a special patent/copyright enforcement court that is designed for virtual litigation (appearance by teleconference, fasttracked discovery), etc.;
*We create a fast tracked first stage of litigation with limited discovery (to stop abusive discovery aimed at burdening the defendant);
*We allow damages to mitigated by proof that the infringment was untintentional and the product of good faith patent research. If the infringment is unintentional, we can offset the damages by proof of what the cost and reduced sales would be to go forward with alternate non-infringing technology. For example, Samsung quickly reworked their phones to deal with some of Apple's patent claims. In a judgment issued for an infringement, the jury should be asked to determine how many more phones would have been sold because of the infringing similarity than if the product had come to market with the non-infring interface;
*If the infringment is innocent (see above), compulsory licenses can be calculated with reference to industry standard fees with some multiplier, e.g. no more than 2.5 times what the factfinder believes comparable licenses were granted for;
Special rules should be put in place for probable trolls. I believe that the Justice Department or the Patent Office should be empowered to promulgate rules defining the ever changing characteristics of a troll and that Congress should identify the criteria with a broad brush. Trolls could further be limited to only collecting X times what they originally paid for the patent. |
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 GooberPremium join:2000-12-17 Naperville, IL kudos:5 Reviews:
·Dish Network
| said by stufried:The interesting thing is that most of us would agree on who a patent troll is if we posted the facts of a case. When you try to define it with precision, the troll can tweak a few settings to get to the other side of the demarkation point. It then takes years for Congress to regroup.
Congress has dealt with other similar problems by delegating the rulemaking authority to agencies to change the criteria to deal with adaptive system abusers. For example, designer drug laws allow the DEA to ban new drugs that have certain properties even though they are not listed by name. This stops drug dealers from creating slight variations in drugs to slide around the rules. Similarly, the IRS can do this with tax structures. When people suggested a similar proposal to deal with assault weapons, people went ballistic.
If you look at many of these patent trolls, they operate out of offices the size of a shoebox (rarely a mailbox), in the Eastern District of Texas, are fully owned by lawyers who make their living representing these corporations. Since corporations are separate legal entities, they can collect attorney fees. (Someone representing themselves cannot).
My thoughts are as follows:
*We stop the trolls from getting attorney fees from the other side by allowing the court to peer through the structure and make an economic reality based test whether the lawyer and the business are largely overlapping;
*We create a special patent/copyright enforcement court that is designed for virtual litigation (appearance by teleconference, fasttracked discovery), etc.;
*We create a fast tracked first stage of litigation with limited discovery (to stop abusive discovery aimed at burdening the defendant);
*We allow damages to mitigated by proof that the infringment was untintentional and the product of good faith patent research. If the infringment is unintentional, we can offset the damages by proof of what the cost and reduced sales would be to go forward with alternate non-infringing technology. For example, Samsung quickly reworked their phones to deal with some of Apple's patent claims. In a judgment issued for an infringement, the jury should be asked to determine how many more phones would have been sold because of the infringing similarity than if the product had come to market with the non-infring interface;
*If the infringment is innocent (see above), compulsory licenses can be calculated with reference to industry standard fees with some multiplier, e.g. no more than 2.5 times what the factfinder believes comparable licenses were granted for;
Special rules should be put in place for probable trolls. I believe that the Justice Department or the Patent Office should be empowered to promulgate rules defining the ever changing characteristics of a troll and that Congress should identify the criteria with a broad brush. Trolls could further be limited to only collecting X times what they originally paid for the patent. Patent trolling has a giant industry. Look at Intellectual Ventures and Rockstar Consortium. The latter in particular, since it's backed by big business.
I don't necessarily disagree with your thoughts, but they would require massive changes in the laws. And regarding the expansion of RAND licensing and innocent infringers, that's not as easy to tackle as you would make it seem, although it's not a bad idea. -- No more corruption, lying and unremitting stupidity by Obama. Impeach the clueless, anti-business, socialist now. |
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 | I don't think any of this is easy and the twenty minutes I put into my post is no substitute for carefully thought out legislation. I also know that everytime major litigation passes it takes years of litigation to sort out. Lastly, I know that every law has unintended consequences. One reason I suggest implementation of the law through regulations was to permit a more dynamic system to deal with problems on both sides. Consider my suggestions talking points. Perhaps someone with more skills in this field than I can take the ball and run with it. |
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 MoracCat god join:2001-08-30 Riverside, NJ kudos:1 Reviews:
·Comcast
| reply to stufried said by stufried:The interesting thing is that most of us would agree on who a patent troll is if we posted the facts of a case. I'm not sure about that. For example, every time a story comes up about TiVo suing a company, I inevitably see a bunch of responses that TiVo is a patent troll, despite the fact that TiVo manufacturers and sells products based on their patents.
To some people any company that sues over software patents is a patent troll. -- The Comcast Disney Avatar has been retired. |
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 Oh_NoTrogglus normalus join:2011-05-21 Chicago, IL | That is true. This bill wont fix the real problem allowing companies to patent vague ideas and concepts with no working product or allowing them to patent an idea that the computer world already does and knows about.
Tivo invented nothing. They made a product off prior ideas that were common knowledge, but were just the first person who filed paperwork as they had the money to do so. Tivo makes a product, but they are also a patent troll using patents they never should have received to stop competition. Just because you manufacture the product does not mean you are not a patent troll. Microsoft, samsung, apple all patent troll (partly because they need to be able to retaliate against each other.) |
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 GooberPremium join:2000-12-17 Naperville, IL kudos:5 | You people are nuts. I'll leave you all to blather on about things of which you have no clue. |
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 MoracCat god join:2001-08-30 Riverside, NJ kudos:1 | reply to Oh_No
dupe post dupe post |
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 MoracCat god join:2001-08-30 Riverside, NJ kudos:1 | reply to Oh_No
Re: Holding companies are the problem.... And you just proved my point. |
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 Oh_NoTrogglus normalus join:2011-05-21 Chicago, IL | said by Morac:And you just proved my point. Not 100% as many technology companies have legit patents and they need to protect. But there are trolls that patent ideas they did not invent. As I said the companies are forced to play the patent troll games so they patent everything even when they know they did not invent it.
The main problem is someone who knows nothing about current technology and what is out there is approving patents that should not exist. So basically a company can search sourceforge, internet forums, and small time companies who dont have money to fight lawsuits and patent their ideas with no working product. Then they use that patent to fight their competitors. |
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 KearnstdElf WizardPremium join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ | reply to Morac said by Morac:said by stufried:The interesting thing is that most of us would agree on who a patent troll is if we posted the facts of a case. I'm not sure about that. For example, every time a story comes up about TiVo suing a company, I inevitably see a bunch of responses that TiVo is a patent troll, despite the fact that TiVo manufacturers and sells products based on their patents. To some people any company that sues over software patents is a patent troll. The problem is should Tivo be allowed to fully own some of their features or just the specific software code that makes them happen. This is where the software patent issues come into play, If someone codes their own DVR should they have to pay a license fee for someone else's code that does the same thing but with a different internal process. -- [65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports |
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 MoracCat god join:2001-08-30 Riverside, NJ kudos:1 Reviews:
·Comcast
| said by Kearnstd:The problem is should Tivo be allowed to fully own some of their features or just the specific software code that makes them happen. This is where the software patent issues come into play, If someone codes their own DVR should they have to pay a license fee for someone else's code that does the same thing but with a different internal process. That's how patents work. You can't patent ideas, only processes. Anyone is free to work around a patented process by coming up with a different process to accomplish the same thing.
The problem is when the patented processes are so ridiculous simplistic such that there is no way around said patent. Patents like those are supposed to be rejected as "obvious". Amazon's one click purchase patent comes to mind in this case.
TiVo's major patent (the timewarp one) does have a specifically process of separating the video and audio into separate files and time tagging both files to make seeking in them easier. Whether that could be considered "obvious" back in 1999 when it was filed is up to interpretation. -- The Comcast Disney Avatar has been retired. |
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