 JohnInSJPremium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA
 ·PHONE POWER
 ·Comcast
| Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model Yay, another bailout from consumers... we should all subsidize Netflix.
How about Netflix charges enough money to pay for peering at the rate they actually use, and then their customers pay for their usage, and not everyone else?
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My place : »www.schettino.us | |
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 | | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model Netflix needs to STFU as this is a complaint from the consumer's side and not Netflix's side. It's not caps they are worried about, it's their bottom line. ISP have run into a problem where there is increased demand on their networks which means increased spending to maintain and expand their networks. The problem is that the market won't really allow for the increased revenue to cover these costs. So they found a way around it and the ones that created the initial demand are now crying foul.
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I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company. | |
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 ·Windstream
| Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model Most non-wireless ISPs aren't charging for bandwidth that goes over cap - they merely "threaten" to shut off the connection. So there goes the point about them somehow gaining extra revenue.
Sure, there are extra costs, but ISPs are already charging an arm and a leg for subscribing in the first place. If a frown were to be put on the faces of investors for a quarter or two a year, then maybe some lines and equipment could be upgraded?
If companies want bandwidth caps, then all data that goes across that connection should count towards the cap. Plain and simple, bits are bits. There shouldn't be any "special" services that don't count towards it.
It's a valid complaint. | |
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| | | | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model Your not going to convince Battle of anything as he is one of those that would need to frown for a quarter or two to improve the company's network. The only future he cares about concerning a company is stock price for the here and now as he can bail any other time.
Regardless of all that, all of these companies make lots of money and can certainly invest in improving their networks to avoid the bandwidth congestion that they are yet to prove they have and won't for "competitive reasons" (which is a farce). In addition, these companies have been paid many times over to upgrade their networks and they typically pocket a vast majority of the money and invest a little. Even if they double their prices and we are all idiot enough to pay it, they would still only make incremental improvements to remain "competitive" while delivering major dividends. Any other action would have their stock jockeys and board members crying foul. | |
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|  LinklistPremium
join:2002-03-03
Longport, NJ
kudos:5 | said by battleop:Netflix needs to STFU as this is a complaint from the consumer's side and not Netflix's side. It's not caps they are worried about, it's their bottom line. ISP have run into a problem where there is increased demand on their networks which means increased spending to maintain and expand their networks. The problem is that the market won't really allow for the increased revenue to cover these costs. So they found a way around it and the ones that created the initial demand are now crying foul.
Yes, always lots of whining on here about ISPs not adapting their business plans to reality. So ISPs do that thru caps and overages, and tiers. And now that content companies(like Netflix) that drove those changes are crying foul because THEY don't like having to adjust THEIR business plans. What goes around comes around. | |
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| | brad
join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model said by Linklist:Yes, always lots of whining on here about ISPs not adapting their business plans to reality. So ISPs do that thru caps and overages, and tiers. And now that content companies(like Netflix) that drove those changes are crying foul because THEY don't like having to adjust THEIR business plans. What goes around comes around.
Caps and overages have ZERO to do with cost covering and everything to do with protecting legacy video and the lack of any real competition. Notice Comcast can deliver their services with no caps on the same network segment (the last mile) that supposedly needs traffic management and yet caps in reality do not do anything for network traffic management and just gouge the customer. | |
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| | | | And tell us oh wise one.... how should Netflix change their business plan to accommodate a competitor whom also controls the delivery mechanism? | |
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| | | LinklistPremium
join:2002-03-03
Longport, NJ
kudos:5 | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model said by Skippy25:And tell us oh wise one.... how should Netflix change their business plan to accommodate a competitor whom also controls the delivery mechanism?
Well, they could deliver movies by mail. Oh wait, they didn't like that business plan because costs were a little bit more than getting ISPs to carry most of the costs of internet delivery. Now Internet delivery's real costs are becoming apparent they are upset. Too bad!! | |
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| | | | | | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model That was not a valid answer to my question.
I guess they could also start delivering them with pigeons too to avoid mail delivery cost too? Man your wisdom certainly surprises me!
While we are going through the backward progression worm hole why don't we start using 2400baud modems for our "broadband"? | |
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| | | | | | | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model It's a very valid point. Neflix bitched about that too. Anything that does not fit in THEIR business model is going to be called anti-competitive...
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I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company. | |
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| | | | | | | | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model They may have complained about the cost, but they certainly did not try to get around paying it, so no it is not a valid point. | |
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| | | | rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO | That's an interesting version of history. I thought NetFlix was highly successful with the DVD mailing strategy. In fact, I thought that's what made the company. I thought they adapted their business plan to streaming video because of MSO VOD competition and that's what their subscribers wanted. | |
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| | | | | For starters they could peer with ISPs and work with them to cache content on their networks.
BTW my statements are from the standpoint of smaller network operator and not from that of a mega huge operator.
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I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company. | |
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| | | | | | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model Or the ISP's can work with them to cache their content to reduce the load they are complaining about.
It works both ways and would benefit both companies, the ISP more so. I am sure as you say that you want NetFlix to pay to have it cached (use of bandwidth) and pay for the hardware. I say, no. If the ISP wants to relieve itself of the NF burden then it should provide the hardware and do a handshake with NF or suffer the consequences of their customers demand for NF goods. Or maybe that ISP can just ban the use of NF and relieve itself that way. | |
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| | | | | | | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model "Or the ISP's can work with them to cache their content to reduce the load they are complaining about."
Netflix won't do this. There have been several WISPs that have approached Netflix about doing this and they won't do it.
I don't see why the ISP should buy the bandwidth and hardware just so Netflix can reach the ISP's customers. If Akamai and other CDN are willing to do this for free then Netflix should to.
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I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company. | |
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| | | | | | | | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model Of course you dont see why the ISP should, your that ISP arent you?
Assuming so, it is your customers that want the product and you should accommodate your customers or they go elsewhere. However, I am sure you are in a monopolistic position with your customers so you dont believe you have to meet their needs.
I dont know why Netflix wont, but I would imagine it probably has to do with the content owners more than Netflix not wanting their material cached somewhere. Also, being a WISP I would imagine you are more concerned with the wireless between you and your customer how would caching anything at your end help reduce the load on the wireless to your customer?
There is hardware you can put between your router and your network that will cache for you regardless of what Netflix wants. We installed Riverbeds in all of our local offices when we centralized all of our file servers in one location. Though I speak out of ignorance on these devices as I had nothing to do with setting them up but I do know it caches files pulled off the central servers. | |
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| | | | | | | | | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model I don't serve residential customers so Netflix is not something that is on our radar.
I have done work for a couple of WISPs where this is on their radar. Contrary to what you believe not all ISPs are making billions in profits. If you are a small guy the costs of what you propose would put the majority of the smaller operators in the red.
As I have said many times before my view points are from the smaller operator's point of view where the don't make billions in profits and don't have lots of shareholders to prop up.
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I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company. | |
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model I understand that. Your smaller operators are there to serve the needs of their customers and it is THEIR obligation to meet their customers needs. There is obviously a cost associated with them meeting those needs which they may or may not be able to meet profitably. However, that is their problem not NetFlix, Hulu, NBC, xBox Live or any other internet enabled product that their consumers may want.
"Your smaller operators are there to serve the needs of their customers and it is THEIR obligation to meet their customers needs." - It amazes me how companies seem to forget that little statement which is fundamental to their existence. Contrary to the more popular belief that they are only there to take money from whomever is willing to give it to them. | |
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model "and it is THEIR obligation to meet their customers needs."
That is my original point. It's the ISP's obligation to meet the CUSTOMER's needs not Netflix's needs. Netflix should lobby the end user to lobby the ISP, not lobby the government to make the ISP's meet Netflix's needs.
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I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company. | |
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model No you have it ass backwards, the user should lobby their ISP to meet their desire to get the content they want. Netflix only needs to stand on the corner advertising their product and creating desire for their product. It is the ISP's responsibility to meet their consumers needs no matter how you try to twist it.
It is whining to the government because the monopolistic nature of how it's product is delivered is being compromised by monopolistic companies that are trying to protect their turf and revenues. That is exactly what they should do and what the government agencies are there for. | |
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model "No you have it ass backwards, the user should lobby their ISP to meet their desire to get the content they want"
Seems like I keep saying that. The ISP should cater to their customers needs and not Netflx's needs. If the demand does not include Netflx's needs then tough.
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I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company. | |
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model So we agree that ISP's should not try to use caps and overages to prevent over the top video services from succeeding because their customers want it?
I could have sworn you were supporting caps to prevent too much viewing and supported NetFlix "compensating" ISP's in the form of paying them directly or providing them hardware to ease the ISP's pain of providing service to their customers. I must be confused. | |
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model I personally don't care about caps one way or another because they don't fit into our business model. At home I could care less if I hit any caps because I do the bulk of any serious downloading from the office where I have 1Gb to my laptop fed with 10G links to the internet.
I don't support caps but for some providers (small ISP / WISP) it's needed to offset the rising costs to deliver services to rural areas. What Netflix is crying about is that they think that ISPs should not be allow to cap users or charge overages. It's the ISP's network and they should be allowed to make decisions based on what fits into the ISPs business plan and not Netflix's business plan.
Netflix needs to remember that the ISP's network belongs to the ISP and that they make the decisions not Netflix. If Netflix want's their business model to coexist with the ISP's business model than Netflix should be willing to work with the ISP. The ISP's duty is to satisfy their customer not Netflix.
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I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company. | |
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model I see. So you are OK with some ISP's having caps, but only if their entire infrastructure is inferior and they need them to stay profitable.
In that case, you want the Netflixs of the world to accommodate the inferior networks that WISP (your example) provide because the only thing that is important to the WISP is that they are able to give their customers an IP address so they can get on the internet and thus they are "satisfied customers".
Just out of curiosity though... when the ISP's customer can't use a service like Netflix because of caps or poor network infrastructure (WISP) whom should they complain to: Netflix or ISP?
You clearly would say Netflix because they need to accommodate the ISP. I say the ISP because they need to accommodate the customer. | |
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model I don't like the idea of caps BUT if that's how an ISP/WISP wants to run their network it's their right.
"the inferior networks that WISP"
It appears you have no idea how a rural ISP (or WISP) really works. There are technical limitations because of the limited spectrum plus it's often ungodly expensive to get bandwidth to these network.
"when the ISP's customer can't use a service like Netflix because of caps or poor network infrastructure (WISP) whom should they complain to: Netflix or ISP?"
The ISP.
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I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company. | |
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model In a truly competitive market I would agree they have a right to run the network however they want. However, being there are virtually no truly competitive markets in the US they shouldn't get that right.
Yes I know how a WISP works and I understand there are technical limitations. Those limitations are quite great which is why WISP are quite inferior to wired networks. | |
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| | | | | | | | | | I understand that. Your smaller operators are there to serve the needs of their customers and it is THEIR obligation to meet their customers needs. There is obviously a cost associated with them meeting those needs which they may or may not be able to meet profitably. However, that is their problem not NetFlix, Hulu, NBC, xBox Live or any other internet enabled product that their consumers may want.
"Your smaller operators are there to serve the needs of their customers and it is THEIR obligation to meet their customers needs." - It amazes me how companies seem to forget that little statement which is fundamental to their existence. Contrary to the more popular belief that they are only there to take money from whomever is willing to give it to them. | |
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| |  skeechanAi OtsukaholicPremium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2 | Let the MSOs prove there is a widespread last mile capacity crunch then. Otherwise it is to defend their video revenues. | |
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| | | | | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model "Otherwise it is to defend their video revenues."
No shit.... I think it's anti-competivie that Papa-John's will not bring me a Pizza Hut Pizza...
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I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company. | |
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| | | | skeechanAi OtsukaholicPremium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2 | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model When I'm paying for the car they should be bringing me anything I want. | |
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| | | | |  tshirtPremium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:3 | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model There are services that will do that, but the cost is substanially above hertz, or avis, or budget.
You can get what ever you want, but maybe not from the common providers who sell a cheaper 1 size fits all type plans. | |
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| | | | | | skeechanAi OtsukaholicPremium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Cox HSI
 ·Clear Wireless
| Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model No, it's like Hertz saying I can only take the car I pay for to hotels owned by them, unless I only want to take a nap, then they don't care where I go.
Problem is MSOs can't compete on their merits of their own services. They have to resort to inferring with the competitors instead of developing innovative services of their own. | |
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| | | | | | | tshirtPremium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:3 | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model So you've discontinued that worthless Cox service, right? | |
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| | | | | | | | skeechanAi OtsukaholicPremium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Cox HSI
·Clear Wireless
| Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model Cox doesn't charge overage fees nor do they traffic shape my Netflix service. If they ever do, yes, I will be gone taking my triple play dollars elsewhere. I don't need to pay $65/mo for HSI service I can't use. I can get $20 DSL if I want to check my email. | |
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| | | | | | | You are paying for the Pizza not the car. | |
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| | | | | | | | Re: Netflix Wants Goverment Help To Prop Up Its Business Model said by battleop:You are paying for the Pizza not the car.
when was the last time you ordered pizza?
there is a delivery charge. and if you're not an asshole you tip the driver.
ISPs have more in common with a service like "justeat.ca" where they deliver food (read data) from a wide variety of places that offer takeout.
the comparison is stupid anyway.
ISPs shouldn't be allowed to pick and choose what content to deliver to their customers. | |
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