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 kleemanAustralian Expat
join:2000-07-29
Nyack, NY
kudos:1 | reply to Steve
Re: Linus Torvalds Flips The Bird To NVIDIA Blackened cookware anyone?  | |
| reply to Steve
said by Steve:
Please raise your hand if you were struck by the irony of Tux taking somebody else to task for ineffective methods of open source advocacy...
There is no irony...
"ineffective" is in your view....if you think that the method Linus used is "effective," well , put politely, not a chance.
You can not berate OEM/ODM/corporate/suit/lawsleaer types it is not effective, period.
Its time to move on with this demand that everything is open source. In a perfect world that might happen. We live in a far from perfect world. As in a perfect world NDA, IP, trademark, copyright, tradedress and crap would not exist either.
So lets review the situation . . . . .
Lets just say for sake of arugument... The nVidia WonderVideoCard is developed and released... nVidia needs to develop drivers for this device on OS's, so they are looking at what OS(s) to support....Looking around they see various issues in regards to Linux support and decide to just say forget it.
No Linux support for our device(s), period. Ever!
OK... so the community will develop drivers... really how are you going to do that with out specifications? Reverse engineer it. Sure, but that takes time... Example: Kodak AIO printers and c2esp... it took years after the release and eventual fading away of Kodak printers in the market for the most part (and Kodak itself!), but it was done. Now do you think Jane User is going to wait around for this? NO WAY!
So what it boils down to is "Do we want the OEM/ODM(s) to support Linux or not?" YES, BUT ONLY UNDER OUR TERMS! This is a give and take! And this viewpoint is all ONE WAY, TAKE, with NO GIVE!
I would much rather have my devices SUPPORTED on Linux, than no support at all! Maybe thats not important to you...only open source above all is important.... Well thats not helping Linux adoption.
But...but...but the OEM/ODM(s) are not providing the specifications! YOUR ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! Or they require NDA or some other BS which makes developing an open source driver impossible..... I am absolutely NO FAN OF NDA or any of the other ilk I mentioned above. Look at the mess the RaspPi has with this NDA mess,added on to other issues (not related to this topic).
How to get the OEM/ODM(s) to release the FULL SPECIFICATION so the community can develop a driver? Well one thing is for sure, tellomg them "!@!*$&!*(& YOU!" Is NOT the way! I don't have the answer to that as proven by nVidia they don't get it. (See articles in re chinese project where nVidia wanted an NRE, and possibly releated to this tirade, I am not sure its entirely the cause, but added to optimus nonsense it didn't help I am sure).
In lieu of a specification nVidia release their own closed OEM driver. OH MY GAWD THE WORLD IS ENDING!    It supports their devices in a timely manner for Jane User to go to newegg or worstbuy or where ever and get hardware and use it on Linux with out too much fuss on their part, mostly. While this is not the optimum perfect world solution it really doesn't differ from the way things work for another (alleged) OS. So why the uproar and poor attitude.. We WANT DRIVERS ONLY IF WE GET THE DRIVER, THE SOURCE CODE, THE SPECIFICATION(S), A Unicorn, a Pot of gold, 3 wishes from the genie... ENOUGH! GEEEEZZZZZUSSSSS!
No! Its not the "perfect world" solution... but telling users that use the OEM driver it taints their kernel, and we won't accept your bug reports because of it, and telling OEM/ODM(s) "!$&!*!()&* YOU!" is the way!?!?!??? REALLY? ?
Its time that the children of Linux, starting with Linus start to accept some reality and develop some better business acumen. And this is where I call them out from Linus to the idiot wayturd, to the idiocy of the compiz author.. YOU PEOPLE are not helping Linux support from OEM/ODM(s)!
You betcha I give Dell, and others an earful when they do things I disapprove, its called customer feedback. Doesn't matter if its computer or Ford (stupid selling Land Rover, Jaguar, ending Escape Hybrid, not releasing UK/EU models in the US which are far better, GM (Vauxhall) as the same problem) And its done in a manner thats polite and business like. It breaks down why I didn't purchase their product and what it cost them... ie Dell it cost you $xxxx dollars since you didn't have and AMD processor system... so I purchased from HP/Compaq instead who had an AMD processor with nVidia graphics.
I also don't purchase products from companies who are entirely Linux hostile. I tell them such and how just one person can control much more than that! A lot of my personal purchases will translate into large corporate/agency purchase(s) so just because you think your dealing with Jane User, it may cost you more down the road. I buy for myself, test it to death and then it gets "Penguinista Approved!" for my agency(s)/client(s).
I used to be far tolerant and brush away many of the issues like this. I've used Linux since I got it on something like 30+ 3.5" discs shipped from some place in the EU.. Things changed when I switched completely and 100% to Linux about 7 years ago. I ran multiple systems for years before that. Thanks to the actions of one particular "software" company along with all the nonsense that sucks down performance to keep that "OS" (which probably has had more to drive hardware performance & imporvement than idiotic gaming!), hardware that was supported with out issue on Linux v. another "OS", etc... I had enough! I've not looked back and I went full Penguinista! (Yes thats a play on that term from the fashion world and those commercials for a US retailer. )
Yes, COST plays in to this. YEAHHAHAWWWW FREE SOFTWARE! You add up $400/PC for office productivity software x 100's/1000's and you see I can purchase more PC's or more hardware with that $$$. How open the software plays very little role in my use of Linux. First, I am not a C/C++ programmer, it bores me to death. I dabble in to deal with some projects am stuck with it... but its not interest... I learned to program at a much lower level, much lower, machine code for things like PDP8e's and 68HC11's and then moved on to Z80's, 6502, 6510...
There are problems on both sides of this... and you can trot out xyz and for the most part some of the poster childs of Linux OPEN support are really smoke and mirrors which have conned you! Example: crApTI Lets see they have features they REFUSE to spec out like hardware video decode etc.. Where nVidia has supported this in their OEM driver with an API that developers can use, and have.
I call out the Linux Illuminatti because they are far more destructive to this situation than the OEM who is releasing driver(s) for Linux be it closed binary blob or open. Again, crApTI drivers are just that crap from the OEM and the community and you have A LOT OF SPEC data from crApTI to develop this thing.
Its time to get over this driver, source, speficiation, unicorn, gold, 3 wishes mentality and start to work in realstic terms to help Linux and not hurt it. | |
 yaplejPremium
join:2001-02-10
White City, OR | reply to FF4m3
I think that the response to the question was stemmed from frustration with NVidia as a whole not just in the area of video cards. Linus stated that NVidia is the worst company to deal with. You realize that NVidia makes more than just video cards. NVidia is making motherboard chips and all kinds of PC components that need Linux drivers written. Intel has been providing specifications for chipsets and even has developers writing open drivers to be included in the Linux kernel so Intel chips "just work".
Anyone remember trying to run Linux on a motherboard with an Nvidia IDE controller a few years back? Did Nvidia help develop the driver, publish specs so an open driver could be written or have their driver team submit a driver to the Linux kernel team? I think someone finally reverse engineered the thing to get it working.
Some of the ranting here seems to be aimed at pushing Linux to include closed source code when the entire idea behind Linux is open-ness.
Honestly its about time Linus gave Nvidia the bird back. They have been giving Linux the bird for a long time now.
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 leiboldPremium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:6
 ·SONIC.NET
| reply to TuxRaiderPen
said by TuxRaiderPen:But...but...but the OEM/ODM(s) are not providing the specifications! YOUR ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! Or they require NDA or some other BS which makes developing an open source driver impossible..... Locked up specifications are a problem for open source software in general but they are not an impossible obstacle for Linux. There is the Linux Driver Project which aims to match driver developers with manufacturers that don't have the resources to do their own driver development. Developers on the Linux Driver Project are able to sign an NDA as long as the resulting driver can be published under the terms of the GPLv2.
It is not a perfect solution because you limit the number of people working on a particular driver to a small group (perhaps even only one individual) instead of getting the benefit of a much larger group of qualified and interested developers. It is however a reasonable compromise that enables manufacturers to keep their trade secrets closely guarded and at the same time enable the use of their products in Linux (not a small market anymore).
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| reply to yaplej
said by yaplej:
I think that the response to the question was stemmed from frustration with NVidia as a whole not just in the area of video cards. Linus stated that NVidia is the worst company to deal with. You realize that NVidia makes more than just video cards.
Yes I do, thank you. Thats exactly what I look for in a mb when I build systems.
AMD CPU
nVidia chipsets
I don't condsider anything else.
Then I search up a decent nVidia video card.
I am a firm and loyal AMD (non crApTI) and nVidia supporter.
said by yaplej:
included in the Linux kernel so Intel chips "just work".
They may work but their performance and cost leave a lot to be desired when you can get better performance at a cheaper price with AMD/nVidia.
said by yaplej:
Anyone remember trying to run Linux on a motherboard with an Nvidia IDE controller a few years back? Did Nvidia help develop the driver, publish specs so an open driver could be written or have their driver team submit a driver to the Linux kernel team? I think someone finally reverse engineered the thing to get it working.
I don't remember the issue... but in 2012 Jane User doesn't give a whip about it, and is NOT going to program a resolution.
said by yaplej:
Some of the ranting here seems to be aimed at pushing Linux to include closed source code when the entire idea behind Linux is open-ness.
I and 99% of the rest of the users DO NOT CARE, period. Software is software! We/they install it and move on to GET THINGS DONE. The software or hardware just has to work period. Again they are not going to do any programming.
This is why Linux adoption in the home still is at low levels. Its time to make a decision.. Is the Linux community interested in erradicating that other "OS" or continue in a niche area which will lead to less and less Linux support from OEM/ODM's in the future.. we've hit a peak and UEFI will be the point which can kill things or bring things OUR WAY. ms is about to do the same crap that KDE 4.x did partially, and gnome did whole hog and fubar the interface on the DE... So users will be looking for ways to keep going in the way they have now and that can be on Linux using KDE 4.7+ for some, possibly something else like LXDE or XFCE for others...
If Linux wants to continue in the niche server area, advanced animation, effects render farms, science etc.. fine... but if you want Jane User.. hardware thats available at the local megamart has to work by plugging it in. Example, ANY one who asks me is told to purchase an HP device be it AIO, printer or scanner. HPLIP makes this so brain dead easy 99.9999% of the time to use. Why... because if they are my client they are using Linux and I install HPLIP by default in my installs whether they have a HP device when I start or not. Most start over and get nice HP device... A nice $100 AIO 4050W from the local megamart does fine for Jane.
said by yaplej:
Honestly its about time Linus gave Nvidia the bird back. They have been giving Linux the bird for a long time now.
And how would that be? They provide drivers for their video cards, maybe not for anything else, but their video drivers provides more than your poster child for open crApTI who refuses to provide info on certain portions of hardware decoding, and according to a beta tester their driver has code for it, but won't turn it on or document it...
Your not going to get source, so don't bother to mention it... specs.. I agree they should provide this ala those old chip data books I used to have line my walls...
Could nVidia do better? SURE. I think they all could.. but this situation is not going to turn out good for Linux in the end.
And this is not the method to entice any OEM/ODM to do better. | | |
|
 SteveI know your IP addressConsultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
kudos:5 | said by TuxRaiderPen: I and 99% of the rest of the users DO NOT CARE, period. Software is software! We/they install it and move on to GET THINGS DONE. Best argument for using Windows I've seen in a long time | |
| In a few years there will be nobody to flip a bird at.. | |
| reply to FF4m3
NVIDIA Wants To Be A Better Linux Patron by Michael Larabel - June 24, 2012:
It's been an interesting week for NVIDIA with Torvalds speaking quite negatively of NVIDIA, NVIDIA PR's fluffy response, and their recent loss of a huge order due to not having an open-source driver / MIPS port. However, NVIDIA Linux engineers are hoping to be better Linux patrons.
As was shown earlier this week on the Linux kernel summit mailing list, Stephen Warren of NVIDIA is even willing to discuss at the August event how NVIDIA can better engage with the Linux development community. His main points:
Within the constraints I have, what should I and perhaps other NVIDIA employees be contributing to in the kernel? In a Google+ comment, Linus noted that we have mainly been contributing patches for Tegra SoC infra-structure details. I'm curious what other areas people might expect me/NVIDIA to contribute to. I assume the issue is mainly the lack of open support for the graphics-related parts of our HW, but perhaps there's some expectation that we'd also start helping out some core area of the kernel too? Would that kind of thing help our image even if we didn't open up our HW? And: Are there any new/novel ideas I could take back to NVIDIA to help persuade any kind of opening up? I'd be happy to feed anything interesting up the chain. As I've written in previous articles, it's not that the NVIDIA Linux engineers are secret Windows fans who really hate open-source and Linux or anything along those lines, but rather they're doing their best but are effectively bound by upper-management and other factions at NVIDIA. All of the NVIDIA Linux engineers I've communicated with over the years have really been doing their best to support Linux. NVIDIA's binary Linux graphics driver is top-notch, their team also supports the shared FreeBSD and Solaris drivers, the Tegra Linux support is great, VDPAU is an open API, and NVIDIA Linux engineers occasionally submit upstream X.Org patches against the xorg-server, RandR, etc. NVIDIA's Linux engineers have even bought graphics cards themselves to send over for Linux reviews at Phoronix. NVIDIA PR has had no interest in seeing Linux reviews on their products, etc. They've just played games with me for years and never delivered. | |
| reply to Steve
said by Steve:
Best argument for using Windows I've seen in a long time I don't see any humour in that, nor do I seen anything that makes that any kind of statement support use of that cruft. | |
davePremium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8 | reply to FF4m3
Yeah, yeah, all this nVidia stuff is amusing, but no-one commented on the really weird part: Torvalds says "Raspberry pee-eye".
I've never heard it pronounced, but surely from the written form, it's "Raspberry Pie". I mean, "pee-eye" coupled with "raspberry" makes no sense, but there are in fact pies that are raspberry. Saying "raspberry pee-eye" is like saying "apple emm-ay-see". | |
 markofmayhemWhy not now?Premium
join:2004-04-08
Pittsburgh, PA
kudos:5
 ·Comcast
| said by dave:Yeah, yeah, all this nVidia stuff is amusing, but no-one commented on the really weird part: Torvalds says "Raspberry pee-eye".
I've never heard it pronounced, but surely from the written form, it's "Raspberry Pie". I mean, "pee-eye" coupled with "raspberry" makes no sense, but there are in fact pies that are raspberry. Saying "raspberry pee-eye" is like saying "apple emm-ay-see".
vi is vee-eye... unix habits die hard?
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