how-to block ads
|
|
Share Topic
 |
 |
|
|
Reviews:
 ·Charter
| reply to fiberguy
Re: . said by fiberguy:said by Chubbysumo:said by JasonOD :Bottom line, companies need to be able to control their business. If they overstep, the market will punish them.
The shills have come. If there is no other competition, the incumbents can get away with whatever they want, because they know the customers have no where to go to. So let's get this on record.. anyone who disagrees with YOUR view or opinion is automatically a shill? Nice logic there buddy. What you're REALLY saying is that YOU are right, there is no other way of looking at something, and anyone who disagrees with you is a shill or fully supports a companies policy. You know what that's called? Being extreme, or an extremist. Let's not forget some examples of extremists.. 9/11? Oh, but of course, that's totally different, right?  An extremist is an extremist. The customer, as you are talking about here, doesn't HAVE to have a place to go.. that's a flaw in your logic. Your parents and grandparents should be disgraced by your logic. You know what they did when they didn't like something? ... they boycotted and went with out to prove their point. But not you, not this generation.. they turn to the givernment to fix everything for them in this entitled world in which we now seem to live in. See, you live in a world where people feel they are entitled to anything they want and that the government will ensure that. The fact is that you're living in a world where business has done an EXCELLENT job of getting you to love the products they sell. Instead of fighting for government intervention, why don't you spend your time getting your friends to cancel their service.. why don't you rally people to cut their cords and go with out.. ... you won't. By the way, you need to spend some time on the topic of a shill.. you, yourself, are not immune to being a "shill" as well... you're just shilling for a different view. A shill is a shill.. so instead of trying to point your dirty finger at someone else for their views, and nothing more, why don't you come to the table with something of substance.. because technically you're not JUST a shill, you're also a troll. Well, if there were options here, I would happily switch providers for ISP. The problem is that they charge nearly exactly the same per advertised MBPS that it almost feels like price fixing(i would call it price fixing, since they offer near the exact same thing for the same price). I cant just simply shut it off, as half of my income comes from internet related activities. Im in the boat that many are in. The internet has now become essential to their livelihood. I dont feel entitled to get it for free, but I do feel that we should pay a fair rate for access. With no regulation and no competition, the rates have gone up, and only up, for access. I have cut as much of the TV as I could(that my wife could stand). Basic+expanded is a ripoff, since there is exactly 5 channels we watch, yet, for those 5 channels, we subsidize the other crappy ones. Sure, we can supplement this with netflix and amazon and redbox, but at what point do you have to say "this is fucking stupid." The current gravy train is running out of tracks, the incumbents know it too. The content creators know it, and are continually trying to slow it down. Cable channels a-la-mode would weed out the crappy content and channels(and lower your bill, since your only paying the subscriber fees for the channels you want), and regulation in the ISPs would likely create competition and lower all of our bills. Only shills would say anything close to the opposite, because even my mom(who is 63 years old) sees that the TV and internet companies are grossly overcharging and need a slap. | |
fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | You don't NEED television.. it is, and always will, remain a luxury. The essential part of television remains a free service over the air, and the price for the local tier is still largely kept low for subscribers who want tier 1.
As for internet, the price of internet, since the beginning of broadband to the masses, has actually gone DOWN.. internet access in general has dropped. I'm sorry that people like Karl would like you to believe otherwise, but the over all cost has gone down.
Regardless of the fact that the internet has become essential.. it's become that way because you let it. And, as I stated already, having the access in your HOME is still a luxury as well. You could easily go to a library or other place where public internet is available and gain access. For that "essential" part of life.. what is it? email? booking tickets? (can be done over the phone, you just pay a fee) accessing banking? (not really necessary) sending an email? (dial up still works for that) chatting? (same thing, dial up works) Accessing streaming video? (That's entertainment and not essential)
But as for internet,.. I have a very simple, and very consistent response to pricing and reasonable/fair rate.. what is fair to you? Everyone will differ on this. I know people that still believe that a value meal should be under $5.00. The telephone was deemed "essential" years ago, and even under government regulation, the cost to the use the phone still is higher than the internet is today. People got $150.00 telephone bills all the time.. the internet still remains circa $50 a month. For that $50 a month, you can connect multiple computers, you get a decent speed and you get access to all those "essential" things you say you need. I can play number games with you all day long. Dial up internet used to cost on average of $24.95 a month for 33.6 speeds and one computer.. that also tied up a phone line so many people purchased a second phone line at a cost of about $25 a month or more. I really think that, so far, that $50 a month is looking great!
Looking at the importance you place on that internet line.. you yourself are saying it's "essential".. so you're not willing or able to see $50 as being fair?? that very $50 internet connection connects you to SOOOO many things that "save you money"... right? With out that internet your monthly expenses could go up!! Turn off the internet and see how "convenient" it is to book Arline tickets.. see how "convenient" it is to access your banking information. I mean you could do like many Americans do and reconcile your bank statement once a month... if you were taking responsibility in your finances you would not NEED to know your account activity every single day.. you'd keep a ledger like you're supposed to, right? So yea, that convenience is worth something. I mean, I could go on but it's not necessary.
The only thing that I ever hear from people is that they think the internet is "too expensive"... sounds to me that you just BELIEVE that because it's important that it should be cheaper, or as you call it, "more fair"... The internet still remains to be one of the least expensive and most valued service in the home compared to other services for what you get. So tell me, if you can't afford the $50 a month, is there someting wrong with the level of your income? ... perhaps you need to make personal changes in your life and your expenses to make that $50 less impacted.
If the internet cost $100 a month, I'd be bitching.. but I for one realize what the internet does for me and *I* see that $50 is pretty fair.
But, with any argument you have for the television side, I'm just not the one to have a conversation with on that matter because I will NEVER agree with anyone on that front as the satellite channels are not essential to life.. entertainment is a choice you get to make, no different that going to Disney Land vs the State Fair... or going to a Prime time movie vs the 2nd run Matinee.. or going to Mannie's Steak house, or The Sizzler. You need to live with in your means. Don't like the price of satellite based television, then don't subscribe to it... | |
Reviews:
·Charter
| said by fiberguy:You don't NEED television.. it is, and always will, remain a luxury. The essential part of television remains a free service over the air, and the price for the local tier is still largely kept low for subscribers who want tier 1.
Your right, I dont need television, and OTA is still free, but that isn't for me( i hardly watch it). There are two people in this household, and if we had good reception for OTA, i would go with that and an OTT option. Sadly, we dont get good reception, so we are either stuck with online offerings only, or we have to pay the cable or teleco for their "basic" tier. I dont know if you know this, but charters "basic" tier here is $45 per month after all the bullshit "taxes and fees", so I dont know about you, but thats pretty expensive for something they(charter) picks up on the cheap to rebroadcast.
said by fiberguy:As for internet, the price of internet, since the beginning of broadband to the masses, has actually gone DOWN.. internet access in general has dropped. I'm sorry that people like Karl would like you to believe otherwise, but the over all cost has gone down.
The overall cost to the ISP has gone way down, but they have not passed that on to the subscribers. When an ISP pays only a few cents per GB of data transfered in and out of its network, yet they charge me $100 per month for 100mbps service, with a 500GB cap, we know that their actual costs are long since covered past $40(double the cost of the raw data). My bill has only gone up, and the mbps prices have stayed nearly the same(only going down a few cents over the last 3 years). No, I dont need 100mbps download, but I do need the 5mbps upload, and I refuse to pay the outrageous prices for some of their business class tiers with faster upload speeds. The bottom line, is that they continue to charge more and more. In a market where real competition exists, prices usually end up just above the "break even" point to draw subs in. They are way above(probably close to 200% or more above) that point.
said by fiberguy:Regardless of the fact that the internet has become essential.. it's become that way because you let it. (snip) For that "essential" part of life.. what is it? email? booking tickets? (can be done over the phone, you just pay a fee) accessing banking? (not really necessary) sending an email? (dial up still works for that) chatting? (same thing, dial up works) Accessing streaming video? (That's entertainment and not essential) You need to get your head out of your ass. The internet was made for people to work, and thus, i use it that way. I make contracted calls(solicited, not cold calling telemarketing). I have to log into an online system(our dialer), and it calls my phone. If I did not have internet access, I would not be making $20 per hour, and would have lost out on that opportunity. It requires at least 1mbps upload speed because of the way it works. My other job also lists internet access as "optional, but highly recommended". I would attest, that its far from optional, its a must. Sure, I have my leisure time on the net, but you seem to think(and im guessing all you do is leisure, and no work on the internet) that all the time spent on the net is for pleasure. The internet was made for work, and it is used that way every day by millions of people. To many of us, it has become "essential" to our income, and thus, our way of life.
said by fiberguy:But as for internet,.. I have a very simple, and very consistent response to pricing and reasonable/fair rate.. what is fair to you? Everyone will differ on this. (snip, for length)I really think that, so far, that $50 a month is looking great!
$50 is not a great price, unless your speeds are high and your connection comes with no cap(or a reasonable one). As I said before, ISPs are paying between 1 and 3 cents per GB of data they transfer. This includes all labor, and equipment costs. So, if your on a 30mbps plan, with a 250GB cap, The ISPs costs should be covered after $10 per month, yet many charge $30-45 or more for 30mbps service. Its even worse with legacy DSL, which can cost $30 per month for 3mbps service and a cap. Please tell me you dont see the current prices as fair, because they are far from it. The current prices are becuase they can, and have no real compeition to undercut them(almost no ISP in the USA competes on "price" anymore).
said by fiberguy:Looking at the importance you place on that internet line.. you yourself are saying it's "essential".. so you're not willing or able to see $50 as being fair?? that very $50 internet connection connects you to SOOOO many things that "save you money"... right?(snip)So yea, that convenience is worth something. I mean, I could go on but it's not necessary.
The convienience is nice, and is worth something, but its not worth that much. Sure, if that $50 got me a stellar connection(like what I have now or more), than I would be happy with that. The problem is that with no real competition, the ISPs and cable and telecos know they can charge whatever they want and get away with it, because there is no where their customers can run to.
said by fiberguy:The only thing that I ever hear from people is that they think the internet is "too expensive"... sounds to me that you just BELIEVE that because it's important that it should be cheaper,(snip) ... perhaps you need to make personal changes in your life and your expenses to make that $50 less impacted.
Going on personal attacks shows that you have no logical arguments to discredit or refute my points. Its an expense, and it was factored into my budget long ago. BTW, my internet bill isn't just $50, its a little over $100 after all of their bullshit taxes and fees(internet is not taxable where i live, yet there is still a "tax" listed on my bill that charter refuses to remove). I don't know what that $50 is getting you, but that will vary wildly throughout the country right now. In some markets, $50 will get you 100mbps symmetrical, and in other markets, $50 will get you 1mbps DSL. So, what exactly is that $50 getting you?
said by fiberguy:If the internet cost $100 a month, I'd be bitching.. but I for one realize what the internet does for me and *I* see that $50 is pretty fair.
Not everyones bill is the same, and even implying that shows that you have your head buried in the sand, or are an industry shill. So, what service do you get for this $50 per month? 1mbps, or 100mbps, or something in between? Put it out there so we all can see how much "value" you get out of it.
said by fiberguy:But, with any argument you have for the television side, I'm just not the one to have a conversation with on that matter because I will NEVER agree with anyone on that front as the satellite channels are not essential to life.. entertainment is a choice you get to make, no different that going to Disney Land vs the State Fair... or going to a Prime time movie vs the 2nd run Matinee.. or going to Mannie's Steak house, or The Sizzler. You need to live with in your means. Don't like the price of satellite based television, then don't subscribe to it...
Entertainment is a luxury(always will be), but its not the TV that I was really bitching about(besides the shitty channel bundling).
On the TV, The cablecos are pretty good about passing on costs directly with very little overhead there. I know that the content companies are to blame for the TV dilemmas, because they require certain channels to be bundled with certain other channels. I believe this needs to be stopped and investigated as anti-competitive, and if we did get a-la-mode TV choices, the shitty channels with no content and no subs with either adapt or die really fast, and it would increase the overall quality of the TV content we get these days(no good content, no subs). Not only that, but it would also reduce your bills dramatically, because instead of paying for a few hundred channels you dont watch and a few you do, you would only pay the per subscriber fees on channels you do watch. Sure, per sub fees would go up a little, but they wouldn't go up that much, because someone could simply dump the channel easily, and the fear of that would keep prices around the same as they are now.
Anything else you have to say? Please refute my posts with hard data and facts, not personal attacks, because that only shows that you have no logical arguments left to refute any of them with. | |
| I think you should get a T-1 or more for $400 a month and not have caps. If your going to be doing business, don't complain about NOT paying a business price. I can't even believe you are complaining while getting a 100Meg connection. That costs me $5,000 a month for a guaranteed connectionn at that speed!!!! I love the quotes about 1-3 cents also. You have no idea the costs to deliver the kind of speeds your are getting. NONE.
--
»www.wirelessdatanet.net | |
Reviews:
·Charter
| said by gunther_01:You have no idea the costs to deliver the kind of speeds your are getting. NONE.
» forum.suprbay.org/showthread.php?tid=90426» blogs.howstuffworks.com/2011/04/···cenario/» www.pcpro.co.uk/news/broadband/3···-of-dataThere is enough hard data out there to show and prove that ISPs are paying less than $0.05 per GB of data transferred. I can lost more, but all you really have to do is google it. The most expensive providers in the world pay around $0.19 per GB, while most in the US pay between $0.06 and $0.02 per GB transferred withing their last mile networks, and due to peering agreements, going outside their network usually doesnt cost them anything because they break even with the other ISPs and backbone providers. Having a gross markup of so much is just stupid. im paying about $0.20 per GB(if you figure the 500GB cap on the 100mbps tier), and my actual price of $87.99+taxes and fees(comes out to about $95). Seriously, you cant tell me that a 1000% markup is fair or necessary. Sure, I can see even a 200% markup(assuming $0.02 per GB costs for them for examples sake) for covering unexpected costs and line and plant upgrades, but paying over 1000% in any other business and you would be shitting bricks. What if gas companies started charging 1000% of their actual costs, would you consider that fair? The ISPs have very little costs per GB(with employees, line, and plant costs worked in). If any other kind of business tried to charge 1000% of their actual costs, they would either go out of business or get scrutinized for regulation. I say put ISPs under title 2 and regulate the hell out of them. We would all see priced drop, and more competition to drive them even lower. heck, we may even see a-la-mode tv choices. | |
| Please read my post again, and tell me if $5K a month for 100Mb equals your figures... The crap you are reading is just crap. But it does figure IMO. Once you have something, then people want to Bitch about it being to costly, and or make up reasons why they shouldn't have to pay for it. You won;'t be happy unless its $20 a month for unlimited guaranteed bandwidth.
Again, you have NO idea. Once you run an ISP, then talk to me.
--
»www.wirelessdatanet.net | |
Reviews:
·Charter
| said by gunther_01:Please read my post again, and tell me if $5K a month for 100Mb equals your figures... The crap you are reading is just crap. But it does figure IMO. Once you have something, then people want to Bitch about it being to costly, and or make up reasons why they shouldn't have to pay for it. You won;'t be happy unless its $20 a month for unlimited guaranteed bandwidth.
Again, you have NO idea. Once you run an ISP, then talk to me.
You didnt even read the articles, or any of my post, did you? I clearly stated how much charter is charging per GB, and also provided articles that explain(in great details, with sources) how much ISPs are paying per GB of data transferred, which includes everything from lines to labor. Maybe you should re-read my post instead of just spouting no info relevant to any of my claims. You obviously have no logical arguments to dispute anything I have said, but instead go on a personal attack. I believe that is called an Ad-hominem(see picture), an attempt to distract from the fact that you have no arguments to refute my central points. Industry shills at their best. Whats next, name calling? Again, you ignored my question: what would you do if gas companies started charging 1000% for gas just because they could, and with no ties to real world costs.
 | |
| I didn't need to read them, but I just did. The first one is blatently wrong in the first paragraph, so I stopped. The second, while giving good examples of cost and such, is NOT a typical ISP wireline system. Most cable co's can't move terabytes of data internally. DRAMATICALLY changing the priceing per GB and customer. The third is wrong as well, which includes at the bottom a member of an ISP association claiming otherwise aso.
Again, if you own and run an ISP (like I do) please don't be a troll with unfounded data, blog posts from people who also don't know a thing, and then try to turn it in to some personal battle because you "think" you do. So. Please tell me what a business class T-1 costs you. Or what you can get a business class, guaranteed bandwidth with no caps at for 100Meg?? Then please let us all know how much it costs. Then, and only then, will you have something to even remotely complain about. Trust me when I tell you, you won't like the numbers. Of course a business class cable modem connection isn't the same as a guaranteed business class, resellable connection. Which is what you actually need according to your claims of "having" to have it for work. It costs me $5k a MONTH Bud. That is of course out here in the boonies, and is much lower in metro areas. But that is mainly because you can tie in to a decent network pretty easily, and bandwidth is more accessible. Or at least to a tie in point where there are more options. Lets also keep in mind that a residintial connection is a shared non-guaranteed connection.
--
»www.wirelessdatanet.net | |
fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | reply to Chubbysumo
Yea... I can't even touch this one since I have better things to do.. but in short, I will say this..
If you're running a business, or "using it for work" then go pound that argument out in a business thread. If you're residential internet connection is letting you make an income, then pay for it like the rest of us working class do. I work from home and have Comcast Business Class. Oh, my bill is still just $59 a month.. seems pretty close to my $50 mark.
WHILE I'm at the $50 price,.. pull YOUR head out of YOUR ass... you do know what an average is don't you? .. or were you just too much in a rush to smell your own farts (your reply) to read? For the record, you are right.. not everyone's bills are the same.. Some people pay as little as $19 a month and some pay $69 a month. Seems like I was pretty spot on.. maybe high.. but there are many ways to make the average $50 bill a valid point.
You can sit here and argue the extreme exceptions all you want - all you are going to do is look like an idiot doing so. For the record, basic 1 is broadcast.. some places are pricey but that's what you get in some areas.
One last point even though I said I wouldn't.. but I could give a rats ass what the ISP pays for the connection.. you're not entitled to a % price markup on what they pay on the cost of the byte.. you're going to pay a RETAIL value.. not a cost mark up.. get it? Shall we talk about other costs associated with that internet connection such as fuel, vehicles, buildings, liability insurance, ass-hats who sue them because they don't like certain things? ... workman's comp insurance.. wages.. etc. Shall I go on? The BILL YOU GET has GONE DOWN as I said. When I got a 386/386 DLS line from Pacific Bell back in 1998, the price for that service was $120. (Perhaps you're not old enough to know that?) Since that time, the bill went down to $99 a month for 512/386 then it went to $79 for 1.5/386. From there I got a 256/256 line from US West for $79 (step back but better service) Then moved to cable and it pretty much became $59 for what ever by what ever.. then the speeds moved to 3mb, then 4, then 6, then 8, then 12, now 20. And still to this day I'm paying $59 a month. So AGAIN, WHERE did the price YOU pay for the internet, "go up"...
... stop the spinning, put down the talking points, stop arguing on an average while using an extreme situation and start answering honestly.
And I DO love your last line.. "Please refute my posts with hard data and facts, not personal attacks, because that only shows that you have no logical arguments left to refute any of them with." YOU haven't shown any "hard data and facts".. you've only come here and spewed your logic and tried to pass it off as fact. | |
fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | reply to Chubbysumo
"The ISPs have very little costs per GB(with employees, line, and plant costs worked in)."
You're totally clueless..
You're trying to base the cost per GB based on user consumption and compare that to fixed costs of providing a service and running a business?? Are you F'ing kidding me?
What's the overall cost % of payroll for one MSO compared to Gross sales? Any idea? Now, add in employer contributions.. then add in the cost of health care provided... add in the cost of vehicles & maintenance, power, fuel, uniforms, tools, training, gear, benefits,..
NOW, let's move on to the cost of buildings, maintenance, repairs, furniture, systems, IT, liability insurance, advertising, taxes,..and there's still MANY things I've left out.. I mean.. come on..
Let's talk about the length of time it actually takes from the time of installation to the time it takes before the company actually makes anything off that customer. (Hint, about 6 to 9 months depending on the services and the specific customer)
So YOU want to base these fixed asset/liabilities/expenses to that of what the user base uses per GB and what they're charged?
Seriously.. if you're having a hard time paying an average of $50 a month for an internet connection that connects multiple devices to the internet, gives you access to products and service options that you NEVER had before, added convenience in your own life.. saves you money over all,.. but DAMN if you have to pay an average of $50 for that connection. Who's being greedy now? Okay, maybe not greedy, but entitled.
I have a REAL small business and I'm not talking eBay.. I'm talking real business with employees and expenses, etc. I'm not sure what trivial information you're basing your arguments on but you're not anywhere near the ball park. What your entire argument is based on is a viewpoint and a skewed way of thinking.. and you STILL, like many, make the mistake that your precious internet line should be only marked up a % of what the cost is, and nothing more.. because to YOU, nothing else but that internet line exists. Well, you're wrong. | |
fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | reply to Chubbysumo
He runs a freakin' ISP bucko... what Charter is charged per ISP is none of your concern. It's what the market will accept. The value of that line is fine.. and no, I'm not a shill. (By the way, funny you tell me to not name call on your first message, but right out the bat you already called me a shill because my point, which is actually an intelligent one, doesn't agree with yours. You've got two people with industry AND business experience giving you hands on experience and YOU still sit here acting like mr. know it all.
I want to pay $5.00 for a 24 case of coke still, and I feel that the cost PER can of coke THEY pay is FAR less than what I'm charged.. perhaps Coca Cola needs to drop their prices too.. SCREW the fact that fuel costs have risen and that other expenses have gone up.. I don't care.. all those OTHER Expenses don't matter to me, the consumer, because *I* am only concerned about the price they pay for the ingredients that go into MY can of coke!
No need to post stupid graphics about what someone else may or may not say.. base your arguments on something factual and maybe you won't be blasted for it. | |
|
