| reply to etaadmin
Re: For the cable companies Cable TV has limits. 8 upstream is not possible with only so many channels below
54MHZ.
Where are they going to find more downstream channels? Hope cable TV has upgraded
their systems to 1GHZ not 750MHz. 1GHz leaves the systems with much shorter
drop lengths. All new 1GHZ systems will need new drops including ground or splitter
runs. Prewired homes will be a thing of the past. What about nearby high power licensed
two way or digital, it can wreck cable TV usage?
Also I hope they have a constant sweep crew to keep up with levels and main cables getting damaged and going bad. |
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| said by Nuts :Cable TV has limits. 8 upstream is not possible with only so many channels below
54MHZ.
Where are they going to find more downstream channels? Hope cable TV has upgraded
their systems to 1GHZ not 750MHz. 1GHz leaves the systems with much shorter
drop lengths. All new 1GHZ systems will need new drops including ground or splitter
runs. Prewired homes will be a thing of the past. What about nearby high power licensed
two way or digital, it can wreck cable TV usage?
Also I hope they have a constant sweep crew to keep up with levels and main cables getting damaged and going bad.
Cablelabs is looking to do a midsplit docsis 3.1 for more upstream channels. Also here on long island cablevision is already giving 8 downstreat channels to customers who have the modems to support it.
There is a lot of room left on hfc networks. Look up epoc ( looking for 10gigabit/10gigabit speeds on coax) and all the updates to docsis 3 that cablelabs wants to do. |
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 danclan
join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA | EPoC still requires them to cough up spectrum and to extend fiber closer the home in order to realize those speeds also I wouldn't hold your breath seeing on EPoC on any cable system any time soon.
Since any gear that supports it wont be available till they actually formalize and capture the requirements for the standard which might not even be completed for another 2 years....
So sure it sounds nice but FTTH still is king and cable is only playing catch up and in this case....catch with a wall.... |
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etaadmin
join:2002-01-17
Dallas, TX
kudos:1 | reply to Nuts
said by Nuts :Cable TV has limits. 8 upstream is not possible with only so many channels below
54MHZ.
Where are they going to find more downstream channels? Hope cable TV has upgraded
their systems to 1GHZ not 750MHz. 1GHz leaves the systems with much shorter
drop lengths. All new 1GHZ systems will need new drops including ground or splitter
runs. Prewired homes will be a thing of the past. What about nearby high power licensed
two way or digital, it can wreck cable TV usage?
Also I hope they have a constant sweep crew to keep up with levels and main cables getting damaged and going bad.
No system is perfect. If cable go all digital when cable go all digital there will be plenty channels available, it is just a matter of time before this happen.
Then there are new solutions to squeeze more bandwidth like extending HFC's range to 1.8GHz »adslm.dohrenburg.net/uverse/inde···Itemid=6
Then there is the mid-split and EPoC that majortom1029  mentioned in addition to CCAP.
There is plenty of life left and room to grow in HFC systems. |
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| reply to danclan
EPOC means ethernet protocol over coax
»www.lightreading.com/document.as···d=221264
"But there's a bit more to the agenda, as the vendors also have a vested interest in protecting their hold on the Docsis equipment market as other potential technical options begin to emerge, particularly EPON Protocol Over Coax (EPoC), an Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers Inc. (IEEE) standard in the works that's looking to bring PON-like performance to hybrid fiber/coax (HFC) networks. (See The Docsis Addendum and EPON-Over-Coax Starts Its Standards Journey .) "
If FTTH was king why did verizon stop the roll out? The problem is most people stop caring when speeds get to a certain point. Then they only care about price.
HFC networks can reach the speed where people stop caring and beat fios on price.
Example cablevisions 101/15 package is $100 and verizons 130/35 is $199 a month.
Verizon is just now moving speeds up to match cablevisions lower prices.
Current top of the line modems can match the speeds that fios is rolling out. Cablevision is already putting out 8 downstream channels to customers.I suspect they are only waiting till the end of the year when all of their service area is all digital to start upstream channel bonding. |
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etaadmin
join:2002-01-17
Dallas, TX
kudos:1 | reply to danclan
said by danclan:EPoC still requires them to cough up spectrum and to extend fiber closer the home in order to realize those speeds also I wouldn't hold your breath seeing on EPoC on any cable system any time soon.
Since any gear that supports it wont be available till they actually formalize and capture the requirements for the standard which might not even be completed for another 2 years....
So sure it sounds nice but FTTH still is king and cable is only playing catch up and in this case....catch with a wall....
Funny, TWC said that docsis3.0 deployments were going to be 'surgical' »Time Warner Cable Upgrades To Be 'Surgical' ... that was two years ago. By the end of 2012 all of twc's markets will be upgraded to d3.
My point is, that once cablelabs formalize the standard it will take a year or two to see real world deployments. Probably comcast will be the first contestant to throw their CMTS hat into the ring.
At this level of service 'catching up' is a misnomer. Do people really need 300Mbps? Comcast and others offer 100Mbps, TWC offer 50Mbps. I would agree that adsl or vdsl/vdsl2 is playing catching up but docsis3.0? I don't think so.
Never say never. |
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 somms
join:2003-07-28
Salt Lake City, UT | reply to majortom1029
said by majortom1029:If FTTH was king why did verizon stop the roll out? The problem is most people stop caring when speeds get to a certain point. Then they only care about price.
HFC networks can reach the speed where people stop caring and beat fios on price.
Example cablevisions 101/15 package is $100 and verizons 130/35 is $199 a month.
Verizon is just now moving speeds up to match cablevisions lower prices.
Current top of the line modems can match the speeds that fios is rolling out. Cablevision is already putting out 8 downstream channels to customers.I suspect they are only waiting till the end of the year when all of their service area is all digital to start upstream channel bonding.
»www.xmission.com/utopia#more
FWIW: I'm currently paying $45/month for 100Mbps symmetrical FTTH...
»www.xmission.com/connectivity
For crazy business connection prices, up to GigE speeds are avail over single-mode fiber which no cable modem can currently hope to attain...
Some Benefits of Fiber Optics vs. Copper
•Low loss of signal (typically less than 0.3 dB/km), so repeater-less transmission over long distances is possible
•Large data-carrying capacity (thousands of times greater, reaching speeds of up to 1.6 Tb/s in field deployed systems and up to 10 Tb/s in lab systems respectively)
•Greater resistance to electromagnetic noise such as radios, motors or other nearby cables.
•No electromagnetic radiation; difficult to eavesdrop
•High electrical resistance, so safe to use near high-voltage equipment or between areas with different earth potentials
•Low weight
•No crosstalk between cables
»www.pacificcable.com/Fiber-Optic···ial.html
Yeah, in no way can copper ever hope to surpass fiber optics!  |
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etaadmin
join:2002-01-17
Dallas, TX
kudos:1 | said by somms:Yeah, in no way can copper ever hope to surpass fiber optics!
There is no rebuttal on you comment but 'copper' HFC systems can get very, very close to what FTTH offers and most importantly at a fraction of the cost for deploying fiber.
I'd love to get a fiber connection like yours, when not in use it will be perfect for playing with Mr. Orion (my white/yellow... or is it yellow over white? Labrador retriever) I can shine the fiber's laser beam on the wall and move it around and watch the dumb playful dog chase it. 
But unfortunately I can't get fiber, specially at that price so I'll have to live with my perfectly good twc 50/5 service. |
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danclan
join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA
1 edit | reply to etaadmin
So based on your comments it will be 4 years + before cable co's can deploy it.
CableCo's should, I would think, love the bandwidth, to then go to a fully TCP/IP based video system and free up all that channel width which would in theory give them ample speed to complete with fiber.
Fiber though is still king. Its cheaper long term, it supports full video AND tcp/ip and is as far as I know future proof. Coax will still have to find solutions to adding bandwidth and continue to push fiber closer to the home to over the limitations of copper.
Is 300mbps overkill? Don't know, but there are very few who would turn it down if they could afford it....I love mine and I use it all, I have had 50/20 for years now and Comcast will never be able to provide the performance and stability of FIOS...ever.
Some people seem to think all land based systems are dead and dying. I don't agree with that. They have their place and if anything I can see with bandwidth like this making the home server of more relevance than ever. The cloud can be great but being owner of you own digital domain is better...buts thats a whole other discussion.... |
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danclan
join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA | reply to etaadmin
said by etaadmin:said by somms:Yeah, in no way can copper ever hope to surpass fiber optics!
There is no rebuttal on you comment but 'copper' HFC systems can get very, very close to what FTTH offers and most importantly at a fraction of the cost for deploying fiber. I disagree. Not only can fiber greatly out distance HFC but it's not even close. The short term cost however is absolutely its downfall. Long term though fiber is substantially cheaper since maintenance and number of repeaters etc. is far far less as is its power requirements.
Good discussion here today. |
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 Simba7I Void Warranties
join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT | reply to etaadmin
said by etaadmin:No system is perfect. When cable go all digital there will be plenty channels available, it is just a matter of time before this happen. Just have to convert those pesky legacy customers. |
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etaadmin
join:2002-01-17
Dallas, TX
kudos:1 | said by Simba7:said by etaadmin:No system is perfect. When cable go all digital there will be plenty channels available, it is just a matter of time before this happen. Just have to convert those pesky legacy customers. It will happen... just plow those old TVs. |
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iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2 | reply to etaadmin
I have no cold use for 300M down. But 65M up? Sure! Makes photo/video/work uploads a heck of a lot quicker. |
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iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2 Reviews:
 ·Verizon Online DSL
 ·RoadRunner Cable
·Comcast
| reply to etaadmin
Good luck getting cablecos to go midlife/1800MHz. At that point their systems might as well be FTTh because line losses are gonna be high, even for hard line, more than a couple hundred feet from the node. So high, in fact, that stuff just won't work  |
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 FBGuyPremium
join:2005-03-19
Evanston, IL | reply to Simba7
comcast here in evanston, il is all digital now. no analog channels at all. |
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etaadmin
join:2002-01-17
Dallas, TX
kudos:1
1 edit | reply to iansltx
said by iansltx:Good luck getting cablecos to go midlife/1800MHz. At that point their systems might as well be FTTh because line losses are gonna be high, even for hard line, more than a couple hundred feet from the node. So high, in fact, that stuff just won't work
Really? A couple of hundred feet eh?
The difference between 200 feet @ 860MHz and 1.8GHz of RG6 is about 4 dB all you have to do is select a different tap value or install a HFC amplifier and you are good for another 1000 feet. But the HFC plant is not RG6 it is a lower loss coaxial with much lower attenuation even at higher frequencies.
»www.billowcable.com/sdp/430189/4···ble.html
»Cable Modems and Wiring Issues »Chart of Signal Loss per 100ft
»www.timesmicrowave.com/cgi-bin/calculate.pl
But OK, lets be conservative and push the spectrum up to 1.3 or 1.5 GHz... that is more than a 100% gain in spectrum in 750MHz HFC plants. |
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iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
·RoadRunner Cable
·Comcast
| Good call, catching me where I obviously pulled numbers out of my butt. Seriously, this is why a forum is a good thing  Didn't realize losses were that low on those freqs.
FWIW it's highly unlikely that a cableco would go from 750MHz to 1.x GHz. Cox and Suddenlink have upped their systems to 1GHz in many (most?) areas. Comcast is at 860MHz in many areas. TWC is...??? 750? 860? 1000? Unsure about Cablevision as well. My guess is that their next step will be 1GHz, after which it remains to be seen how far they're willing to push their plant since each round of upgrades means either more amps or less coax, with the latter preferred. The systems aren't sitting at 750MHz out of laziness...there are reasons they're at that low of a spec. |
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 GuspazGuspazPremium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:20 | reply to Nuts
said by Nuts :Cable TV has limits. 8 upstream is not possible with only so many channels below
54MHZ. It's 5-42, IIRC, so you could do 6ish. Best leave some for digital cable, unless you're doing IPTV, so effectively, you can do 4. But, as has been mentioned, there are alternative solutions in the works to get around this.
said by Nuts :Where are they going to find more downstream channels? Hope cable TV has upgraded
their systems to 1GHZ not 750MHz. 1GHz leaves the systems with much shorter
drop lengths. All new 1GHZ systems will need new drops including ground or splitter
runs. Prewired homes will be a thing of the past. What about nearby high power licensed
two way or digital, it can wreck cable TV usage?
Also I hope they have a constant sweep crew to keep up with levels and main cables getting damaged and going bad.
I can't speak for where you live, but most cable systems here are 850MHz, most cable companies here have already dropped or are in the process of dropping analog cable, and some of them (including mine) have been moving massive numbers of digital channels to SDV (switched digital video) for years. Upgrading the cable plant to 1GHz is understandably not a high priority, there's plenty of downstream channels available.
If you're interested, a detailed QAM-by-QAM breakdown of Videotron's cable network in Montreal can be found here:
»www.illicotech.com/NumMtl.html
Most of their analog channels are not listed.
It's pretty cool to be able to see what the cable company is doing, the bitrates and resolutions of different channels, etc. It's also ironic that I noticed Discovery HD was now available by spotting it in the QAM list before I noticed it was on my TV.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org |
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 rcdaileyDragoonflyPremium
join:2005-03-29
Rialto, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to etaadmin
All old TVs will eventually die, and then the only replacement will be a digital TV. That's what happened to me, though I was already on a digital box with the TV connected. I could go OTA and have tried it, but the channel selection is limited, due to line-of-sight.
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It is easier for a camel to put on a bikini than an old man to thread a needle. |
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