 Jack_in_VAPremium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1 | reply to telco_mtl
Re: Heat pumps - geothermal vs air source said by telco_mtl:here in quebec, our utility gives a preferential rate if you have a dual fuel system, usually heat pump until -12c and oil/gas below that. at -15c you get nudged to the higher electricity rate. Air source is generally teh way we go due to the time it takes to recoup investment because of our inexpensive electricity.
What are your rates? It appears that Canada has reasonable rates. Evidently you don't have the environmental crazies that oppose any upgrading or new electrical sources. Even our Hydro the environmental wacko's are forcing the breech of some of our hydro producing dams so the "Fish" can swim upstream.
My utility is trying to build a new power plant not too far from me and the crazies have come out of their caves and so far have it stopped. |
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 cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | said by Jack_in_VA:What are your rates? It appears that Canada has reasonable rates. Evidently you don't have the environmental crazies that oppose any upgrading or new electrical sources. According to here (page 20) $.0682/kWh for residential as of 4/2011 exclusive of taxes.
For the record, for that same time period, I paid just over $.08/kwh inclusive of all taxes and fees. And geothermal sales aren't doing too bad in the area. |
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 tobyTroy Mcclure
join:2001-11-13
Seattle, WA
 ·OlyPen, Inc.
·CenturyLink
| reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:said by telco_mtl:here in quebec, our utility gives a preferential rate if you have a dual fuel system, usually heat pump until -12c and oil/gas below that. at -15c you get nudged to the higher electricity rate. Air source is generally teh way we go due to the time it takes to recoup investment because of our inexpensive electricity.
What are your rates? It appears that Canada has reasonable rates. Evidently you don't have the environmental crazies that oppose any upgrading or new electrical sources. Even our Hydro the environmental wacko's are forcing the breech of some of our hydro producing dams so the "Fish" can swim upstream. My utility is trying to build a new power plant not too far from me and the crazies have come out of their caves and so far have it stopped. Oh, those whackos.
Blocking the rivers of course harms the environment.
The geothermal mentioned in this thread is actually solar, where the sun warms the ground, not the heat from the earth like is used in place like Iceland.
Nuclear is the best power, as long as it isnn't owned by private irresponsible companies of course. |
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Jack_in_VAPremium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1 | reply to cdru
said by cdru:said by Jack_in_VA:What are your rates? It appears that Canada has reasonable rates. Evidently you don't have the environmental crazies that oppose any upgrading or new electrical sources. According to here (page 20) $.0682/kWh for residential as of 4/2011 exclusive of taxes. For the record, for that same time period, I paid just over $.08/kwh inclusive of all taxes and fees. And geothermal sales aren't doing too bad in the area. I just received my bill from 1/12/12 to 2/13/12. 2230 kWh @ 10.8 cents/kWh. Includes all taxes various BS fees that politicians stick on. |
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| said by Jack_in_VA:said by cdru:said by Jack_in_VA:What are your rates? It appears that Canada has reasonable rates. Evidently you don't have the environmental crazies that oppose any upgrading or new electrical sources. According to here (page 20) $.0682/kWh for residential as of 4/2011 exclusive of taxes. For the record, for that same time period, I paid just over $.08/kwh inclusive of all taxes and fees. And geothermal sales aren't doing too bad in the area. I just received my bill from 1/12/12 to 2/13/12. 2230 kWh @ 10.8 cents/kWh. Includes all taxes various BS fees that politicians stick on. right now the DT rate that i am on is :
above -15c its 4.3c a kw/h
below - 15c its 18.32c a kw/h
the regular rate (normal residential consumers):
first 30kwh a day : 5.39c a kwh
after that its : 7.50c a kwh |
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 MsradellP.E.Premium
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| reply to Daarken
said by Daarken:Its possibly the entire cost, the expected utility bill is around $350/month, if I recall correctly.
One of my best friends lives next door, and his father gives construction tours form time to time. In that case it's a great deal! $350 a month for utility bills in a 12,000 square foot home is also very good. |
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 alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1 | said by Msradell:In that case it's a great deal! $350 a month for utility bills in a 12,000 square foot home is also very good.
Someone with a 12,000 SQF home can certainly afford 350$/month, it's pennies per SQF!! |
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 DaarkenRara AvisesPremium
join:2005-01-12
Southwest LA
kudos:3 | reply to Msradell
When he comes into the office, I'll hit him up for more info.
We are also providing some home automation/security for the project.
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Getting it Done. |
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 whizkid3Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
kudos:9 | reply to toby
said by toby:The geothermal mentioned in this thread is actually solar, where the sun warms the ground, not the heat from the earth like is used in place like Iceland. Ground-source heat pump is the same thing as geothermal heat-exchange. Geothermal comes in basically three flavors: horizontal surface coils, shallow-well and deep-well. It sounds as if the OP is talking about surface geothermal. This requires a relatively large amount of land to bury the coils; horizontally buried at typically about ten feet deep. Shallow-well uses drilled wells as opposed to simply placing coils horizontally in the ground. Shallow well requires less land than horizontal but still takes a lot of land depending on its application. And its not as shallow as you think; the wells can be from 50' to hundreds of feet deep; most typically about 80' to 100' feet deep. Deep well is used where there is not enough land to have many, many wells.
Its not just Iceland where geo-thermal energy is being used. Geothermal energy has been around since the 1800's in the USA. Deep-well geothermal is being used right in Manhattan to provide HVAC to buildings. There are geothermal installations all across the United States. The US leads the world in geothermal electricity production. It doesn't require 'volcanic activity'! 
ground-source heat pump which is different from Geothermal heating & cooling. Bear in mind, all of these systems use 'heat pumps' to work. Just not small residential units. |
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| reply to scooper
said by scooper:The better term to use should be ground source heatpump, rather than geothermal. Geothermal would usually be like alkizmo was referring to about volcanic type heat .
Ground source heatpumps should even work up there in the GWN.
The Government calls it Geothermal, so I'll call it Geothermal.  |
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| reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:said by telco_mtl:here in quebec, our utility gives a preferential rate if you have a dual fuel system, usually heat pump until -12c and oil/gas below that. at -15c you get nudged to the higher electricity rate. Air source is generally teh way we go due to the time it takes to recoup investment because of our inexpensive electricity.
What are your rates? It appears that Canada has reasonable rates. Evidently you don't have the environmental crazies that oppose any upgrading or new electrical sources. Even our Hydro the environmental wacko's are forcing the breech of some of our hydro producing dams so the "Fish" can swim upstream. My utility is trying to build a new power plant not too far from me and the crazies have come out of their caves and so far have it stopped. That's a bit misleading.
The US actually has larger hydroelectric facilities than Canada, but Canada has a smaller population concentrated in a smaller area (most of Canada's land mass is frozen tundra). Still, their hydro is only 60% of their electric usage.
We're a bigger country and we use more energy, so we have more energy sources. |
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| reply to whizkid3
said by whizkid3: Geothermal comes in basically three flavors: horizontal surface coils, shallow-well and deep-well. It sounds as if the OP is talking about surface geothermal. This requires a relatively large amount of land to bury the coils; horizontally buried at typically about ten feet deep. Shallow-well uses drilled wells as opposed to simply placing coils horizontally in the ground. Shallow well requires less land than horizontal but still takes a lot of land depending on its application. And its not as shallow as you think; the wells can be from 50' to hundreds of feet deep; most typically about 80' to 100' feet deep. Deep well is used where there is not enough land to have many, many wells.
There are a few types, actually.
We are looking into what you call "surface geothermal" (horizontal loop) as well as where the loops are put down a drilled well (vertical loop). Both are closed loops with glycol refrigerant. Some even put the loops at the bottom of a body of water like a pond or lake.
There's also open loop where you just use the ground water and discharge it somewhere.
We are looking at either a horizontal loop or vertical loop. We have the land for both but the horizontal loop involves significant tree cutting. |
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 tstolzePremium
join:2003-08-08
O Fallon, MO
kudos:1
 ·Charter
·CenturyLink
| said by fifty nine:We are looking at either a horizontal loop or vertical loop. We have the land for both but the horizontal loop involves significant tree cutting.
Some installers are now using directional boring for horizontal loops. Horizontal is defiantly cheaper and with a boring rig the trees would be a non issue.
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Ofallon, Mo Weather
St. Peters, Mo Weather |
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| reply to fifty nine
I replaced my old propane furnace with geothermal three years ago. They put in 1250 feet of tubing in the 2 acres at the back of the house with a total cost of $15,000 with about $5,000 for the loop. I was using about 1,000 gallons of propane for the heating season and at $2.00 or so per gallon it was costing me over $400 per month in the winter. Now I rarely go over $150 a month for heating so it was a quick payback for me and I received credits from the government and the local utility company of over $5,000. Considering I had to replace the old system anyway, I came out pretty good. If you have the land and don't mind having things torn up for several years then go for it. |
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cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | reply to whizkid3
said by whizkid3:Shallow-well uses drilled wells as opposed to simply placing coils horizontally in the ground. Shallow well requires less land than horizontal but still takes a lot of land depending on its application. For most residential applications, a 10'x10' area is the minimum that's required. More space the better, but if there's a clear area that size, vertical loops probably can be installed.
And its not as shallow as you think; the wells can be from 50' to hundreds of feet deep; most typically about 80' to 100' feet deep. Deep well is used where there is not enough land to have many, many wells. |
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Jack_in_VAPremium
join:2007-11-26
Mathews, VA
kudos:1 | reply to fifty nine
I looked into geothermal. My HVAC company installs them for customers who insist on them. We even looked into coils in the water but the probability of marine life coating the coil would require frequent replacement. I have a 100 ft well so we even discussed using the well and just dumping the water in the drainage ditch.
They also pointed out that the average temperature in Virginia is 51 degrees. In the winter, average is 32 and in summer 70 degrees.
To make a long story short their recommendation was a Trane 16i, 16 SEER 2-stage Heat Pump which was just installed and started up. Hopefully my bills will be less than the $135/mo budget I'm paying now. |
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| reply to linus5171
said by linus5171:with a total cost of $15,000 with about $5,000 for the loop How did you get it so cheap? How many BTU/hr is it? |
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jfmezeiPremium
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC
kudos:22 | reply to fifty nine
I had briefly looked into it when the time came to replace our air heat pump.
The short story: economically viable when you build a new home because you combine the digging of the foundations and geothermal together and you don't have to worry about having to rebuild your lawn etc.
It also depends on whether you have easy access for the drills to get to the site once the home has been built. A farm where tractors can get around the house easily is easier than a city dwelling where there are homes all around.
Geothermal savings increase as you go north because when it gets very cold, a air heat pump loses efficiency while geothermal doesn't. So the further south you go, the less the savings are going to be.
Better insulation combined with air heat pump might be the most cost effective solution.
Note that geothermal does increase value of home and the equipment is designed to last about 30 years. (longer than air heat pumps which are outdoors). |
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cwm1276
join:2004-01-16
Stillman Valley, IL Reviews:
·Comcast
| reply to fifty nine
My parents installed in the old farm house 3 years ago. They have 5 wells for a vertical system. It heats the house (drafty) in all but the coldest of weather. The supplemental electric heat strips are only needed when the temp is in the teens for highs. I would assume a better insulated house could go even colder.
They found this by turning off the circuit breaker for the supplemental heat, and the geothermal could not keep up on the coldest of days. Still that is really a few days a year and beats heating with electric the rest of the year. |
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| reply to Automate
That was the going price, I got bids from several dealers and they were all in the same range. I ended up with a 5 ton Geocomfort system that works very well, and that included the water heating function. Part of the low price is the area, this system on the east coast would probably cost a lot more. My 2500 sq ft house on 7 acres is worth about $200,000 here, on either coast it would be double that or more. |
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