xdrag
join:2005-02-18
North York, ON | reply to geokilla
Re: [Cable] POI Update by Marc I understand your rationale behind it but I don't completely agree.
Analogy would be the DVP. At 80% saturation sedans can still go at let's say 100kph without any problem.
When the 24meg upgrade hit, all these tiny sedans suddenly became large trucks. With the additional of these large trucks, the "critical point" was reached where everything grinds to a halt.
In essence, i think speed can also have a large impact on the network by eating up that additional space that was available. |
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 TSI MarcPremium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:14 | That's correct. London is a perfect example of this. We added a full gig link, lifted the stop sell and then 2 days later put the stop sell back because suddenly the new gig link was all eaten up out of the blue.
This is also a big part of our calculations when looking at the latest CRTC ruling on usage and why we believe that the rates are way over priced. They really don't appear to understand what happens when you combine more advanced users with more rope. I'm not talking about "hogs" here either.
Moving users from 15mbit to 24mbit had a big impact on over all usage. It's difficult to actually measure since we're maxing out in many places as a result.
Even without this though. The problem is that we've been getting fed due dates that never get met. So, in some instances I agree that a stop sell should have been put in place a bit sooner but the only reason we held off was because we were being told that it was imminent. After we got burnt a few times we started to understand how that was going to work and now we've adjusted but in general we tried to do the right thing all along.
I will say this though; It's been a rough year on many fronts and we've had many internal changes. These were all necessary and we did what we could at each turn but the net effect is that we've gone from a very reactive state to most things and now we're getting back to a more proactive state of dealing with issues. So, I will grant that there were surely more warning signs that we might have caught on to if we weren't in such a frenzy internally. We might have reacted sooner and been more johnny on the spot with some issues and had we have, things might not have gotten to such a bad state. The reasons these things were happening were not our fault but I do agree that we could have done more sooner to hold them accountable had we had our act together. So for that I'm truly sorry. I do believe though that it was a necessary evil and that we needed to take a step back in order to take a step forward. I now believe that we are very nearly where we want to be in terms of having our act together. We're still tweaking but each passing week we're tightening the screws on many procedures and policies now that we're in a position internally to really work as a team. I believe that we have a great crew and we're finally starting to pull out of it.
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Marc - CEO/TekSavvy |
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xdrag
join:2005-02-18
North York, ON | said by TSI Marc:I will say this though; It's been a rough year on many fronts and we've had many internal changes. These were all necessary and we did what we could at each turn but the net effect is that we've gone from a very reactive state to most things and now we're getting back to a more proactive state of dealing with issues. So, I will grant that there were surely more warning signs that we might have caught on to if we weren't in such a frenzy internally. We might have reacted sooner and been more johnny on the spot with some issues and had we have, things might not have gotten to such a bad state. The reasons these things were happening were not our fault but I do agree that we could have done more sooner to hold them accountable had we had our act together. So for that I'm truly sorry. I do believe though that it was a necessary evil and that we needed to take a step back in order to take a step forward. I now believe that we are very nearly where we want to be in terms of having our act together. We're still tweaking but each passing week we're tightening the screws on many procedures and policies now that we're in a position internally to really work as a team. I believe that we have a great crew and we're finally starting to pull out of it.
Good for you guys and to hear that tone of accountability. IMO it's better to be conservative with those due dates rather than being aggressive - the McNicoll POI congestion is the prime example. If the other party does fail on you, you will still be in control instead of being in a situation that's "out-of-your hands". Hope TSI will take a more conservative approach and wait for the capacity to be active before selling it out in the future.
Been with TSI since the earliest cable launch and will continue to be so.. just hoping there's less drama in the future. |
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TSI MarcPremium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:14 | reply to TSI Martin
I've looked into the Dupont situation.
Here's what I've found so far;
The 3rd gig link was in fact ordered way back in like March/April. The order was lost on Rogers end though. It ended up never getting installed. I have the email with the order request and I remember having the discussion about them loosing it.
Second twist with Dupont is that when the 2nd gig link was installed in like end of April~ish we thought everything was fine. It turned out that in june/july we started getting complaints of slow speeds but we didn't believe it was on our end because our graphs were showing only half utilization.. it turned out that the 2nd gig link was not properly configured and wasn't being used at all. Once got that fixed then we noticed how bad the situation was... followed up on the 3rd gig link.. found out it was lost at Rogers somehow/never provisioned.. ordered it again.
I've explained this to them today in the last call with Rogers. They are now trying to see if they can't do something sooner then mid Jan for Dupont. They knew it was our top priority but not they know to what degree they messed up on that one.
At this point I'm talking to them daily and they've assigned specific people to champion this within their service delivery department and they've been given all necessary green lights to move mountains. I really hope they can come through for us. This is one of those opportunities that they have to keep their word sort of speak and help correct some of the wrongs... The time lines for anything to happen is roughly a week. Much past that we get into the brownout period where no changes get done on the network due to holidays.
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Marc - CEO/TekSavvy |
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| Marc,
Perhaps you should insist that Rogers create interim speed profiles (i.e. 18M instead of 24M, etc...) until all the gig links are in place in order to avoid negatively affecting existing users as it's obvious that certain areas of the network can't handle 24meg, even with a stop sell.
I'm almost certain these higher speeds were requested by the Rogers marketing department as a direct response to the new Bell Fibe tiers. The problem however is not all POI's on the Rogers network can handle these speeds. |
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| reply to TSI Martin
Is one suppose to "stay" on the same POI once subscribed?
I believe I've been on both Bloor and Dupont during my > 1 year of service (same physical location throughout) and am currently on Dupont. |
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 JCohenPremium
join:2010-10-19
Nepean, ON
kudos:3
 ·Start Communicat..
 ·TekSavvy Cable
 ·Bell Fibe
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| said by juleso:Is one suppose to "stay" on the same POI once subscribed?
I believe I've been on both Bloor and Dupont during my > 1 year of service (same physical location throughout) and am currently on Dupont.
I believe that Dupont was created when Rogers did a massive split of Bloor and Scarlett, see the POI map here »g.co/maps/jmfu6/. |
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| reply to TSI Marc
said by TSI Marc:I've looked into the Dupont situation.
Here's what I've found so far;
The 3rd gig link was in fact ordered way back in like March/April. The order was lost on Rogers end though. It ended up never getting installed. I have the email with the order request and I remember having the discussion about them loosing it.
Do you get weekly status updates on all pending orders with Rogers - including order/work order numbers? If not, why not? |
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| reply to TSI Marc
said by TSI Marc:I've looked into the Dupont situation.
Here's what I've found so far;
The 3rd gig link was in fact ordered way back in like March/April. The order was lost on Rogers end though. It ended up never getting installed. I have the email with the order request and I remember having the discussion about them loosing it.
Second twist with Dupont is that when the 2nd gig link was installed in like end of April~ish we thought everything was fine. It turned out that in june/july we started getting complaints of slow speeds but we didn't believe it was on our end because our graphs were showing only half utilization.. it turned out that the 2nd gig link was not properly configured and wasn't being used at all. Once got that fixed then we noticed how bad the situation was... followed up on the 3rd gig link.. found out it was lost at Rogers somehow/never provisioned.. ordered it again.
I've explained this to them today in the last call with Rogers. They are now trying to see if they can't do something sooner then mid Jan for Dupont. They knew it was our top priority but not they know to what degree they messed up on that one.
At this point I'm talking to them daily and they've assigned specific people to champion this within their service delivery department and they've been given all necessary green lights to move mountains. I really hope they can come through for us. This is one of those opportunities that they have to keep their word sort of speak and help correct some of the wrongs... The time lines for anything to happen is roughly a week. Much past that we get into the brownout period where no changes get done on the network due to holidays.
The fact you and your company have taken so long to recognize this situation with Dupont is deplorable. Your ability to follow-up on your own orders in a timely fashion is a disgrace and only now 2.5 months after the stop sell, 4 months after users first reported are you talking with them daily just goes to show how poor your management is at understanding the problems with your processes and monitoring abilities. The constant push of responsibility to someone else is inexcusable. I am glad you think your relationship is improving with Rogers but you and only you are responsible for service to your customers. As a customer I can not manage your vendors, nor is it my problem, but you seem to continuously make it our problem. Man up give us the credit we deserve for the fractional service your company has provided, not at resolution but credit until you provide resolution. |
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| reply to PSurge
said by PSurge :Marc,
Perhaps you should insist that Rogers create interim speed profiles (i.e. 18M instead of 24M, etc...) until all the gig links are in place in order to avoid negatively affecting existing users as it's obvious that certain areas of the network can't handle 24meg, even with a stop sell.
I would support this. |
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| reply to JCohen
Thanks.
Geographically I am clearly within the boundaries of the Bloor POI area...several blocks from Dupont border shown with an eastern boundary of Bathurst St. Still, it appears I'm on Dupont...I only care now because of the slower speeds.
Is the map not 100% accurate or it is just possible that even though you are geographically within the boundaries of one POI, you can somehow be assigned on another? |
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JCohenPremium
join:2010-10-19
Nepean, ON
kudos:3 Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
·TekSavvy Cable
·Bell Fibe
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| said by juleso:Is the map not 100% accurate or it is just possible that even though you are geographically within the boundaries of one POI, you can somehow be assigned on another?
The map isn't 100% accurate as it's not official. |
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Reviews:
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| reply to xdrag
said by xdrag: I understand your rationale behind it but I don't completely agree. Analogy would be the DVP. At 80% saturation sedans can still go at let's say 100kph without any problem. When the 24meg upgrade hit, all these tiny sedans suddenly became large trucks. With the additional of these large trucks, the "critical point" was reached where everything grinds to a halt. In essence, i think speed can also have a large impact on the network by eating up that additional space that was available. And I don't agree with you either. Continuing to use your DVP/highway example, it'd be like this:
There was an accident and the left lane was blocked so it's essentially a 2 lane highway (2nd GIG) with traffic crawling at 20Km/h or less. Past the accident site, the blocked lane is open again so it's now a 3 lane highway (3rd GIG) with traffic moving swiftly at 70Km/h. Let's assume there are only so many vehicles merging (stop-sell in effect minus 2 days + Canada Computers signups). Traffic is still pretty much the same and no matter how much I rage, I can't go faster than 70Km/h. Speed limit is 90Km/h and I never reached that speed limit before. Still not reaching it now! |
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| reply to JCohen
said by JCohen:said by juleso:Is the map not 100% accurate or it is just possible that even though you are geographically within the boundaries of one POI, you can somehow be assigned on another?
The map isn't 100% accurate as it's not official. It's not. I fall under Dupont in that map, but on the direct forums i was told i'm on Scarlett. I do however fall close to the border of the two. So it's close. |
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TSI MarcPremium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:14 | reply to koolin
said by koolin:The fact you and your company have taken so long to recognize this situation with Dupont is deplorable. Your ability to follow-up on your own orders in a timely fashion is a disgrace and only now 2.5 months after the stop sell, 4 months after users first reported are you talking with them daily just goes to show how poor your management is at understanding the problems with your processes and monitoring abilities. The constant push of responsibility to someone else is inexcusable. I am glad you think your relationship is improving with Rogers but you and only you are responsible for service to your customers. As a customer I can not manage your vendors, nor is it my problem, but you seem to continuously make it our problem. Man up give us the credit we deserve for the fractional service your company has provided, not at resolution but credit until you provide resolution.
I stand by everything I've said and I simply don't agree. When the CEO of a company needs to be in daily contact with the provisioning department of it's vendors there's clearly something majorly wrong. It's not that we didn't notice it before. We did, my staff did. We raised it and we were told; "yep, yep, it's coming here's a due date".. that date would come and go.. and then it became wholly crap, we don't have any capacity left to sell you. These order take multiple months to complete even when things are going right. There's nothing to check on 1.5 months into an order. It takes that long to deliver these.
I think you're rightfully upset and I understand and respect that, I am too. I can't undo it, I'm in the financial shit at this point too. We've all been given a dog's breakfast. If I hadn't put a stop sell things would have been much much worse. Like it or not, I have been looking out for you and continue to do so. A credit is simply not possible.
The over all message I'm hoping everybody is left with though is that there is light at the end of this tunnel. That this is a temporary situation. I'm personally working and thinking about this day and night. I believe Rogers, the capacity side of their house at least, has understood. I now know more people internally and I hope that this will make for better over all team work. We need to work together in the end and so this is not about pointing fingers but about finding the best ways to work together going forward.
koolin, I'm truly sorry. I hope in the future we can do better by you and somehow gain your trust again. If not I will also understand that.
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Marc - CEO/TekSavvy |
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| said by TSI Marc:I stand by everything I've said and I simply don't agree. When the CEO of a company needs to be in daily contact with the provisioning department of it's vendors there's clearly something majorly wrong. It's not that we didn't notice it before. We did, my staff did. We raised it and we were told; "yep, yep, it's coming here's a due date".. that date would come and go.. and then it became wholly crap, we don't have any capacity left to sell you. These order take multiple months to complete even when things are going right. There's nothing to check on 1.5 months into an order. It takes that long to deliver these.
So put a full page ad in the Globe & Mail / National Post /Toronto Star and address it as an open letter to the CRTC, and let them & the whole country know how the incumbents are incompetent and screw the million or so indie customers across the country.
Then maybe Nadir Mohamed, et. al. will be called to the INDU committee in Ottawa to 'splain themselves.
As to "here's nothing to check on 1.5 months into an order. It takes that long to deliver these.", I say BULL. There's plenty to check on - is the fibre pull under way, have you received municipal permits, are you waiting for electricians or manholes to be pumped free of water, is your line card supplier experiencing delays, when is the line card due, has that date changed, are your key network guys away for a month-long honeymoon, what else is being delayed, etc.... |
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Reviews:
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| reply to TSI Martin
How about asking Rogers to drop all of the D2 modems back to 15Mbit. That would help with two capacity issues 1) at the node (customer) end, and 2) at the Teksavvy/Rogers/POI end.
Marc - I have to believe that the majority of your users are on D2 modems, but ultimately you folks have to confirm that.
Rogers themselves limit access to 15+Mbit speeds to D3 modems - I am surprised they let the TPIA ISPs provision them faster.
-- SS |
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 sbrookPremium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:4
·TekSavvy Cable
| reply to TSI Martin
Reducing speeds is easier said than done. When you're dealing with a couple million modems and you want to reduce the speed of say 500 of them, it requires automation, not just the odd manual tweak. And Rogers will probably not have the manpower or time to write the program to find the affected modems, and provision them differently. When they introduce and test new tiers they're only dealing with a small number and so they'll do those manually.
Rogers has a long history of ignoring problems ... they'll find ways to deal with the complaints rather than fix problems. Look at the impact of throttling on games ... It's gone to the CRTC and still not resolved over a year later when the answer is fairly simple. Turn off throttling and see how the network holds up (probably fairly well!) |
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 elwoodbluesElwood BluesPremium
join:2006-08-30
HarperLand
·Cybersurf Intern..
| reply to TSI Martin
I don't know if you have these kind of stats, but how many people came from DSL to Cable, vs switching from Rogers to TSI (which from a internal capacity point is a wash).
I just find it hard to believe that they have no more capacity, and if true, they are truly an incompetent organization (and it shows based on the fact they spent very little money on network upgrades).
Now for those that are rightfully pissed or, at least TSI is communicating with you, do you think Mohammed Nadir (CEO Of Rogers), let along Mikro , is going to start a blog? Do you think he's going to post in DLSR explaining what is going on?
No they'll just keep selling, and using their "up to" to get out of slowdown problems.
It's not an excuse, or fanbois support for TSI (I'm on Distrbutel), but what I have always had an issue with my bosses with, COMMUNICATE, I don't care if you tell me all is well, talk to me, and that's what you are getting out of TSI, they are talking to the handful of people that hang out here.
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It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas. What do you say, is it the new Bluesmobile or what? |
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elwoodbluesElwood BluesPremium
join:2006-08-30
HarperLand Reviews:
·Cybersurf Intern..
| reply to ssherwood
said by ssherwood:How about asking Rogers to drop all of the D2 modems back to 15Mbit. That would help with two capacity issues 1) at the node (customer) end, and 2) at the Teksavvy/Rogers/POI end.
Marc - I have to believe that the majority of your users are on D2 modems, but ultimately you folks have to confirm that.
Rogers themselves limit access to 15+Mbit speeds to D3 modems - I am surprised they let the TPIA ISPs provision them faster.
-- SS
But how? I have D2 modem, and get 24mb just you do on the D3, what is that going to accomplish? I can run out tomorrow get a D3 modem, and I'm still consuming 24mb of bandwidth.
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It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas. What do you say, is it the new Bluesmobile or what? |
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