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Tirael
join:2009-03-18
Savannah, GA
4 edits | The (Insert Class) Tank and You For Beginners
So, I was reading through some posts today on here and I realized something. A small portion of our community seems to have some confusion over tanking and the differences between their classes dps spec vs. tanking spec. This is especially apparent in the case of Dks.
Before I get into this let me give you my creds (so you don't think I am blowing most of this out of my ass). First, let's start with my characters:
Paleteal - Tauren Prot/Arms Warrior - Mal'ganis
My first character in WoW. Has been around since right after the release of Karazhan. With her, I have tanked most content from Kara - RoS in BT and from Naxx - Present content. As my main, I tank with her a lot. If you doubt my skill, ask any of the people from here who play with me. I am not saying I am the best warrior out there, but I think I can hold my own.
Tirael - Orc Blood dps/Frost tank DK
Tirael was my first level 80 in Wrath. I have tanked all content with him from Naxx - current. Same as above statement, I am not the best around, just experienced.
Ok, now that's out of the way. Let's move on to tanking. Tanking, with the exception of druids, is relatively the same across the board. I say this because Dks are not your traditional shield tanks that most of us were use to. To tank as any of the three plate tanks (Paladins, Warriors, and Dks) there are several different things you need to understand.
1) Spec
For warriors and paladins, tank spec is pretty much self-explanatory. If you are confused, Blizzard did you a big favor and labeled this tree "Protection", which should scream "MEATSHIELD" to all of you. For Dks, as all three trees can tank, this can become somewhat confusing. There are 3 main tank specs for Dks (with some variations). Listing them here would take up a lot of space so I will save that for another thread. For all plate tanks, talents that improve avoidance, armor, stamina, and damage reduction are a must. Here is a list of sites sorted for each class:
Warriors:
»www.tankingtips.com
Paladins:
»maintankadin.failsafedesign.com
DKs:
»www.tankspot.com (Also applies to the other two classes.)
2) Gear
Tanking gear usually consists of gear with high amounts of stamina, avoidance stats and defense as their main sticking points of itemization. This isn't to say that some things that are considered dps gear (most notably trinkets) can't be used as tanking gear, as these can be used for threat, but gear with stamina/avoidance on it is usually more favorable in most situations.
Any good tank will do one of two things when it comes to gear:
A) Have multiple sets based upon what they are doing. For example, a set that focus on high amounts of HP for spell damage fights, a set that focuses on high amounts of armor/avoidance for physical damage fights, and a set that focuses on generating threat (more on threat later).
B) Have one set that is well-rounded in all the areas listed above.
Most tanks at the high-end of content choose to do option A. For our purposes, since we aren't in guilds like Ensidia, SK Gaming or any of the other top end guilds, option B will work just as well. In the end, it's really your choice on how you use your bag/bank space.
3) Stats
Your characters stats will greatly affect your effectiveness as a tank. This becomes especially apparent in the areas of avoidance, mitigation, stamina, and melee dps stats (hit and expertise). First off, your number one priority is to become critical strike immune against a level 83 (Raid Boss level ??) mob. This crit immunity is 5.6%. You can reach this in a few different ways, but the most commom is to achieve 689 defense rating (the +defense on gear) which will give you a total of 540 defense skill (base for all level 80 players is 400 and the rating gives you an additional 140).
For Paladins/Warriors, this can be achieved early on by getting gear with a lot of +def on it. A lot of the craftable gear and gear from heroics will do this for you.
For a DK, since they do not use shields (which provides Pallies and Warriors with an extra slot for defense rating) Blizzard has given them Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle. SSG provides DKs with 25 defense skill (~124 defense rating) and 2% increased stamina. This means that Dks only need to get 565 defense rating from gear in order to become crit immune.
Another way to gain crit immunity is to use resilience. This is not preferred because resilience does not contribute to your avoidance like defense skill does, but is viable early on in your life as a tank. You will find resilience on PvP gear. There is also a few enchants for it, most notably the +30 stam/15 resil one from Hall of Legends/Champion's Hall accessory vendor for 10k honor. I would not advise using very many (if any if you can help it) pieces of pvp gear to do so. If you do use resil to reach crit immunity, just know that your percent crit immunity from defense + your percent crit immunity from resil has to equal 5.6% critical chance reduction in order to be immune to critical strike from non-player units.
Another thing to know about is avoidance vs mitigation stats. I am sure you understand that having high HP is good for any tank by now, so I won't insult your intelligence by delving into that, but understanding avoidance and how it differs from mitigation is key to knowing how to tank. Avoidance is your percentage-based chance to not be hit by a mob. Avoidance is considered to be 4 different things:
Dodge
Parry
Miss from defense/talents/racials (Frigid Dreadplate for DKs, Nightelf racial Quickness)
Bosses chance to miss
People more patient than you or I, who either get paid to or have a lot of free time to play have figured these things for us. Any of the sites I listed above will tell you about these stats and how they are affected by different things, such as Diminishing Returns (the bane of all tanks, more on this later). These people also figured out that most bosses have a 5% chance to miss player-controlled units and that a defense capped tank (540 def) has a 5.6% chance to not be hit. So your total avoidance can be figured like this:
Dodge Chance % + Parry Chance % + 5.6% (or miss chance from defense if lower than 540) + 5% + Miss from talents/racials = Total Avoidance
As with all percentage-based chances in life (i.e. winning the lottery and other forms of gambling) avoidance can fail. Just because your total avoidance is 60% doesn't mean that 60% of the time it will always be there. This is because of the mechanics of the game itself. If you ever played D&D, then you understand how the "roll system" works. Well, in WoW there is also a hidden roll system (which is actually a random number generator) that determines nearly everything that happens to your character or that your character does. This also applies to avoidance. Remember that 1d6 save roll that always came up 1? Expect this to happen to you in WoW as well, however not as often. LoL.
Mitigation differs from avoidance in that it is static damage reduction. Mitigation is considered to be things like Damage Reduction from armor, block, and skills. Unlike avoidance, mitigation will always be there, with the exception of debuffs on your character reducing these things.
Later on in your tanks life, you need to worry about your stamina, armor, avoidance and threat stats and how each new piece of gear you get affects each of these. For example:
Item A (Currently Equipped)
2500 armor
50 strength
100 stamina
50 defense
45 Expertise
Item B (Just Dropped)
2500 armor
35 strength
100 stamina
45 defense
50 dodge
65 parry
You need to know how the stats on these two pieces of gear will affect your class. Item A is a great piece for threat, but Item B will boost your avoidance. This is where understanding stats, itemization across each slot in your character and things of this nature come into play. For now, I will say just understand that each of the pieces listed in the example are good pieces.
4) Avoidance vs. Stamina/Armor
This is probably one of the oldest fights in the book amoungst tanks. Some people in the tanking community feel that having high amounts of avoidance is better than stacking stamina/armor. The other side feels that due to the nature of the randomness of avoidance, having static stats like stamina/armor is king.
From my own personal experience, any good tank is well-balanced in both these areas. They have enough avoidance so they don't always take damage and enough stamina/armor so the aren't two-shotted by the mobs they are tanking. This is something that you will have to decide for on your own, using your own experiences.
5) Threat Generation
Ah, the hunter/lock who decides to go all out as soon as you engaged the mob will become your best friend and your groups worst enemy. Friend for the laughs, enemy for the repair costs. If you tanked in BC, threat was way different back then than it is now. Threat is now more based off the dps you do, than threat modifiers. A tank's dps can be turned into what is called Damage to Threat per Second (dtps).
For tanks, having decent melee dps stats (Attack Power, Hit, Critical Strike Chance, and Expertise) are key components of threat generation. Itemization (stats the pieces have) on tank gear includes a most of these stats in the form of hit, expertise and strength (which for plate classes 1 str = 2 ap). You critical strike chance is usually low but can/will be buffed by talents (such as Guile of Gorefiend, Conviction, Incite) and usually these talents will apply to your higher damaging abilities. Keep this in mind, more dps equals more threat generation.
Another thing you need to know about threat is how it affects the mobs you are tanking. Threat is based off a percentage of something called "Hate". Hate is basically a state of a mob when it is hostile to you (when you mouseover it, a sword appears). In the beginning of a fight, everyone starts at 0% hate and the mob will attack the closest person to him/her.
Hate (threat) builds as you do damage to the mob. Threat is also built up by other things, such as debuffs done to the mob and the amount of healing healers do. Unless otherwise stated by the ability or modifiers from talents/presence/stance/buff (Defensive Stance/Frost Presence/Righteous Fury) attacks do 100% threat to the mob. There is a long formula for this conversion that I won't go into here, but it is important to know which abilties generate more threat than others (such as Avenger's Shield, Rune Strike, Shield Slam).
You should also understand how different levels of threat that each person has against the mobs will affect who the mob attacks. Melee dps who surpass your level of threat by 110% will cause the mob to attack them. For ranged dps, (anyone outside the mobs melee range), they have to surpass your threat level by 130%. A good addon to see this with is Omen and I highly reccommend it if you plan on tanking raids. It shows not only your threat (like the Blizzard UI does standard) it also shows other players threat against the target.
You can compensate for this by using your class's taunt (Righteous Defense, Taunt, Dark Command). These will cause the you to go up to the threat level of the mobs current target and make them you attack you for a short duration. During this time, you need to generate more threat over the player you taunted the mob off of in order to keep the mob from attacking them again.
5) Lrn2tank, Nub
In the end, all these things will come with time. Some people just never get good at being a tank. It takes a lot of time/practice to become even a mediocre tank (unless it just comes naturally). Even some of the best tanks out there do not understand everything that is going on behind the scenes that allows them to do what they do. All I can tell you is that researching your class, understanding their strengths/weaknesses and just a lot of practice is the only thing that makes you get better as a tank.
So, that's all I can give you for just starting out to tank. As much information as this is, there is probably pages and pages more that I could add to this. I may try to go more indepth and write up threads on DK tanking (as we know this forums need another thread about Dks) and warrior tanking. For now, just read over this so you get the basic idea. If you have any questions, just pm me or post them. If enough people ask questions I will post more indepth threads.
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo | |
pwrtoppl
C-C-C-Combo Breaker
join:2008-11-21
Broomfield, CO
clubs: | Re: The (Insert Class) Tank and You
good guide, and thanks man, for not textblocking us
i think this guide should be stickied for tanking 101
--
blog from boredom | |
GemSnake
Premium
join:2000-10-19
3rd layer
clubs:
2 edits | reply to Tirael
EDIT: back to 'in before "wat aboot teh doorid tankz??" | |
Adalicia
join:2009-10-13 | Very nice guide for new tanks and even some of the more experienced ones. Touched on generally every important point out there for three of our four tanking classes.
But srsl wat aboot teh doorid tankz?? | |
Zyncotl
Zed X
Premium
join:2002-09-13
Wayne, MI
| reply to Tirael
Please don't sticky this. IMO this is common knowledge to anyone who has ever ever considered playing a tank of any class and even to those who never desired to tank.
--
I'd take the time to insult your intelligence, but you probably wouldn't get it. | |
xcal78
join:2009-02-27
Waltham, MA | reply to Tirael
"4) Avoidance vs. Stamina/Armor"
This is really 3 seperate things:
4) Avoidance vs. Health pool (Stamina) vs. Mitigation (Armor) | |
Tirael
join:2009-03-18
Savannah, GA
2 edits | I was more referring to the divide between the two groups of people: Avoidance stackers vs Stamina/Armor Stacking. I wasn't trying to go indepth on the debate just to give an "it is out there, beware" warning.
Yes, all are three seperate things in their own right, which I think I showed in the post. I didn't mention stamina because I would think most people know that you would need more HP to tank than you would to be a dps.
I will never post anything that I falls under two criteria:
1) Things I don't understand
2) Things that I only have very little/vague knowledge of
Druid tanking falls in those categories. I think Xcal's post covers bear tanking pretty well:
»3.x Feral Druid - Bear Tanking Guide
Also, bear tanking is a lot different from the plate classes. Yes, Dks can't block, but the way their stats stack and such are very similar. Bears only benifit from stacking dodge and (even better) agi, iirc. I see bear tanking as the one true nonhomogenized tank class, from my limited knowledge of it. Plate tanking is the same across the board, just different names for the abilities.
@Zyncotl
Not everyone knows this information. This was more geared toward people who have never tanked/people who are new to the game that want to tank. I don't really care if it is stickied. Personally, you are more trolling than helping, imo. Since, you know so much and think this is common knowledge, then delight us with your own knowledge of tanking. Personally, when I first started WoW, at level 20 someone asked me to tank VC and I had two questions: 1) WTF, is VC? 2) What is a tank? Hint: That guy that stands up there and takes the hits from the boss while you heal/dps is who we are talking about.
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo | |
LockInABox
join:2009-04-06
| reply to Tirael
Thanks Tir, stuff like this is useful for tank noobs like myself. Just started my tanking off spec on the pally and have focussed on avoidance and threat. I only have about 32-34 k health in heroics, buffed, but that seems to be enough. I'm working on maintaining threat which seems to be a challenge with mobs of more than 3, especially with hard hitting casters in group. I just started tanking monday actually, but have done two heroics thus far...without wiping btw (4 manned two bosses actually).
Its different than dps'ing for sure. | |
Fouloldron
join:2009-03-26
| reply to Zyncotl
Good write up! Pretty much confirms what I read up on various tanking sites.
I'm still levelling my first warrior tank (~67 now). I'm doing it by tanking instances and doing the instance quests only.
It's been an awesome fun and learning experience that I can reccomend to anyone. (I recently tanked Mana Tombs and Auchenai Crypts for the first time.)
A problem I see with a lot of fresh 80s isn't really the theory. It's knowing what to do when your DPS gets feared into some mobs, trash starts manaburning healers, etc.
I also turned off recount and suddenly got a very different perspective on who performs well in a group. | |
Tirael
join:2009-03-18
Savannah, GA
| reply to LockInABox
I know that at higher end gear levels, paladins become sort of easy mode for tanking multiple mobs just because of gear. A lot of paladin AOE threat has to deal with spec. What spec are you running with atm?
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo | |
Fouloldron
join:2009-03-26
| reply to LockInABox
said by LockInABox  :I'm working on maintaining threat which seems to be a challenge with mobs of more than 3, especially with hard hitting casters in group. What's up with warlocks going tank now? 
How fast do you mark up trash? If you have trouble keeping aggro on multiples, make your group focus fire. I found a neat addon called "targetcharms". It basically lets you mark your target with one click and also includes a readycheck button. (Its especially handy for summoned adds that try to MC you).
Do you have nameplates on? (More people than you think forget about those.) | |
awesome
Premium
join:2008-03-03
Reedsville, OH
 ·Windstream
| reply to xcal78
said by xcal78 :"4) Avoidance vs. Stamina/Armor" This is really 3 seperate things: 4) Avoidance vs. Health pool (Stamina) vs. Mitigation (Armor) If it's going to be separated into 2 categories it should be avoidance vs. effective health.
Effective health includes Stamina and Armor.
--
This post is my opinion.
The fact that my opinion usually agrees with the generally accepted practice of the class communities I'm part of should have no bearing on whether or not you accept it as a valid one.
»wheresmedrink.wordpress.com | |
Gordo74
Premium
join:2003-10-28
Monroeville, PA
clubs:
| reply to Tirael
As a fellow tank, kudos sir.
I catch so much hell for having 34k HP instead of 36k HP for having 2 avoidance/mitigation trinks. The healers love me for it though. Maybe this will stop some of the flaming.
Although, I have never seen fit to gear for threat generation, I'm always around 7k+ threat anyway, no need for "DPS" pieces to build more threat.
--
Ever wonder about the stars? | |
awesome
Premium
join:2008-03-03
Reedsville, OH
·Windstream
| said by Gordo74 :As a fellow tank, kudos sir. I catch so much hell for having 34k HP instead of 36k HP for having 2 avoidance/mitigation trinks. The healers love me for it though. Maybe this will stop some of the flaming. Although, I have never seen fit to gear for threat generation, I'm always around 7k+ threat anyway, no need for "DPS" pieces to build more threat. HP > all for getting into pugs. If I'm trying to get into a pug I'll throw on all my highest stamina items and get 36k hp. Once I'm there I'll throw on the best gear for the job. For example, 4pc T8 for Koralon.
I still keep the vibrating dildo of death from H. toc in my pack just to boost my hp for pug raid leaders. I switch it out for the Ony10 Quel'Serrar when I actually tank.
--
This post is my opinion.
The fact that my opinion usually agrees with the generally accepted practice of the class communities I'm part of should have no bearing on whether or not you accept it as a valid one.
»wheresmedrink.wordpress.com | |
GemSnake
Premium
join:2000-10-19
3rd layer
clubs:
| reply to Gordo74
Like I mentioned before in some other thread, threat gear is the thing of the past. There's a reason misdirect was introduced. There's a reason tricks were introduced. There's a reason misdirect is being reworked to work like tricks.
I can risk going as far as saying mitigation gear is being phased out. Absorbing 5k of a 40k hit is nothing to be excited about. It's about avoiding that 40k hit altogether. In the end, the way things stand right now, it's about stamina gear and avoidance gear. This is all from the warrior tank perspective.
--
"In a fight between you and the world, bet on the world." - Franz Kafka | |
Tirael
join:2009-03-18
Savannah, GA
| reply to Fouloldron
Hehe. About accidental face/fear into a mob "ZOMG" pulls, that is something of a more advanced nature in tanking, imo. I say this because each class has very unique ways of dealing with these situations and it requires some advanced knowledge of how to use those (Avenger's Shield/Righteous Defense, Death and Decay/Death Gripping).
My favorite is the warriors way of dealing with it, because it seems like the most active of the 3 classes. I mean, of course you can charge/TC/Shockwave and take care of it, but my favorite is the use of intervene. You can set up a macro that looks something like this:
#showtooltip Intervene
# show Intervene
/cast [nostance:2] Defensive Stance; [help] Intervene; [target=targettarget, help] Intervene
Then, Challenging Shout (AoE taunt, only if it is more than one extra group), Shockwave, then TC. This not only may keep a caster from getting one-shotted, but it looks cool to see your toon running all over the place at Plaid speed.
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo | |
Zyncotl
Zed X
Premium
join:2002-09-13
Wayne, MI
| reply to GemSnake
Actually Gem the opposite is true, they are phasing out high avoidance in favor of mitigation and stealth. Look at the IIC 20% loss of dodge because avoidance was getting out of hand. The developers kept introducing harder hitting bosses to compensate for the misses. Instead they are doing a decrease in dodge post-toc and seeing smaller more consistent hits become the norm.
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I'd take the time to insult your intelligence, but you probably wouldn't get it. | |
Tehuno
join:2005-01-18
Bartlesville, OK | yeah they did the same thing in sunwell with the -20% dodge. problem was, the bosses still hit like freight trains. getting 3 shot by brutallus in 2 seconds was not what i would call "smaller, more consistant hits" lol. | |
Tirael
join:2009-03-18
Savannah, GA
| reply to awesome
I think some of you guys are missing the point of the thread. This is in no way my complete knowledge of tanking (not to say I have a lot but I do have more than this lol). It was more of a guide for beginners.
@awesome
You know that stamina/armor = effective health (as do I and most seasoned tanks). New tanks would be all "wtf, over" if I said EH instead of stam/armor. As was said, more for beginners, not advanced peoples.
@Gem
Actually, avoidance has gotten too high, so the are introducing Icewell Radiance (Chill of the Throne) in ICC 9-20% dodge). Since dodge makes up a big heap of most tanks avoidance, it is a big hit to the avoidance>all crowd. Even if the hits are "faster, lower damage hits" (btw Blizz never really makes them lower damage quite correctly, but the faster mechanic is definitely there lol), you are still looking at taking increased amount of damage over time. Also, I am sure there will still be a few bosses that have the "ZOMGINCBOSSCDOFDOOM" abilities that will require you to have a higher amount of stamina.
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo | |
awesome
Premium
join:2008-03-03
Reedsville, OH
·Windstream
| reply to Tirael
I think mitigation still has it's place. Do I pick gear because it has armor on it? Not typically, but I still recognize that the 25-man Ony ring is pimp because it has a whopping 800 armor on it. When your armor is reducing damage by 2/3, that's nothing to sneeze at.
Block however, still kind of sucks. | |
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