GTFan
join:2004-12-03
| reply to jasg
Re: Is my "free" cable box really free?
said by jasg  :Ok, the last two posts point fingers at consumers and cablecos for the failure of Cablecard. In my mind, there are at least two other players who dropped the ball... - the design from CableLabs probably could have been more robust and simpler to implement. - the CE companies could have offered Cablecard support where it would have been most useful, on the smaller sets for bedrooms and kitchens (aka 'occasional' TVs). Offering them on the larger, primary sets where a cable box was not as objectionable missed what I think was the real market. It will be interesting to see if this repeats with tru2way... Well, yeah. It's kind of obvious what happened with CCs when you STILL need a truck roll in most areas to pair up a card. But somehow, Comcast implemented a simple website for DTAs where you can have them ship them to you and then activate them yourself.
The difference being, of course, that the CE companies had to roll their own Cablecard stuff and so the cableCos didn't trust the implementation (or the consumer) because it wasn't their equipment.
So, what was the point of having CableLabs certification again? |
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rendrenner
join:2005-09-03
Grandville, MI
| DTA's and cable card driven boxes call all be activated at the consumer level because Comcat already has all of the info pertaining to the equipment. Comcast already knows the host and data ID info for the cards installed in their own box.
I dont doubt that most tech minded consumers could sucessfully pull off a cable card install. However Comcast isnt able to select who their customers are, and the same ones failing on keeping the tv channel on 3 or 4, remembering how to turn off the SAP are going to be the same people who wont be able to access the pairing screen to set up the card. Yes it is listed in the manuel, but again so is many other useful information and truck rolls for NOAA weather coming through on their favorite soaps still happen.
Those will also be the same customers that stomp their feet cover their ears and scream at the top of their lungs that their TV does not need a firmware update to make the cable card work properly. |
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cybrsk8r6
join:2001-11-19
Montgomery Village, MD
| reply to cybrsk8r6
If the cable companies are going to require STBs or DTAs to get a full channel line-up, then they should also be required to allow customers to buy their own boxes, similar to the way it works with modems. While the box would belong to you, the company would activate it and program it for whatever service level you're paying for. When you move the company would de-program the box so it wouldn't work on their system anymore. Of course, I'm sure the cable companies will think up many, many reasons why this just won't work. |
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bicker
join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA
| said by cybrsk8r6 :If the cable companies are going to require STBs or DTAs to get a full channel line-up, then they should also be required to allow customers to buy their own boxes, similar to the way it works with modems. They are required to, and they do allow customers to.
said by cybrsk8r6 :While the box would belong to you, the company would activate it and program it for whatever service level you're paying for. That's exactly what CableCARD does. This has all been discussed, at the highest levels, and standards outlined. It's already in the marketplace. I know, because I have a CableCARD-compatible DVR which I own myself, and it works great. |
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caddyroger
Premium
join:2001-06-11
clubs: 
 ·Comcast
| reply to cybrsk8r6
You can own your box.There TiVo and Moxie right now. If the manufacture don make them then you are out of luck. The cable cards take care of what programming you get. Blame Philips Toshiba Sony and the others for not building the boxes. How many people would want to pay $300.00 plus for a box.
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Caddy |
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bicker
join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA | (I think the boxes, themselves, would retail for closer to $200.) |
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caddyroger
Premium
join:2001-06-11
clubs: | From what I am reading on the TiVo forums the TiVo HD the cheapest, cost TiVo around $400 to build but they are selling them at $300.00. I think It more like $300 then $200 but that my opinion.
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Caddy |
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bicker
join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA
| That's a dual-tuner DVR, not just a single-tuner cable box. Also, note that the TiVo HD actually runs about $700 total, because it will not work without subscription. The TiVo is priced below cost, and the subscription subsidizes the cost of the box. So start with $700 and work backwards to get to the appropriate price for "just a cable box" (remove the hard drive, the second tuner, and a few other bits).
Again... figure $200. That's a pretty reliable figure, from what I've read. |
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caddyroger
Premium
join:2001-06-11
clubs: | Sorry for a Plain Jane box it probably would only cost $200.00 or less.
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Caddy |
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bicker
join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA
| And I really doubt there will be any market, ever, for a premium, personally-owned cable box, without either it also being a DVR (TiVo @ $700; Moxi @ $800), or perhaps being something like a Roku HD box (and I'd figure that would come in at your $300 price point, or perhaps even a little lower). |
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patryan9
join:2004-06-16
Bolton, CT
2 edits | reply to bicker
I don't drink coffee.
said by bicker :said by patryan9 :Conversely, build a crappy mousetrap (1 way cablecard with half-hearted support from the cable co's.) and consumers will ignore you. The question in this thread is whether people find having CableCARD-compatible televisions better than having a box. Which is it? "Better" depends on the application doesn't it? Living room/want DVR >I pick box, bedroom/lcd handing on the wall>cablecard.
said by patryan9 :said by bicker :Cable companies have sabotaged cablecard because it'll cost them a few dollars per month per subscriber in box rental fees. That's a cop-out. I've got a CableCARD-compatible DVR. It works fine. Make up some other excuse. ok... we know that 1 works and was installed fine. How does that scale over all of the Comcast universe? I think your statistical sample of 1 is too small (but that's just me). |
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gchris2203
join:2009-10-15
Lafayette, IN
| reply to patryan9
said by patryan9 :"Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door" Conversely, build a crappy mousetrap (1 way cablecard with half-hearted support from the cable co's.) and consumers will ignore you. Ask a cable installer in your area (as I do every other year or so since 2004 when I got my cablecard TV) about cablecard and he'll dissuade you from trying it. The items that they'll hang their hat on are that it's buggy to install and you'll get no more guide data or VOD. Cable companies have sabotaged cablecard because it'll cost them a few dollars per month per subscriber in box rental fees. In response to your post you seem to have a distorted view on as to why an installer would recommend you not get a cable card. You seem to think they are trained to keep customers from getting them. That is not the case at all in fact.
Fact is they are indeed "buggy" That is the main reason TV manufacturers stopped making cable card TV sets. They have had numerous problems from Firmware issues to Intermittent Issues with loss of channel authorization and problems like those. So yes after seeing numerous problems with them over the years if asked a professional opinion as to what would be better. Most techs would tell you that yes a Converter of some kind would indeed most likely be a better choice. That being said there are plenty of people with cable cards that have never had a problem. However I do think most people have problems with them at some point or another.
It is never an issue of it will make the company "more money" if you get a converter. Majority of techs could care less about that and would not effect their decision on what advice to give you as the subscriber. keep this in mind..if you leave and you have a Converter its not like cause your paying an extra 5 dollars a month that the techs makes an extra 5 dollars a month or anything like that.
Also the fact remains that indeed you do not get the interactive guide and VOD service with the cable card. So yes Those are both very valid reason to go with a Converter. |
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cybrsk8r6
join:2001-11-19
Montgomery Village, MD | reply to cybrsk8r6
This might really make me look at ditching CC, getting DSL from Verizon, and my TV over the air. |
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patryan9
join:2004-06-16
Bolton, CT
| reply to gchris2203
said by gchris2203 :said by patryan9 :"Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door" Conversely, build a crappy mousetrap (1 way cablecard with half-hearted support from the cable co's.) and consumers will ignore you. Ask a cable installer in your area (as I do every other year or so since 2004 when I got my cablecard TV) about cablecard and he'll dissuade you from trying it. The items that they'll hang their hat on are that it's buggy to install and you'll get no more guide data or VOD. Cable companies have sabotaged cablecard because it'll cost them a few dollars per month per subscriber in box rental fees. In response to your post you seem to have a distorted view on as to why an installer would recommend you not get a cable card. You seem to think they are trained to keep customers from getting them. That is not the case at all in fact. Sorry... that's not what I intended at all. I'd rely on the opinion of the tech about whether to bother with cablecard and they did not recommend it based upon difficulty of installation, loss of guide data and loss of VOD. I never felt it was a nefarious attempt to get more money out of me on his part.
I'll also share that UPS drivers tend to mention that there's a very high percentage of satellite dishes that get returned via call tag. Another anecdotal example that there may not be sufficient available competition in many markets. |
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jasg
join:2008-12-13
Seattle, WA
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to neufuse
said by neufuse :repeats? tru2way is pretty much dead it seems like.... Most of the new gen STBs Comcast is rolling out are tru2way boxes - so it will happen. Could fail in the retail marketplace like Cablecard, but the cable companies will move to tru2way. We should get a good idea on the retail future based on what is introduced at the CES show in January. |
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bicker
join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA
2 edits | reply to patryan9
said by patryan9 :said by bicker :said by patryan9 :Conversely, build a crappy mousetrap (1 way cablecard with half-hearted support from the cable co's.) and consumers will ignore you. The question in this thread is whether people find having CableCARD-compatible televisions better than having a box. Which is it? "Better" depends on the application doesn't it? Living room/want DVR >I pick box, bedroom/lcd handing on the wall>cablecard. And both choices are available.
said by patryan9 :said by patryan9 :said by bicker :Cable companies have sabotaged cablecard because it'll cost them a few dollars per month per subscriber in box rental fees. That's a cop-out. I've got a CableCARD-compatible DVR. It works fine. Make up some other excuse. ok... we know that 1 works and was installed fine. How does that scale over all of the Comcast universe? I think your statistical sample of 1 is too small (but that's just me). So surf over to tivocommunity.com (for example -- since that's a place where a lot of CableCARD users happen to hang out) and ask people there. Post a message saying, "CableCARD never works" and you'll get piled under with replies saying, "You're an idiot; of course CableCARD works!"
One of the big problems with the Internet is that people only post when they have problems. The vast majority of experiences, which are positive, are not reported, because, "It works," isn't really something that motivates someone to wax on and on self-indulging in self-pity for getting the short-end of some stick. |
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bicker
join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA
1 edit | reply to gchris2203
said by gchris2203 :Fact is they are indeed "buggy" As a blanket statement, as you made it, that's ridiculous. Almost every cable box and DVR put into service in the last few years has a CableCARD inside. We're talking millions of boxes, and the CableCARDs work in them.
The problems with CableCARD are mostly a matter of proper activation: Human error is most often the cause of problems encountered. There are bad CableCARDs, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that most CableCARDs that have gone bad before first deployment were simply mishandled before installation. I've seen techs in my home handle them like they're CDs or DVDs, instead of miniature electronic devices.
The technology is definitely less robust than I would have designed it, but then again one of the reasons my sales people get on my back, sometimes, is because of the cost structure of our product. They would have an easier time selling it if it didn't cost as much (obviously). Robustness costs money. My (business) customers should be willing to pay extra for that extra level of reliability, but mass-market consumers typically are not. Mass-market consumers are almost all maniacally focused on getting the lowest possible price that they can, thereby motivating, very effectively motivating, their suppliers to cut costs even if it adversely affects quality. We customers have dug our own hole, and now we have to live with the consequences, and take responsibility for our own collective tendencies, even if we, individually, don't behave that way.
said by gchris2203 :That is the main reason TV manufacturers stopped making cable card TV sets. Because consumers refused to pay the extra money for CableCARD televisions.
said by gchris2203 :Also the fact remains that indeed you do not get the interactive guide and VOD service with the cable card. So yes Those are both very valid reason to go with a Converter. Very true. |
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bicker
join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA
| reply to cybrsk8r6
said by cybrsk8r6 :This might really make me look at ditching CC, getting DSL from Verizon, and my TV over the air. If you can get all the entertainment you want over-the-air, I cannot imagine why you wouldn't do that already.
What makes you think DSL from Verizon is going to be as good as HSI from Comcast? (It isn't.) You're better off just getting HSI from Comcast (and getting your over-the-air channels via Comcast cable television for about $1 per month). |
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gchris2203
join:2009-10-15
Lafayette, IN
| reply to bicker
The guy I quoted referred to them as "buggy" so that was why I used the term..if you read further I did explain two of the more common problems with the cable cards.
When they are directly inserted into TV's commonly they will lose channels. The solution is a simple taking the card out and re inserting it but annoying none the less. Their has also been numerous problems with firmware of the years. Cards that just simply stop working or wont activate properly. For instance very recently I was sent to a TC for a cable card not activating. Only Limited basic and Basic HD channels were authorizing. I spent over 2 hours at this house and tried several cards in the TV. All of which were doing the same exact thing. I was getting very frustrated because it appeared to be a simple coding issue...turned out as I was about to leave an email was sent out by a Tech Ops supervisor that Toshiba TVs with cable cards were experiencing problems and wont authorize all channels. Problems like those are what you deal with with cable cards directly connected to TVs.
Yes there are plenty of cable cards in DVRs and Converters. They do indeed work fine in fact almost all cards in Converters of any kind work extremely well. That goes for 3rd party DVRs such as Tivos or Tuners for Computers.
They can have problems with activating but any seasoned Tech knows the process. Its nothing but a thing once you have done it several times. So that generally isnt the issue.
Trust me most of you all make very valid arguments especially from the customers perspective. Im just trying to bring a Techs perspective to the thread  |
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bicker
join:2007-05-10
Burlington, MA
| said by gchris2203 :When they are directly inserted into TV's commonly they will lose channels. Just a note: This has never happened to me (in my DVR). I suspect a lot of this has to do with the robustness of the host device's implementation of the interface. Of course, older devices, such as the CableCARD televisions that were sold in 2005 and 2006, were not designed with as much robustness as more recently designed devices, and were not designed to take advantage of software-driven updates. |
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