LiveWireless
@sbcglobal.net
| Antenna for Hotspot on street
I have a hotspot running in a very busy beach area in Calif.
I'd like to point my signal from one end of city street down street between 2 story buildings. My users are 90% mobile WiFi phones on sidewalk.
So, if possible a tight beam for as long as possible, say @ 1 mile.
I haven't tested performance of different mobile phones as far as return signal. I did use a Nokia WiFi phone VOIP at @ 1/4 mile. It worked, sorta in clear LOS.
At the moment I'm running MT RouterOS4.1 with UBNT Bullet M2HP attached to (?)dbi omni.
Will change antenna to whatever might work best shooting down a street as far as Mobile's will permit.
Thanks,
Hey Mr. Bueno! |
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tx_tower
join:2007-11-13
Blanco, TX
| definately not an omni, as tight a sector as possible if you are set on just using the 1 antenna. smallest we use is 90deg but i dont think that would be a tight enough beamspread for this application.
I think your biggest problem is gonna be the Tx power of the phones. It I was setting this up i would use several MT running WDS or using 2 cards per and BH with 5.2 and then have an omni or sector in the 2.4ghz band. |
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nevtxjustin
join:2006-04-18
Dallas, TX
| reply to LiveWireless
Well...if it worked "sorta" at a quarter mile, then it won't work at all at half mile.
First...the antenna.
A quarter mile is par for a laptop's internal wireless card, so that gives us a general idea a phone would be about the same.
Let's assume you are currently using a 12 dBi omni antenna. Say you replace it with a 15 dBi antenna, a 3 dB increase. That will add one-fourth to a quarter mile, or a few hundred feet more. that's hardly an improvement.
Lets assume its only a 6 dBi omni antenna and you replace it with a 15 dBi. That's a 9 dB improvement. For every 6 dB increase, you double your range. So now you're looking at a little over half mile of "sorta" coverage.
Lets assume it only a dinky 3 dBi antenna. A 15 dBi antenna will get you "sorta" out to one mile.
Second...the radio.
There is no advantage to using a Bullet M. With a single omni antenna, it would preform no different that a standard Bullet, and using a Bullet HP isn't going to work as it will shoot further than the phones will be able to talk back.
I'd use a 18 dBi sector antenna, or 18 dBi patch antenna. Since the gain is about the same, the beamwidth would be about the same, and the patch is likely less expensive.
Third...If I were to do it.
I'd place three radios. One at each end with directional antennas, and one in the middle with an omni. Connect them together with a 5.8 Gig link. |
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LiveWireless
@sbcglobal.net
| I knew I'd needed something other than an omni at each end. I was planning something such as your suggestion Justin.
Not clear as to how to work the 3 AP's if I were to do something like...
If I stick an AP with Omni 1/4 mile equidastant between 2 AP's.
If I have the pipe at one end, am I doing a PtMPT or PtP to the omni or ?
5.8 to the center and out to each AP then 2.4 to users?
Thanks |
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livewireless
join:2006-11-03
La Jolla, CA
| OK,
I got it now.
Thanks guys.
By the way, I'd like to to do some sort of "interactive" advertising to mobile users with backing from local businesses.
Anybody done anything similar?
I believe with a locally captive market, one might be able to get some real interest with local businesses.
I read about Wal-Mart/Sams Club doing some sort of text messaging to patrons. Bring in the text message and get yourself a discount on whatever items advertised. |
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livewireless
join:2006-11-03
La Jolla, CA | Sorry bout the 2 different posting usernames.
I'm same person, missed my meds today...  |
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mrbueno
join:2002-08-03
US | reply to LiveWireless
Hey guy. Speaking of CA, I'll be in Bakersfield CA next week.
I am pretty sick today so I am going to rest, but what everyone said here is pretty much what I would say. |
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viperm
Carpe Diem
Premium
join:2002-07-09
Winchester, CA | reply to LiveWireless
What are you going to be doing in Bakersfield?? |
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nevtxjustin
join:2006-04-18
Dallas, TX
| reply to LiveWireless
You could bring your internet connection to either end of the street, 5.8 directional a8 dBi patch antenna down the street to the center and far end backhaul 5.8 radios and their 2.4 APs.
You could use a garden wall hotspot or captive portal to push adverts to the users. |
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raytaylor
join:2009-07-28
| reply to LiveWireless
I dont think a 1mile link would work without repeaters.
I just tested a 19dbi antenna going to an eee 701 laptop and got just slightly over 500m in 11b mode. If they are handheld phones, I dont think even 200m would work - most laptops can get up to 300m.
This test I did was in a rural area, so in a city street, the 2.4ghz cordless phones will cause too much interference.
You should plan to have a repeater every 400m, that way the client is no more than 200m from an AP. With the cordless phones, 200m might still be too far. |
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kf6ytc
join:2002-03-26
Turlock, CA
| reply to nevtxjustin
Let's assume you are currently using a 12 dBi omni antenna. Say you replace it with a 15 dBi antenna, a 3 dB increase. That will add one-fourth to a quarter mile, or a few hundred feet more. that's hardly an improvement.
Lets assume its only a 6 dBi omni antenna and you replace it with a 15 dBi. That's a 9 dB improvement. For every 6 dB increase, you double your range. So now you're looking at a little over half mile of "sorta" coverage.
Can someone verify these statements seem correct?
Not taking into consideration the tx radiated power of the PDA's etc going from 12 to 15 dbi is a 3 db increase which should (correct me if im wrong) double the radiated power, so how do you come up with 1/4 increase?
Also you mention 6db doubles range, how do you get this figure when every 3 db power doubles?
TJ |
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vincentfox
join:2003-03-18
Davis, CA | reply to LiveWireless
I don't know why you mess with omni, or even sector.
You want a tight beam with as little wasted signal as possible in other directions.
Get a dish. A 19 dBi dish is a good choice, inexpensive, and not too large. |
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nevtxjustin
join:2006-04-18
Dallas, TX
2 edits | reply to kf6ytc
said by kf6ytc  :3 db increase which should (correct me if im wrong) double the radiated power, so how do you come up with 1/4 increase? Also you mention 6db doubles range, how do you get this figure when every 3 db power doubles? That is correct, for every 3 dB increase or decrease, you double or halve your power. Therefore a mere 3 dB increase in power will only give you one fourth about one half more, actually its 1.695 times increase in distance.
Edited to be more precise above.
If you want to double your power, you need a two times (3 dB increase) of power.
If you want to double your distance, you need four times (6 dB increase) as much power to have the same end-point signal level.
If you want to double your coverage area, you need eight times (9 dB) as much power.
How do I get that figure? The inverse square law. Its a fundamental rule when doing wireless calculations. |
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livewireless
join:2006-11-03
La Jolla, CA
1 edit | reply to nevtxjustin
Yes,
I"m using MT RouterOS4.2 Hotspot presently at one end where my pipe is. This location is right on the beach. I'm offering "free" service "loss leader" to users. They must come into store to get access code.
The store gives me Antenna location.
To get to street with @ 5,000 + pedestrians and 50 stores all I need to do is go 50 feet with ethernet to patch panel or small dish.
So, with that I'd like to see if I could captive the local WiFi smartphone market. Sell local interactive adverts, video's, text messaging, maybe VOIP, etc..
So, being a "local" provider gives me the edge (i hope) over the new "4G" providers.
Think this should be a new thread? |
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livewireless
join:2006-11-03
La Jolla, CA
1 edit | reply to vincentfox
I guess I didn't clarify. I'm using a 7dbi omni on top of a Bullet M2HP at a local Hotspot. I had no plans to send a signal down a street with that.
In response to whomever replied about the range on their E notebook. I get clean video (VOIP questionable) on my Nokia n95 8gb from @ 1/2 mile distant from the 7dbi, for what ist's worth.
I"ve seen a small horn type dish.
I'm sure that would be a tight beam. The dish is only @ 8". I believe designed for PtP.
I'd think that would work to get a signal down a street. |
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livewireless
join:2006-11-03
La Jolla, CA
| Thanks J. Galt,
I've been checking sputnik out for awhile. I guess I keep going back to the "get the personal touch" aspect. As far as being more marketable to local users, businesses. Local instead of your "AT&T" type service, which I keep thinking is my leverage.
If they keep proving their ineptitude, things should be looking good! |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
 ·CenturyLink
| said by livewireless :I guess I keep going back to the "get the personal touch" aspect. You can make the page look like whatever you want...
--
The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master.
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nevtxjustin
join:2006-04-18
Dallas, TX | Owww...a live web cam pointing in their direction would be cool as you splash/home/portal page. |
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livewireless
join:2006-11-03
La Jolla, CA
1 edit | reply to John Galt
Yes, done that, I have a goog map pointing to store on my Hotspot login page. Done with MT RouterOS.
I was alluding to being able to offer the local personal service touch.
As compared to having to deal with India or wherever AT&T decides to serve up the freshest curry (nothing against India, love you guys, It's AT&T I want a piece of.)
T |
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livewireless
join:2006-11-03
La Jolla, CA
| reply to nevtxjustin
Most excellent idea dude.
Actually I was thinking of installing a quality IP cam with green board background and do images of Man eating sharks jumping out of water etc...
Photoshop that behind pics of tourists as they line up in front of cam. Take the pic, print it out and frame it. Automate everything.
Hey, business is slow, why not. |
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