grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief
join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
4 edits | DirecTV one pole solution?
Currently have a Ku-multisat dish feeding a SD-DVR. Want to upgrade to Ka/Ku-multisat and HD-DVR. I'm also a HughesNet subscriber (98cm dish). Both dishes mounted on one 8' Sch40 (steel) pole set 36" into concrete (w/anti-spin bar). Four new Belden BC1829BC cables (3GHz/BC/flooded) and a new 10ga solid copper ground wire run to the exterior wall in a 25' trench. Cables/ground wire enter/exit trench through PVC weatherheads and conduit. No splices, indoor cable block, ground wire goes back outside to service entrance common ground. Installation actually exceeds HughesNet minimum standards - which by themselves generally exceed those of DirecTV. No mutual interference between dishes, DTV transponder signals typically run in the mid to high 90s (a few @ 100).
Problem is that a local installer said he wasn't permitted to put an upgrade dish (Ka/Ku-multisat) on the pole with a 2nd dish. He wanted to install a 2nd pole (I just dug the old one out last month) and mount the DTV dish independent of the HughesNet dish. I feel that is totally redundant, when everything he needs is already in place. Plus, I don't want the yard dug up again, and I don't want any more holes drilled in my metal roofed brick house. All he has to do is replace the old dish on existing (approved) pole, connect it to existing (approved) cables and ground wire, replace old DVR, commission new DVR. I'd call that a plum job, all the grunt work is already done for him. A one-pole solution.
I emailed DirecTV customer support to ask why, but - not surprisingly - their response had absolutely nothing to do with the question. Anyone here run into this "one dish- one pole" thing before?
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HN7000S/98cm Prodelin/2w Osiris/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 3 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2009 |
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grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief
join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY | No installers here?
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eakes
join:2000-10-20
Richardson, TX
| reply to grohgreg
Pose your question on dbstalk.com, you will find more installer types there.
Personally, I know of no valid reason to insist on a separate pole for the new dish. If a 'company' requirement, it would be local. I suspect the installer is afraid of a callback because of some problem related to the mounting which would cost him money.
A 'tip' up front would probably get the dish installed as you desire. |
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Airborne29th
join:2008-10-20
Staunton, VA
 ·Alltel Axess
| reply to grohgreg
For one, as far as I remember the Hughes and Direct use different size pole mounts, and there is no stability to mount a full size ka/ku dish on a pole when its not actually sliding down the pole itself, thats why braces are used when its not pole mounted. How many receivers are you going to be feeding from said ka/ku? Just the one HDDVR? |
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grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief
join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
3 edits | reply to grohgreg
Um, you don't use "braces" with a polemount. Don't matter how many dishes are on the pole. My current DirecTV multi-sat dish is mounted on it's own arm, which in turn is clamped to the Sch40 pole which supports the HughesNet dish. All I want to do is remove the current DTV dish and replace it with the upgrade model.
And one HD-DVR only, but I fail to understand the relevancy. The number of receivers supported is a function of the number or cables or the configuration of multi-switches. It has nothing to do with mounting a Ka/Ku-unit as a 2nd dish on a pole
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HN7000S/98cm Prodelin/2w Osiris/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 3 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2009 |
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Airborne29th
join:2008-10-20
Staunton, VA
·Alltel Axess
2 edits | Don't mean to be rude, but look at what type of dish you have on that pole, Thats not the KA/KU dish, the new KA/KU dish is much larger than the old 3LNB dish, and YES you do need braces if it is not being slid down on a pole to support the LNB arm and weight.. Trust me I used to be an Install Tech for 5 years, untill I realised how much Ironwood Screwed people over. Too many contractors in our area installed that dish without the support brackets and they all drooped, either with the SL3 or the SL5.
Now they do make other installation ways, which we used to use a deck corner mount to attach to the old big dish poles that worked sometimes, so that might be an option. But the installer is correct, if he is wanting to be paid and not worry about QC failing his intall, it will need to be installed on a 2nd pole for support. And the number of cables I was just curious about because you said only 4 total between the two dishes, but if your only getting one DVR you will be fine, but if you ever decide to want more you will either need 2 more cables from the LNB or you wont depending on if you get the SWM single line LNB or not. |
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grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief
join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
4 edits | Naw, my neighbor's got the new Ka/Ku - the same one as in your photo. It's only a few inches wider and a few pounds heavier. I measured. Matter of fact, they use identical mounting arms, so weight is clearly not an issue. My Sch40 pole won't even know it's attached. Even with the 1m internet dish alone, it's got a >130mph wind speed rating. We had the Cat 1 remnants of a hurricane blow through here when I first put it up. 75+ mph winds are unusual for KY, but the internet connection and the TV picture were both rock solid
Look at the bottom of your photo, specifically at the vertical face bracket. Can't see them very good, the photo-shop job was a bit sloppy. It's got holes in it for U-bolts. That Ka/Ku vertical bracket is virtually identical to the one on my KU-dish. It's secured to the pole with a pair of 2-3/8" muffler clamps. They'll hold that little (compared to the internet dish) Ka/Ku dish in place just fine
I wanted DirecTV to do the upgrade, simply for the installation warranty. But I'm now beginning to think I should probably just order the hardware only, and specify a self-upgrade.
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HN7000S/98cm Prodelin/2w Osiris/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 3 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2009 |
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Airborne29th
join:2008-10-20
Staunton, VA
·Alltel Axess
1 edit | The pole adapter for the KA/Ku and the original 3LNB dish IS NOT the same size, the 3LNB was an 1" and 3/8th's I think, the KA/KU is over 2" in diameter. I see how your footplate mount is, thats not the concern here, its the issue of droopage with the arm of the dish, thats where the braces go, here is a pic of what I am talking about
And if you post this thread at DBStalk.com you will most likely get the same responce. And the footplates are not identical at all, these are much larger. The dish all together is larger and heaver.. Please just understand, I had installed MANY of these, they will not stay upright without the support of either a solid concreted pole slid down on or the braces if not. |
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grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief
join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
4 edits | Perhaps there was more than one version of the Ku-multisat. Mine in fact has a 2" mounting arm, same as the neighbor's Ku/Ka dish. Given that mine didn't budge an inch during that hurricane, I'm confident that the slightly larger Ka/Ku dish will be equally solid with the mounting plate clamped to the Sch40 pole. That said, I don't see any difficulty in fastening at least one of the braces to the pole either. Just never fooled with it for the Ku-dish, time has proved that - in this configuration - bracing is completely unnecessary.
But as you can see from my profile, I'm a long time member here. Registering at another forum for a one time question just doesn't interest me. Thanks anyway for the suggestion.
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HN7000S/98cm Prodelin/2w Osiris/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 3 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2009 |
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Airborne29th
join:2008-10-20
Staunton, VA
·Alltel Axess
| I can understand that, but next time don't ask for information and support from a DirecTV technician if you don't want to hear it from two that have told you the same thing. I'm not saying that it won't work, but I would not recommend it. And Ive never seen a 3LNB dish that used the same mount. If you want to do it please post pics of the progress because I would like to see how it goes! |
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guhuna
R.I.P Mike
Premium
join:2001-03-31
Brentwood, CA | reply to grohgreg
From what I gather, the D* kaku dish is doesn't like high winds without the braces. The ka band is very picky. A little movement and you've lost signal. |
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grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief
join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
| said by guhuna  :From what I gather, the D* kaku dish is doesn't like high winds without the braces. The ka band is very picky. A little movement and you've lost signal. From the viewpoint of a retired satcom engineer, that's an interesting observation. I was first introduced to ka-band back in the 80s. What you describe represents a shortcoming in the dish engineering, rather than Ka-band signals being "picky".
But that's the kinda input I'm lookin' for. My background has conditioned me to reject all the "just because" excuses. I've engineered things over the years that conventional thinkers said couldn't be done. As such, I refuse to buy an "it's just not allowed" company line without some solid engineering rationale to back it up.
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HN7000S/98cm Prodelin/2w Osiris/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 3 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2009 |
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Airborne29th
join:2008-10-20
Staunton, VA
·Alltel Axess
1 edit | With that being said you should also be open to new things and not reject everything you hear even from veteran-ed technicians.. I know there are other techs on these forums, but anyways Yes guhuna thats the main reason, because the slightest bit of movement will knock out our HD signal to a low unreadable signal. Hence the fine tuning dither settings that must be performed on the dish when aligning it. Because there are 5 satellites being picked up on this dish at different sports in the sky, the spot beam must be correct. This isnt the Ole slap the dish up and go or use your buddy to yell out once you hit a signal. These dishes are best installed with at least a BirdDog signal meter for the fine tuning of the 103 and 99 satellite. That is the reasoning for the braces when its not being installed on a pole, so that it doesn't move. I may not look like its that heavy or big, but its like Dumbo's ears in the wind out there..
Now this isnt to say that you cannot engineer something on your own or make it work on your own. But from a ex DirecTV employee, they wont install it. They're wanting to get paid as well and not have anything affect there job status.. Specially in this economy. I did have a friend that was working on a new mount for the SL3 KA/KU dish to work on the old triple sat dish mount but never got to see if it worked or not. The SL3 doesnt require as much dithering or fine tuning as the SL5 that picks up the 110 and 119. |
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grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief
join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
4 edits | Airborne, you've evidently never aligned a two-way satellite internet system. Compared to pointing a ROTV dish, competently aligning a puny little 1w transmitter with a GEO satellite is an art form. There's nothing magic at all about peaking up a multi-sat ROTV dish, when all the Az/El/Pol relationships are already engineered into the feed.
I clearly understand the wind issue, and - unless that Slimline dish is made out of cellophane - I think you're making much ado about nothing. Installers who do both 2-way and ROTV learn quickly that dish movement is far more critical to the internet dish than to a ROTV dish, no matter how many LNBs are stuck out in front. The 50+ pound 98cm 2-way unit on top of that pole is solid as a rock. Like I said, my internet connection stayed up during a Cat 1 hurricane that passed through here last year. High school physics should tell you that a 40% smaller and 50% lighter dish (of any quality at all) mounted lower on the same pole - will move even less
But you did make one statement with which I must agree. EVERYBODY should "be open to new things and not reject everything you here".
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HN7000S/98cm Prodelin/2w Osiris/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 3 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2009 |
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Airborne29th
join:2008-10-20
Staunton, VA
·Alltel Axess
1 edit | Apparently you don't care to hear anyone else's input so this is pointless, do what you want. Why did you even ask the question in the first place if your only wanting to hear the answer you choose to hear. I have aligned 2way dishes before, we installed Wild blue also, so I do understand the physics behind it. The only point I was going on was what is given to the installers. Why the hell did you not install it yourself instead of coming on here and gripping about how a company runs things? A competent DirecTV employee, whether contracted or not, will not install it that way due to the regulations in what an installer can do without being penalized due to what has been seen that will happen, service calls and call backs due to signal loss over time.
And your Hughes net is solid, know why? Because its properly mounted down on the pole, not affixed to the side of it with u brackets! So going back to what I said before its not as much of the side to side movement as it is the up-down movement. The footplate's that were used with these dishes were not properly made to hold the dish upright solidly without the use of a brace. That is all. Granted they're not as bad as the older side-car 5LNB dishes that were MUCH heaver but still, Ive seen it happen over and over again without the use of a brace and thats in virginia where there aren't tornadoes or many hurricanes!
All in all just do it already and then post your pics and story and then if and when it drops due to no brace let me know, if it doesnt then good for you. Sounds like your mind was set with the 1st installer anyways, buy all your gear and just do it yourself since your a retired sat engineer it should be a piece of cake! Oh and don't forget your drip and service loops  because apparently whoever installed your dish before did.. hope you dont have to add an extension to that dish line also.. |
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grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief
join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
| said by Airborne29th :Apparently you don't care to hear anyone else's input... Telling conclusion. Why else would I post? Among lead, follow, or get-the-hell-outa-the-way folks - I've always been proud to belong to the first group. What I had hoped however not to encounter here - was another entrenched follower.
But your negativity did actually produce some positive results. Unintended consequences I guess. Anyway, it got me pointed toward what looks to be a workable hybrid solution. It's clear you're not interested, but I'll keep the other readers posted.
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Airborne29th
join:2008-10-20
Staunton, VA
·Alltel Axess
2 edits | My only intentions here were to help, and anything i said you rejected listening too, hence your first post where you bucked with the technician that was out doing the job. When i agreed with said technician it showed to me that your mind was already set. And like I had said over and over again, just do it already yourself, you will get better results doing it yourself than relying on an outside source, especially if you already have the knowledge of how the system works anyways.
And your example of lead follow or get the hell out of the way is far from what your showing here. Even though this is turning into a confrontation. I believe your not showing any true leadership traits at all here, your just showing that your mind was set and your not open to hear why the technicians are not able to do the install the way you want. I'm sorry but not everyone is Burger King, you cannot always get things your way unless you do it yourself, which takes the liability off of the install company and puts it on you.
So next time please start your post out as not looking for an explanation as to why the need for a separate pole is needed but Im looking to install this the way I want, what do I need to know about what will happen if I do. No negativity was ment in any of this, I was merely here to inform you of why it is not allowed by the company and what will EVENTUALLY happen if you affix the dish to the side of a pole WITHOUT any support, but please feel free to have it done that way and let me know what happens. Not to say there aren't contractors out there that will do it this way, but I expect to hear about signal degradation down the road.
And if you look back, all my post's have been informational, and in no way meant to be taken as negative, I was mainly just letting you know why and what will happen and DirecTV's regulations. Other than that have a good day. I merely am saddened that you ask for help and information from an installer, and then reject the information given. |
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tobicat
join:2005-04-18
Tombstone, AZ
2 edits | Re: DirecTV one pole solution?
Greg I have one of those 5 LNB dishes. The only purpose I can see for the braces is to stop movement during really high wind. And to maybe stop some pixalization during high wind to prevent complaints from the guys who simply don't understand satellites. Plus I think about half the time these things get bolted to siding and other stuff that simply is not suitable for dish mounting.
I ask the installer to leave them off (did not need any more holes in my stucco) He refused. I think if you get the pole bracket on correctly nothings gonna move that dish.
The brackets on my 9000 are far flimsier and it stays locked on even here in southern Az and we got wind.
I am sure you can mount it up and install it better than most installers.
I don't have a picture and don't want to go up there just to get one. But, I am sure the mounting bracket on mine is much larger than the one in the picture shown by Airborne. Mine has at least holes for 6 bolts. I think it could be bolted directly to your pole with some good U bolts and never move.
Both my 9000 and 7000 are bolted to what amounts to be poles and they have never moved despite high wind and numerous dust devils.
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grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief
join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
2 edits | Agreed. Perhaps this silly rule about not putting two dishes on one pole has more to do with installer competency than it does physics. My thought process is still strongly influenced by my Navy background, I'd probably get lost in the corporate world. But I can see some logic to issuing corporate guidelines premised on the lowest common denominator.
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