Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
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1970 442 W30
clubs:
| reply to swintec
Re: [Help] Excessive Play In Cluth Pedal - Goes Away During Driv
You may need this tool:
KD Tools GM Hydraulic Clutch Line Disconnect Tool - KDS3892
$8.99 new - Sears
»www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1260···1x00003a
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RonnieB223
join:2002-12-26
U.S.A
1 edit | reply to Doctor Olds
said by Doctor Olds  :Possibly true, but the OP so far has not stated his slave cylinder is leaking or that the Clutch Master Cylinder is empty (a sign of a leak). Mine wasn't leaking at first either, which made a diagnosis more difficult. Once my clutch pedal had no pressure I was able to find a leak, it was leaking from an inspection slot on the bottom of the transmission.
I posted my total cost just get a general idea, obviously specific vehicles will require different R&I's even though they use similar parts. $1600 was actually a lot cheaper than I was originally quoted which was about $2000 total.
In hindsight the $1600 was totally worth it, though it did hurt, I love the way the car drives now.
As stated before my car is front wheel drive, this is the only reason I did not repair it myself, I didn't have the correct tools. Rear wheel drive will be slightly easier if you are mechanically inclined, but will still probably require a good deal of time and a bit of money. |
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Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
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1970 442 W30
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| said by RonnieB223 :said by Doctor Olds :Possibly true, but the OP so far has not stated his slave cylinder is leaking or that the Clutch Master Cylinder is empty (a sign of a leak). Mine wasn't leaking at first either, which made a diagnosis more difficult. Once my clutch pedal had no pressure I was able to find a leak, it was leaking from an inspection slot on the bottom of the transmission. Pumping up the pedal to regain function which is the symptom the OP is having isn't the same as what you had. I have seen dozens of the Clutch Master Cylinders fail/leak internally and the Clutch Slave is still good. Plus it is the cheapest and easiest part to change and even if the Clutch Slave were to leak a month later or never at all, the Clutch Master Cylinder would still need replacing based on the symptoms alone as there has been no fluid loss reported by the OP.
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swintec
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Just wanted to give an update. I finally got around to messing with the master cylinder today, fairly warm outside which is what I have been waiting for.
Anyways, I had everything in place and just to make sure I could do the job, I got under the truck to find the bleeder valve. Let alone the fact there is no room to work under there, I believe I found it, directly above where the line from the master cylinder goes into the clutch housing.
I used a socket to get what i thought was the dust cap off but the whole piece came off, including the other end which clearly should have stayed in the clutch housing.  It *looks* like the dust cap and the valve have become fused together, but it is entirely possible there was no dust cap and i took the whole valve off my mistake.
naturally, the master cylinder drained cause I took the valve off, but I have no idea where the fluid drained to, Not ont he floor at least.
I cant get any pressure back. It also appears as though my rear main seal is gone due to a fair bit of oil coating the underside of the transmission and rear of the engine....So it appears it is going to the shop to undue my poor "newbie" mistakes and to also replace that seal since they will most likely have all of that stuff off anyways. $$$$!
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swintec
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Just got my truck back today..Yes, after just over a week.
He installed my master cylinder for me that i was trying to do.
He also had to replace the clutch slave cylinder as he believed this to be gone as well cause he was unable to bleed the clutch system at all.
He also replaced the rear main seal for good measure since he was around that area anyways.
Remember the oil coating the underside that I thought was the rear main seal? That was not the case, it was actually a "cam cover seal" that was gone and allowing oil to pour through and leak out, and end up on the underside of the transmission/vehicle. The huge problem with this was, NO ONE around here carried this $10 gasket so it took 4 days to get it from somewhere else. He didnt seem entirely familiar with this part when I talked with him.....stated something along the lines of "you deal with this part when you rebuild the engine, etc etc. This engine isnt set up like most." Anyone know about these, or dealt with them?
Total bill came to $666.63, this includes 6.4 hours of labor. Sound about right?
He did nto replace clutch, said it was in perfect condition so I would not have gained anything.
Problem is, the clutch pedal feels completely different to me now...It used to be nice and stiff, which I have gotten used to all these years (7 years)....Now, it is very easy to press, in fact, if I rest my foot on it, it will push it down most of the way. The clutch now grabs roughly 3/4 of an inch from the floor as I am letting up.. (actually stalled when I first went to take off because of how different it feels and grabs). So I guess my question is, how exactly IS a clutch pedal suppose to feel in an S10 hydraulic clutch? Solid, firm and no play in the pedal, or "spongey" so to speak?...he says the way i am feeling it now is the way it should be.
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3SGTE
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there
clubs: | Sounds like there is still air in it.
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Doctor Olds
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1970 442 W30
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| reply to swintec
New or rebuilt parts for the clutch? If it is a rebuilt, the springs may have not been replaced in the pressure plate or were replaced with weaker springs or a weaker pressure plate instead of a heavy duty pressure plate. I like a firm clutch so I tend to use new OEM clutch parts or Heavy Duty aftermarket clutch parts.
Since the pressure to bleed the clutch system comes from the Clutch Master Cylinder, if anyone has trouble bleeding the system, it is either the CMC causing it (aka defective) or it is not full of fluid or it is pumping air with fluid from not being bled first. It is the same as bleeding the brakes. The Master (brake or clutch) has to produce pressure to bleed the rest of the system and the fluid flow under pressure has to be free of air otherwise they are pumping air into the other parts of the system, not fluid.
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3SGTE
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there
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swintec
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1 edit | reply to Doctor Olds
said by Doctor Olds :New or rebuilt parts for the clutch? If it is a rebuilt, the springs may have not been replaced in the pressure plate... Well, he replaced only the master cylinder and the slave cylinder...master cylinder was new as I purchased that personally....Slave cylinder was undoubtedly new as he never uses rebuilt parts unless he has to. Any other clutch component was left alone as he said they were in perfect shape and I would not have gained anything by having them replaced.
I guess I need to find a frame of reference to compare the clutch to, and also stop into a different garage to see what they think. Will anything negative happen driving it the way it is? To be honest, it drives great now as far as clutch engaging/disengaging.
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Doctor Olds
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1970 442 W30
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| said by swintec :said by Doctor Olds :New or rebuilt parts for the clutch? If it is a rebuilt, the springs may have not been replaced in the pressure plate... Well, he replaced only the master cylinder and the slave cylinder...master cylinder was new as I purchased that personally....Slave cylinder was undoubtedly new as he never uses rebuilt parts unless he has to. Any other clutch component was left alone as he said they were in perfect shape and I would not have gained anything by having them replaced. I guess I need to find a frame of reference to compare the clutch to, and also stop into a different garage to see what they think. Will anything negative happen driving it the way it is? To be honest, it drives great now as far as clutch engaging/disengaging. In my opinion, it was not a good decision at all to not replace the clutch while the transmission was out when it has a 100K on it. The pressure plate has only so many releases in it (the spring steel diaphragm does wear out from heat, use and age) and the disc has a row of lateral springs that also are affected the same way over time that originally allow smooth operation instead of plate chatter.
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THUD300
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2 edits | reply to 3SGTE
Not for 3SGTE, I hit the wrong reply button... 
To the OP: It should feel the way it felt before, with the release point in the first couple inches of pedal travel.
Try this: engine off, pump the daylights out of the clutch pedal. I mean full stroke, about 2 per second, at least a couple of hundred times. (you read that right.) The pedal feel and release height should gradually improve. You may end up doing this for ten or more minutes, but I have found it to be the only way to get all the air massaged out of these.
Be sure to check the level in the reservoir and top off with DOT 3 brake fluid if needed.
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swintec
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| said by THUD300 :Try this: engine off, pump the daylights out of the clutch pedal. I mean full stroke, about 2 per second, at least a couple of hundred times. (you read that right.) The pedal feel and release height should gradually improve. You may end up doing this for ten or more minutes, but I have found it to be the only way to get all the air massaged out of these. If the cap is on the master cylinder and the cap is on the bleeder valve, where will the air go? Everything I have read, a clutch system (like a brake system) is more or less a "closed system".
Alos, i didnt stop by to update the thread, but I talked to the mechanic again the other day, asking why he didnt change the clutch parts when in there and he again stated that they were all perfect. he also said that it appears someone had been in there before since there was some new parts in there (bolts that were used and stuff).
Now, in the 7-8 years I have had it, I have never had any clutch work done, let alone had the transmission off.
The only thing i can think of is, is that the truck was POSSIBLY a repo or something. The dealer I bought it from may have gotten it from an auction and replaced the clutch (probably had to, repos are usually beat to hell)...If that is the case, that would mean the clutch was redone around 33,000 miles which would mean there is only about 67,000 on this clutch. That is the only reason I can come up with for why the clutch parts would be in such good shape and also have after market pieces in there.
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THUD300
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| reply to swintec
I know, it doesn't make sense, but it has worked for me on several occasions as a dealer tech. The air rises out of the system into the reservoir.
The last one I did, my brother's 95 S-10, same thing... new cylinders, bleed and bleed and bleed and pedal not worth a crap until I just pumped it to death, and it's been good ever since.
Think about how the cylinders that were replaced would 'pump up', it's kind of the same thing....nothing to lose by trying it.
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tcope
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| reply to swintec
Which I would have looked at this sooner. Had an S10 with the same problem.
I could find nothing leaking but I had to pump the clutch to built up pressure. I replaced the master and all was good.
OP, there should only be about an inch play in the clutch. I'm guessing something was not done correctly when they installed the pasts and now they just don't want to loose money by going back and correcting it... since it still works.
I also removed the master cyl cap and pumped the clutch (slowly as not to cause the fluid to spill out). I think I recall that reading that this can work out air in lines. |
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swintec
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| I pumped it really fast earlier today and again this afternoon when I had a chance, with the engine off. There is now about 3/4" of an inch of play in the pedal..much better than it was.So it looks like there was quite a bit of air still int he system and it is coming out of it on its own. (The three hours of driving I did yesterday most likely helped to)....Will see what happens. Thanks for all the tips!
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tcope
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Sandy, UT | If the cap is on, it's going to be more difficult to force the air out. |
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Doctor Olds
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1970 442 W30
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| said by tcope :If the cap is on, it's going to be more difficult to force the air out. The air isn't trapped in reservoir or under the cap. The air (in the form of multiple small bubbles which is why they are hard/harder to get out) is much further down past the seals of the Clutch Master Cylinder piston and as far down as the Clutch Slave Cylinder and needs to get up to the cap area so the cap should remain on. Especially since Brake Fluid is hygroscopic and readily absorbs moisture from the air when exposed. The cap on any reservoir that holds Brake Fluid needs to remain on and sealed (it may even be stamped with "Keep Tightly Sealed" right on the cap). It should only be removed to check the level and top off the fluid as needed.
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tcope
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| I understand... but the general notice of leaving the cap on does not consider that there could be air in the lines. I understand that the air if further down the lines but as you mentioned, it needs to be worked up into the cylinder. If there is no less pressure near the opening then it would be more difficult to move the air in that direction. The cap is still only removed from a short amount of time, just several minutes, which the clutch is pumped. |
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Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
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1970 442 W30
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| said by tcope :I understand... but the general notice of leaving the cap on does not consider that there could be air in the lines. I understand that the air if further down the lines but as you mentioned, it needs to be worked up into the cylinder. If there is no less pressure near the opening then it would be more difficult to move the air in that direction. The cap is still only removed from a short amount of time, just several minutes, which the clutch is pumped. A few minutes open to the atmosphere is too long and degrades the life and performance of the fluid and will cause corrosion inside the cylinders. The system is designed to be sealed by the cap and allow bubbles/trapped air go to the top as the total volume is unchanged under the cap and the total amount of air/fluid is the same inside and only the location/distribution changes as the air rises to the very top of the reservoir and the fluid goes down where the air was trapped previously. It takes vigorous pumping as posted by THUD300 to dislodge the smaller bubbles as they try to stick where they are and need to be dislodged by the rapid movement which cannot be done with the cap off.
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3SGTE
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there
clubs: | reply to swintec
Brake fluid open to the atmosphere for a few minutes is not a problem.
A few days might be an issue, but not a few minutes.
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