Dropper
join:2008-09-18
Anchorage, AK
| reply to Ibezombie
Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue
The white damage hit cap is over 700, but yeah, there's no way someone with 415 hit will miss even 10% of the time. To me that would equate to having a pvp hit rating - about 6%. Fine for opponents at your level, but not bosses who are 3 levels (I think) above you.
Mine is 427 due to a gear mismatch. It'll be fixed when I get the t9 shoulders so I'm not worried, I'm using the 10 man drop from Ulduar that looks like t8. It's alright and will do for another week or so until I finish up on daily heroics.
I have 3 toons to gear and it's difficult to force myself into heroics for my main (the rogue) when I could gearing up my paly healer or messing around with my hunter. |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228
| reply to Ibezombie
Sample size is a full 3-boss fight, like ToC Beasts, then Jaraxxus and Twins, the lowest miss rate was 9%, I don't get why I'm missing so much in beasts, all of them are being hit from behind, so you get parry out of the equation...
My expertise is at 31/31 right now.. |
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Staulkor
@rhsnet.org
| 10 or 25 man?
I'll have to see if I can find the data for last weeks ToC25, I don't have the data from the ToC10 pug I did on Saturday.
I will get fresh data from ToC25 tomorrow, but I have brand new weapons. ToC10 PuG on Saturday was unbelievably lucky for me. Picked up 3 weapons in the same run. Got Dirk of the Night Watch (1.4 Dagger) off Jaraxxus, immediately enchanted it and replaced Web Death with it. Then Anub dropped both The Lion's Maw (2.6 Axe), and Westfall Saber (1.5 Sword). I was the only melee on the run, no other class could use the weapons so they all went to me.
Axes and Swords were at 0, leveled them to 400 in a Black Temple achievement run later that night, lol. Spreadsheet showed Hack'n'Slash with the Axe/Sword being better than using The Grinder (2.6 Mace) and Dirk of the Night Watch for Mace/Dagger, so I'm trying them out now.
I was #1 for the 5 or so attempts at ToGC25 we made last night. We were missing too many people from our core group, so that went nowhere. I did beat our raid leader who is Mutilate and still out gears me (his gear score is about 100 higher than mine on wow-heroes, he's #5 Rogue on the server, and I'm #40 something now). Beat him on all beasts attempts, and all VoA bosses. So far I'm pretty happy with Hack'n'Slash. We'll see how it goes tomorrow night for a fresh ToC25.
I'm hoping to get Bracers of Swift Death crafted soon, just need to get the crusader orbs, have all the other mats. I have more hit and more expertise than I need after swapping gear around. |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228 | reply to Ibezombie
Do you stack armpen with hack and slash? AP? Agi? |
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Staulkor
@rhsnet.org | Right now I am stacking Agi, mostly because I'm waiting to swap out pants before I re-gem, but also 'cause the spreadsheet shows Agi is still best for me to stack. I think after a couple more pieces of gear change I may need to stack ArP instead. |
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Azdranax
@bankofamerica.com
| reply to Ibezombie
Yes, you should ALWAYS use wound poison only in combat spec (which should include 3/3 spec in vile poisons) to max dps unless the fight has adds, like Onyxia, and you have T8 2 set bonus - then and only then use Deadly MH. Top dps, for either Mut or combat are ruptureless rotations, focusing only on Envenom hits for Mut and Eviscerate hits for combat. Note: always make sure SnD stays up though, and if absolutely required, use rupture only to get HfB up on Mut spec - if a warrior is in the raid this should never be necessary.
Again, if you don't believe this is a better and higher dps rotation, go do the dummy tests and surprise yourself. Rupture is a waste of combo pts regardless of spec, and the dps it offers is pitiful, as one Envenom/Evis crit is higher total dps than 2 full 5pt rounds of rupture (and i promise you get more than 1 Envenom/Eviscerate off in 32 secs). Just because your gear gives you a special add for rupture doesn't make it worth using, and saying T8 bonuses are better than using T9 gear is laughable, unless you are only talking about energy refresh on the Onyxia fight, then you would actually be right. |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228 | reply to Ibezombie
How often the T9 2 piece bonus from rupture procs? I rarely see a 40 energy "save" during fights (specially bosses), I rarerly use rupture...
almost there for the 4 piece T9 bonus.. just to get a couple of trophies... |
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Azdranax
@bankofamerica.com
| Not enough to justify using it is the simple answer, maybe once ever 30 to 45 secs on average in Mut spec during dummy tests, but no where near the same dps as ruptureless (or near ruptureless as to keep up HfB) while hammering away on Envenom 4 and 5 pt hits. |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228
| reply to Ibezombie
Not even for HfB... there's always someone else doing a bleed, either a warrior, feral o another rogue
I did some "tests" by doing Expose Armor and my dps increased about 400-500, evis were crittig higher (almost 14K) when EA was running.. then went live to do it in Anub 25.. was doing 6.5K on that fight by using EA, other fights like beasts and Jaraxxus I was hitting barely 6K..
Now I need a belt with 2 sockets to increase my armpen 40 more, and yes, another weapon, that Anub 25 Axe is sweet, but didn't drop this week. |
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Staulkor
@rhsnet.org
| reply to Ibezombie
Gotta take a closer look at the spreadsheets, but I may be switching to Mutilate.
I picked up Lionhead Slasher (ilvl 245 1.5 Axe), and went lumberjack since I already had The Lions Maw (ilvl 232 2.6 Axe) for a MH. Then later in the same run I picked up a Twin Spike (ilvl 245 1.8 Dagger). I have a Dirk of the Nightwatch (ilvl 232 1.4 Dagger) for an OH in my bag already, so that finally makes for a good mutilate weapon set.
Punched my gear into the Mutilate spreadsheet and it showed a theoretical ~7600dps. IIRC, Combat spreadsheet showed ~7300dps with my current gear. I need to look over the Combat sheet and make sure it matches what I currently have, 'cause I changed some other gear out since the last time I used it.
As far as Expose Armor goes, it's a waste if you have a warrior in your raid, and you should NEVER use if you have a warrior tanking. The Warrior's Sunder Armor gives more armor reduction than our EA does (unless you spec Improved EA which is a waste of talent points). Also a warrior tank needs to be able to sunder for threat generation.
Is there a mod that makes it easier to see if a bleed effect is active on the target? I never have a problem seeing my own garrote or rupture on the boss's debuff bar, but trying to watch for other bleeds may be difficult. My regular 25 man has 1 other Rogue, and I know he keeps rupture up as much as he can, plus we have a couple of warriors, and a few hunters. Can't remember what pets they have, but I know a couple of hunter pets put bleed effects on their targets. With that raid composition, I could easily favor extra envenoms over using rupture. However I know in most of the 10 mans (which are usually pugs) that I do, I'll need to keep rupture up. |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228 | reply to Ibezombie
naa, I just look to the HfB button, if it's lit someone is doing some bleed.. |
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Staulkor
@rhsnet.org | Didn't think of that. Last time I played Mutilate, you still had to hit it 3 times to stack it, and hit it again to refresh it before it expired. I hated that. |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228 | reply to Ibezombie
Nope, it's one click and it last a full minute! |
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Azdranax
@bankofamerica.com
| reply to Staulkor
In those rare raid occasions that you do need to rupture to get off HfB, you can simple use a single combo pt rupture, immediately hit HfB and get to business on maxxing dps for the next 60 secs. Its a waste of time and combo pts to try to get off a 4-5 pt rupture - just pop one Mut and hit it to get the dps meter moving upward.
Tough call between combat and Mut with those weapon combos - I prefer combat spec and the burst dps is much greater, as well as typically overall especially if fights have a few adds in them. Hack/Slash is the lowest dps spec for combat btw, in terms of comparable weapons - please see the attached link for comparison (weapons only) for all types of rogue weapon choices - Mace/mace (or) dagger is best, Fist/dagger is 2nd and swords are last, as the ArP or crit stacking is much better than the static 5% hack/slash, that will typically equate to 3.5% of your total dps. This link will show you the "best" weapons for each spec, but again, don't trust charts, run the dummy tests for proof. »www.razorvine.net/rogue/fists.htm |
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Staulkor
@rhsnet.org
| Uhm, you linked a re-hosted Shadowpanther fist weapon page.
Which according to Shadowpanther's spec sheet, 18/51/2 Hack'n'Slash and CQC are tied for best Sustained DPS, but worst for burst DPS. Mace/Dagger has better burst DPS in this spec, but worse sustained.
All 3 (Mace, Hack, CQC) 15/51/5 Ruptureless Combat specs are dead even for being best BURST DPS (for Combat), but Mace/Dagger pulls ahead doing slightly more sustained.
51/31/7 Mutilate has the best Burst DPS of any spec, but it also has the worst sustained DPS of any spec.
51/18/2 Ruptureless Mutilate has better sustained DPS than regular Mutilate, but worse burst DPS. It's sustained DPS is not as good as Combats.
I re-ran everything through the spreadsheet(s). 18/51/2 Hack'n'Slash (Standard rupture rotation) with The Lion's Maw (MH) and Lionhead Slasher (OH) ended up being tied with Mutilate (IIRC 51/13/7, I will have to re-run it with the ruptureless Mutilate build) using Twin Spike (MH) and Dirk of the Night Watch (OH). Both were right at 7600DPS. The 15/51/5 Ruptureless Hack'n'Slash was about 200DPS behind with the same weapons. Using The Grinder (MH) and Dirk of the Night Watch (OH) for a Mace/CQC Ruptureless build was even further behind.
Ideally, with what I have on me right now, since Mutilate is better on some fights, and Combat is better on others. Going dual spec, and switching between the 2 depending on the fight would probably give me the best possible DPS I can have over an entire raid. I don't have the gold to try this right now, maybe in a couple weeks.
Last night we attempted ToGC25, but had too many of our regulars missing to get anywhere. I was able to sustain 6800DPS on Gormok (from pull until worms came out), and that was with having to stop DPS to chase Snobolds down. Hunter was in 2nd, doing almost 1000DPS less, and Mutilate Rogue (who again out gears me, however I now have the same MH and OH daggers he's using if I wanted to use them) was a close 3rd. |
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Azdranax
@bankofamerica.com
| I think we are on the same page with the info, just not necessarily with how we get there. I rarely trust the spreadsheet to give me the answers (not to say its not very useful info though), I'd rather dummy and raid test them - and in those raid/dummy tests, combat mace/mace-dagger is the highest sustained dps I've seen - which based on your post it appears you agree (that is, since I only run ruptureless).
I do run dual specs - have for months with all my 80 toons. Between Mut and combat, about 90% of fights I stay combat for overall dps. Based on your numbers, we are very close in dps - ToC 25 is usually right at 7k after completing all 5 fights - with beasts being lowest due to running and knock backs in phase 3 and Twins easily highest with damage buff.
In all honesty, the variances in these specs is very minute once you have the correct spec and rotation, and gear will then play the biggest part. In truth, my preference is CQC fist/dagger, and if I were to get the 245 fist from ToGC10, I would retire the other combat specs until IC comes out.
BTW - the link I included has all the weapon types for rogues, except axes, and shows the BiS (based on weapon/dps only, specifically the MAEP score, since I agree that Agil is most important stat for combat spec) not gear or rotation). Again, for me just informational, I don't necessarily judge what to use based on any lists or spreadsheets, as I have items that show higher BiS ratings that I do not use due to actual raid and dummy test results. Thats why I encourage other players to do the same.
Good luck in ToGC in the future. |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228
| reply to Ibezombie
I just crafted myself the i245 Leather Bracers, they have tons of stats including some armpen, that put me 51.1% armpen unbuffed that's w/o banner of victory.. still need that and Grim Toll or the Thorim hard mode trinket, which dropped last night and was taken by a hunter (that had the grim toll equipped) |
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Sithra
join:2008-02-07
| My mutilate Rogue has the grand sum of 0 ArP. 5/5 T8.5 at the moment, was slightly behind a combat rogue who was using 4/5 T9 (245 stuff)
46.7% of my damage totally ignores armor anyway. (based on some checking last night  )
That said I haven't avoided gear with ArP on, that's just the way it's worked out. I am slightly high on hit though. |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228
| reply to Ibezombie
Yeah, t8 4 piece bonus way more different than T9, I'm on the Evis combat spec right now, since T9 bonus rupture procs so little it's a joke, I'm one piece away from t9 bonus, even have the trophy but not the emblems, perhaps today I can get the 75 and boost my DPS a bit.
If I could get a seccond "good dagger" I can switch to mutilate for some fights and combat for others.. although armpen doesn't go well with muti.. |
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Shadowmunger
@army.mil
| reply to Staulkor
use the add on called Cutup avaliable on curse. It used to track HFB too, but now it tracks Rupture and SnD It is really awesome add on to use along with Natur.
For all other readers I was recently doing 25 Toc I was 2nd in the damage done overall and number 17th ranked for gear...Gearscore was the addon which is tracked in Recount. I was actually quite supirsed and when i told my guildlies by reposting the data i had a bunch of tells asking me my rotation. Basicly I am constantly hitting mutilate and envenom regardless if SnD still has 15 seconds on it. Snd never falls off and repture never comes down occatiionally hfb came off but thats because i was trying to avoid getting one shotted =D
i am almost hit capped by maybe 50 or so rating
I also found out that after a certain point haste has very little affect. I have the haste tinker from engineering and when SnD is up and my 444 haste rating trinket procs i hit the other haste CD i only get 1 sec weapon attack speed w/over 1k of haste >
so i am about to drop that for an agi enchant if there is one or just raw AP |
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