Staulkor
@rhsnet.org
| reply to djlar
Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue
Armor chart doesn't show any 232 belts, it goes from 226 to 245.
226 belt from Yogg-Saron 10 man Hard Mode (Soul-Devouring Cinch) has 2 red sockets on it. That would be 3 sockets total with a belt buckle.
LW Recipe belt, "Death-Warmed Belt" has 1 blue and 1 red, so that'd be another 3 socket belt with buckle.
245 belt from Twins ToC25 has 1 yellow socket. The 258 version of that belt (same fight on heroic) has 1 red and 1 yellow. |
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Azdranax
@bankofamerica.com
| reply to Ibezombie
Depending on the specific fight, top rogue dps will be either Mut spec with envenom finish for T9 geared on single target, or combat spec Mace MH/mace/dagger OH for fights with adds. As far as gemming and stats, hit at 315 is critical, as that is poison cap, white damage cap is unattainable and pointless, expertise is next for Mut spec, and needs to be above 25 at a minimum, with auto spec for Exp in combat, hitting 25 is cake, but closer to 36 is much better, next crit - stacking Agil will = higher sustained dps than ArP all day, then ArP and finally haste.
Raid makeup plays a big part as well, as single target dummy practice I am at 3500-3600 dps both specs. In 10's, Mut is almost always better dps single target, but combat cd's will allow more burst damage for fights like XT heart kill for hard mode. 10 mans I am easily over 5k either spec, but usually about 600dps ahead Mut spec single target. 25 mans I am over 7k Mut, about 6.5k combat for non-dps boosted fights with rogue-special fights like Ony 25 at 9-10k when ToT/FoK whelps using Adrenaline.
If you have the 4 weapons to use both specs, you will be top dps every fight depending on adds or single-target if you are geared and using correct rotation. BTW, hack/slash is not top combat dps as the proc rate of 5% is static, whereas if you use combat mace ArP is stacking and added points to dagger crit increase is stacking so white damage is far greater than static 5% hack/slash.
This is based on many raids and numerous dummy tests, not perfect rotations and potential numbers, just run the dummy tests over and over and it is clear, don't trust the calculator. I have 9 232 weapons so the gear tests are equivalent. Also, combat spec should use wound poison only, if you don't you are doing it wrong. Check my toon on Azjol-Nerub if you want to see the specific builds. Now go top the dps charts rogues... |
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Ibezombie
join:2009-06-12 | I should use wound poison on both weapons? |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228
| said by Ibezombie  :I should use wound poison on both weapons? If you still have your T8 bonus. no.. it need deadly poison for it to work, most rogues use Wound on MH, Deadly on OH |
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Dropper
join:2008-09-18
Anchorage, AK
| reply to Ibezombie
When the new heroic first arrived and I got the lvl 219 mace I decided to switch to maces. Since then I was given the tankard by a guildee and I'm still not sure if it lowers or increases my DPS over the heroic mace.
I've got a few more dailies to do to get the shoulders I need that will drop my hit to the poison cap (currently about 100 over), increase my expertise to that cap (currently 22) and will also increase all my other DPS stats - haste, crit, ap, so I know that will make a difference, along with the energy bonus from 2x t9.
I don't have a fast OH mace so I've been using the fist weapon from Flame instead. I did this because you need a fast OH for the energy bonus from sub and as anyone who's played a rogue for a while knows, the biggest upgrade you can get in DPS always comes from upgrading your weapons to the highest base DPS possible. Other things ARE important too, but this usually works without fail.
However things have stagnated. I did switch to maces because it has a definite DPS benefit, but I can't really see the value in using up a point to get 1% extra crit in an offhand weapon when I'm already at 40% crit on both.
As for armor pen, I've checked the gear on the Lunacy rogue that does the EJ rogue guide and she (he?) is gemmed 100% armor pen. I figure I get almost the same armor pen benefit from my mace spec as she does from her gems, but I don't have her gear so I'm not ready to go full throttle on armor pen.
Gear does make a difference there, you need full lvl 226 gear with either 4xt8 to gem armor pen (which is as good or maybe better than 5xt9 for a rogue because t8 has a significantly better 4x bonus).
But it seems I've stalled on DPS no matter what. I do no better than when I was using lvl 213 weapons, around 5K on tank and spank, my rotations are EXACTLY as stated for combat rogues in EJ (4pts then slice'n'dice, 5 pts then rupt, 4-5 pts and depending on slice'n'dice time either eviscerate or refresh slice'n'dice.. repeat until boss dead).
I use as many speed enhancement as possible simultaneously for maximum energy benefit (that sub talent again) and almost never have to wait for energy for combo building sinister strikes.
So I don't get it. According to what I'm reading I should be doing far more DPS. I still out dps pretty much anyone I raid with by a lot, usually several percentage pts in overall damage above the next best. But unless it's just down to the fights being more complicated, spending more time moving around and not dpsing, I don't get why my DPS numbers don't go up with better gear, and sometimes even go down. |
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dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
| Upgraded weapons do (depending on spec and speed) offer a dps increase, but don't expect it to be a huge increase just from a better weapon- especially if you're using a sub-optimal combo like mace / fist.
If you're talking about raid dps, it varies so much depending on the fight, buffs, and RNG that you'll not be consistant enough to really judge the difference.
At your gear level 5k dps is quite good. If you're not dying, doing what you're supposed to on a given fight, and among the top dps for your raid- don't worry about it. |
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siscothekid
join:2009-08-28
Lynwood, CA
| reply to Ibezombie
said by Ibezombie :Okay since 3.2.2 came out I changed my Mut/Prep pvp spec to straight up assassination spec I have shadowbite and the fleshshaper, bad daggers I know. One with berserking one with mongoose. And the dps in that spec is significantly lower than my combat. I was on onyxia 25 last night and before the whelps came out I was pulling 6.7k dps. Top of the chart. And this is with maces in combat. I thought armor pen got nerfed. I haven't seen a decrease in dps or damage what so ever. Maybe I don't know the assassination spec rotation. So here it is Garrotte HfB Mut SnD Mut Mut Rupture Mut Mut Envenom mut mut rupture so on and so fourth until HfB gets low, then I pop that. I'm specced so that my envenom keeps SnD up so I don't have to refresh that. It seems as if I should be getting better DPS considering in combat I have to save combo points and hit SnD which takes all of them and does no damage. Where here I'm using envenom to keep it up, which, by the way doesn't use my deadly poison. Those crit for usually around 9k. So why is my combat spec getting 3.7 on heroic dummy and my assassination getting 2.7? please keep flaming low. I've been combat since I started playing. I have been using this rotation and it has worked alot better for me
Garrotte
hfb
SnD
mut
mut
rupture
if SnD if about to wear just envenom eaven if its only one combo point.
If garrotte is a about to wear vanish and remember you also will be getting the energy regen from vanish
then just keep up normal rotation. |
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Staulkor
@rhsnet.org
| reply to Dropper
Do you have another OH to choose from? That fist is really not very good for us. Webbed Death, while a lower item level, is a much better OH than the FL fist. There are several other weapons that drop out of Ulduar that would make a better OH.
The Tankard and Adelar maces are pretty even, so close it'd be hard to tell the difference. Use whichever one has the stats you need more.
You do not stack ArP for 4pc T8. ArP does nothing for Rupture damage, and 4pc T8 is all about Rupture.
The 1pt in CQC when you're Mace/Dagger (or in your case Fist) like that is "wasted" if you put it anywhere else. You'd normally have to spend that on something like Endurance or another non-damage increasing talent. Better to put it there and bump your OH attacks to 41% crit, then throw it somewhere else. |
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dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
| reply to siscothekid
said by siscothekid :I have been using this rotation and it has worked alot better for me Garrotte hfb SnD mut mut rupture if SnD if about to wear just envenom eaven if its only one combo point. If garrotte is a about to wear vanish and remember you also will be getting the energy regen from vanish then just keep up normal rotation. With that opening rotation SnD will expire within a couple seconds of hitting rupture. Keeping SnD up with Envenom should be your first priority.
Instead:
Garrote
HfB
SnD
Mut
Mut (if at 3 combo points, if not pool energy)
Envenom
Mut to 4-5 combo points
Rupture
Repeat
There are fights in which it's not possible to open from stealth. Mut then SnD, doing what's necessary to activate HfB and refresh SnD with envenom. Often another player will have bleeds that can be used to activate HfB before you have rupture up.
Don't worry too much about garrote wearing off. Vanishing after overkill wears off to activate overkill again is useful- just don't screw up your rotation for the sake of another garrote; otherwise feel free.
If Rupture has plenty of time left and an Envenom + the next Mut leaves you 4 points, don't burn envenom immediately unless you're approaching energy cap. Instead pool energy a few seconds to around 80 as rupture time allows- you want to keep the Envenom buff up as much as possible in addition to SnD, HfB and Rupture.
It's not usually an issue, but don't let energy build to 100% when pooling energy. A good time to refresh HfB is when rupture still has a few seconds left but energy would cap before it runs out. |
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siscothekid
join:2009-08-28
Lynwood, CA | Good points, im still working out all this little mistakes i make on rotations, rogue is my first 80 and ive learned moust of the stuff the hard way.. |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228
| reply to Ibezombie
Until I can get more viable daggers I won't be switching to muti, I just got the one from ToC 10, it's 1.8 sec dagger, ideal for main hand, now, I need a 1.5 or 1.4 one for OH and then I can go muti.. and that dagger will have to do for Fist/Dagger combat, the other I had it's same speed, less dps of course..
Then I have to re-gem for agility... |
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Dropper
join:2008-09-18
Anchorage, AK
1 edit | reply to Ibezombie
"Do you have another OH to choose from? That fist is really not very good for us."
Yeah, it's the highest DPS OH I have that's fast, but I also have a lvl 213 1.4 speed sword and lvl 213 1.8 speed dagger. The rest of my weapons are lvl 200 10 man naxx drops.
If the dagger was 1.4-1.6 I'd be using it for sure, but at that 1.8 it might be too slow, I'm not certain. I'd prefer to use it and might test it out in the next raid.
The fist weapon is definitely a compromise, but I've nearly always been forced into using fist weapons because Blizzard seems to object strongly to me seeing a dagger drop in a raid that would actually be useful for my OH.
Can't remember what I put that extra pt into - probably endurance, but thanks for the reminder, I'll move it to CQC if I don't use the sword instead.
The other thing that's bothering me is this obsession with armor pen that Blizzard has. I know Blue talked about overhauling it so it became significantly more useful, but that hasn't happened yet and again, due to my spec it seems haste is more valuable.
So atm I haven't replaced my belt or pendant with lvl 226 badge rewards because they would each cause me to lose 2% haste in return for about 2.2 armor pen. I really don't get why they did that. |
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Staulkor
@rhsnet.org
| Webbed Death is the only 213 weapon ranked higher on the chart than the 219 Fist you currently have. The dagger would be worse for you for sure.
I feel your pain. I haven't even seen a better OH drop for me, let alone had a chance to roll on one. Most of them seem to have a drop rate of 8% or less. I need to run Ulduar more to increase my chances of seeing something better drop for my OH. Been running ToC10/25 for months, got my MH from ToC10, but haven't ever seen an OH drop. Unless I get into some hard mode ToC10/25 soon, I probably won't see a better MH until Icecrown. |
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Sithra
join:2008-02-07
| The fast OH is a bit of a myth for moot, I've tested slow and fast over the last year and there really isn't a noticeable difference, it's certainly not going to make any more than around 50dps difference either way. If you have a choice use the one with the higher DPS.
Since the envenom and DP change in 3.2.something my DPS went off the scale, good times. |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228
| reply to Ibezombie
Yeah, even with my "slow" OH at 1.8secs the boss (which is the one really matters on raid time) gets 5 stacks of poison quick, envenom on muti has a chance of not consuming the poison and on combat the boss will always have 5 stacks regardless.. Now, faster weapons seem to miss a lot more.. so maybe there aren't many more fast OH out there. |
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Staulkor
@rhsnet.org
| reply to Sithra
Obviously you don't understand Combat builds, which is what we were talking about. Faster OH = more energy regeneration. More energy = more combo point generating moves = more damage done and more DPS. Combat Potency is what does this. "Gives your successful off-hand melee attacks a 20% chance to generate 15 energy". Which is why hit rating is more important for combat. Fewer OH misses = more energy.
For Mutilate, faster OH is not as important, it is only for DP stacks on Mutilate. With the change to Master Poisoner that allows Envenom to not consume DP, it's very easy to keep 5 stacks up, you don't have to worry as much about them dropping off and trying to get them back up quick, so a slower MH can be acceptable, however it's usually better/safer to use a faster. For Mutilate you want a lot of crit, since energy regeneration comes from the Focused Attacks talent, 100% chance to gain 2 energy every time you crit. You only need enough hit rating for specials and poisons to never miss.
Now if your OH is too slow and not keeping your DP stacks at 5 at all times, then you're Envenoms aren't doing max damage since they are based on how many stacks of DP are applied at the time of use. You're also losing DPS from not having 5 stacks ticking. |
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Sithra
join:2008-02-07
1 edit | said by Staulkor :
Obviously you don't understand Combat builds, which is what we were talking about. Yeah thanks for that insight on combat builds in a thread about assassination specs.
"Obviously"... jesus wept. |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228 | reply to Ibezombie
I'm at 435 hit and I'm missing 10% ... with a slower off hand.. 15% miss with a faster off hand (i213), |
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Sithra
join:2008-02-07
| said by djlar :I'm at 435 hit and I'm missing 10% ... with a slower off hand.. 15% miss with a faster off hand (i213), Technically not possible for these stats to occur unless it's a very small sample size. |
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Staulkor
@rhsnet.org
| reply to Sithra
Look at the last few responses, we were talking Combat. Or do you only read the first post and skip everything in between? This is really a Rogue discussion, not just Mutilate, not just Combat.
435 is overkill on hit, and as Sithra said, those stats are technically not possible. 15% miss rate your hit would have to be in the low to mid 200's.
Your hit doesn't need to be higher than 317 for your poisons to never miss. Your melee miss should be around 11-13% at that hit rating IIRC. You can do with even less hit depending on your raid make-up, but 317 will make you good to go no matter how the raid make-up ends up. See if you can switch some stats around. If your expertise is not at 26, swap some gear/gems that have hit on them for some that have expertise until your expertise is at 26. Then ditch some hit for more agi to increase your AP and crit. |
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