Staulkor
@rhsnet.org
| reply to dynodb
Re: [ Classes] 3.2.2 Rogue
Learn to read? Work on your comprehension a little there?
I didn't say it was bad, I'll agree with you that it's in a good spot, but it is not top. Obviously top for you with whatever gear you have, congrats.
2 of the 3 fights you listed are gimick fights with damage increases on them. Koralon is more accurate indicator.
With end game gear/weapons, Hack'n'Slash is currently on top, followed by Mace/Dagger, followed by Mutilate. They are all usually within like 50-100dps of each other. Depending on the fight 1 may even pull ahead of the other.
I am currently #60 on my server (out of over 3000, meaning I'm in the top 2%) for all Rogues according to Wow-heroes. My guild leader/raid leader is Mutilate, and he is currently sitting at #5 (he was #2, but a couple others pulled ahead last week). In ToC25, I out DPS him on Beasts, sometimes Twins, and Anub. We go back and forth on Faction Champs, and he he beats me on Jaraxxus because he stays on him the whole time for interrupts while I chase the sisters around when they spawn. I out DPS him in all of VoA, and on Ony. It's very close though. He's a good player, and I have to try really hard to beat him due to the current gap in gear. If I screw up or slack off at all, I drop a spot or 2. It's usually him, a hunter, and myself battling for top 3 in our raids.
If you're doing 7K+ DPS, you're probably in the top 2% on your server as well, which means there are very few Rogues out there that can compete with you. Chances are unless you have another in your guild that raids with you and is in that top 2% too, you won't come across one that can compete with you. Not counting my guild master/raid leader, I don't think I've ever grouped with another Rogue on our server that is even close to the same level as either of us. Usually if I PuG something and there happens to be another Rogue in the raid, they don't even do half the DPS that I do.
If I set of daggers dropped that were better than what I have now, I'd switch to Mutilate and see if I can put out more DPS than before. There's a couple daggers that are better than what I have now, and I probably have a better chance of picking them up, than picking up the best mace or axe out there. |
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Staulkor
@rhsnet.org
| reply to crytz
You don't want to use Evis over Envenom if you are Mutilate.
Ruptureless cycle (Evis only) is for Combat.
Look at Aldriana's latest spreadsheet (something beta 4) on EJ. Put your gear and your current spec in, up at the top it will show either "High Rupture", "Low Rupture", or "Evis Only" as your cycle. Well on the Combat spreadsheet anyway, I haven't looked at the Mutilate sheet (they are separate), 'cause I don't have any daggers worth using for Mutilate right now.
With 4/5 T8.5, High Rupture (Rupture is top priority and should never be down, you probably won't have time to get any Evis in) is the cycle for top DPS at that gear level.
When you have a few other 245 pieces, it finally becomes worth it to drop the 4pc T8.5 bonus in favor of a 245 piece that occupies one of those slots. Then you might switch to Low Rupture (alternate rupture and evis while keeping SnD up) cycle depending on how much ArP you have at this gear level.
With more 245 gear, and ArP close to the cap, Evis only cycle comes out on top. Keep SnD up at all times, and Evis every time you have 5cp. You drop Blood Splater, and 1 point from Ruthlesness for Improved Evis, and substitute Rupture glyph for Evis glyph. This is the current top, but only by a very small margin. It's odd because the T9 bonus needs Rupture to work, but you actually do more DPS with T9 gear on not using rupture (as combat)
You would never do Evis only for Mutilate. There's no reason to not have Master Poison, which now leaves your Deadly stacks up after an Envenom. You should already have Vile Poison, which increases Envenom damage by the same amount that Improved Evis increases Evis damage. CttC keeps your SnD up every time you Envenom, you need a bleed effect active for HfB, so there's no reason to not be using Rupture.
I think the same rule applies for breaking T8.5 bonus when it comes to Mutilate, you should have 4 or 5 pieces of ilvl 245 gear BEFORE you break the bonus, and you almost need that just to break even. From then on your DPS should start going up. I decided to break mine with a couple pieces of 245, and a couple of 232. I'm only about 200-300DPS ahead of what I was with 4pc T8.5 right now with this Evis only combat cycle. |
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Ibezombie
join:2009-06-12
| reply to Ibezombie
Well, I took your guys' advise and changed my spec up. I don't have any other daggers besides shadowbite and fleshshaper. Unless of course it's the Supersticker dagger, which IMO had horrid stats. Anywho I did that and went into an ony 25 in mutilate spec and I did 5k dps. Which was like mehhh... so we wiped a few times. And just to let you know I did not FOK the whelps I was keeping it strictly to single target. But my dps would not go above 5.2k. So we wipe again (pugs on my server suck ass, but this was basically my 25 man dps check) and I went back to combat. Pulled almost 9k not even trying. I guess the gear I've got just works better than my Assasssination gear so I was just going to change it back to my mut prep for pvp. LOL @ me copying the wrong spec with talented and paying 50g to add the broken assassination. Anyway I think I'll just stay combat. It's what I know, it's what I like, and regardless of me not being top dps, I'm still having fun and the only thing that will be above me is usually other rogues. I don't have the raid time to get superbadass weapons (that ended with a promotion that requires a LOT of at home work.) So at this point I'm just getting on to relieve stress and get in some quick raids (VOA, ONY, EOE) or 5 man heroics with the guild (which are a joke after you've been to Ulduar and gear up)
I appreciate all your guys' input and help and it will more the definitely help out someone else looking for a good mutilate spec. |
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dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
| reply to Staulkor
said by Staulkor :
Learn to read? Work on your comprehension a little there?
I didn't say it was bad, I'll agree with you that it's in a good spot, but it is not top. Obviously top for you with whatever gear you have, congrats.
2 of the 3 fights you listed are gimick fights with damage increases on them. Koralon is more accurate indicator.
With end game gear/weapons, Hack'n'Slash is currently on top, followed by Mace/Dagger, followed by Mutilate. They are all usually within like 50-100dps of each other. Depending on the fight 1 may even pull ahead of the other. My reading comprehension is fine, dick.
Yes, I know that they're gimmick fights. They were simply the most recent references I had. And fights in which no one- rogue or otherwise- came even remotely close, including similarly well geared players.
And when you're talking about 2-3 specs being better, is that before or after the most recent patches in which combat got a slight nerf via the ArPen change and Mutilate got a buff via envenom and master poisoner? Is that based on theoretical EJ calculations assuming 100% BiS gear that no one has yet and perfect rotations that frequently aren't possible to pull off? Yawn.
In the real world there is no "better" spec as it's too dependent on the actual boss involved and even then the differences are too insignificant to consider. |
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Ibezombie
join:2009-06-12
| said by dynodb  :said by Staulkor :
Learn to read? Work on your comprehension a little there?
I didn't say it was bad, I'll agree with you that it's in a good spot, but it is not top. Obviously top for you with whatever gear you have, congrats.
2 of the 3 fights you listed are gimick fights with damage increases on them. Koralon is more accurate indicator.
With end game gear/weapons, Hack'n'Slash is currently on top, followed by Mace/Dagger, followed by Mutilate. They are all usually within like 50-100dps of each other. Depending on the fight 1 may even pull ahead of the other. My reading comprehension is fine, dick. Yes, I know that they're gimmick fights. They were simply the most recent references I had. And fights in which no one- rogue or otherwise- came even remotely close, including similarly well geared players. And when you're talking about 2-3 specs being better, is that before or after the most recent patches in which combat got a slight nerf via the ArPen change and Mutilate got a buff via envenom and master poisoner? Is that based on theoretical EJ calculations assuming 100% BiS gear that no one has yet and perfect rotations that frequently aren't possible to pull off? Yawn. In the real world there is no "better" spec as it's too dependent on the actual boss involved and even then the differences are too insignificant to consider. If I'm using maces and get the armor pen buff from that I figured I'd see a decrease in my DPS, but since I'm not geared enough to have the ArP cap I didn't see a difference. Does that mean that when I get better gear and I can stack up on ArP I should go something other than maces? I used to be CQC with KT's reach and an OH 1.4 sword from Ulduar 10 man or a dagger. I didn't notice any decrease in crits inbetween using a sword or a dagger in OH so I usually stuck with the sword. I need a better fist with higher dps and better stats but I don't have the raid time. Should I be okay with maces? |
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Tehuno
join:2005-01-18
Bartlesville, OK | i beat our rogue on 2 consecutive non gimmick fights last night(beasts and jaraxxus), and i think its got him worried lol! hes been on top for so long, not anymore. hes still CQC afaik. |
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Stualkor
@rhsnet.org | Enhance shaman?
I was back and forth on the meters with ours until I got a couple upgrades, he hasn't had anything drop for him for a couple weeks, so he got left behind a little. |
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dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
| reply to Ibezombie
said by Ibezombie :If I'm using maces and get the armor pen buff from that I figured I'd see a decrease in my DPS, but since I'm not geared enough to have the ArP cap I didn't see a difference. Does that mean that when I get better gear and I can stack up on ArP I should go something other than maces? I used to be CQC with KT's reach and an OH 1.4 sword from Ulduar 10 man or a dagger. I didn't notice any decrease in crits inbetween using a sword or a dagger in OH so I usually stuck with the sword. I need a better fist with higher dps and better stats but I don't have the raid time. Should I be okay with maces? Maces are fine; just go with the typical slow MH / fast OH if you can. Is it the absolute top dps spec? Probably not, but generally the difference is small enough that it's not that important unless it's something unusual like combat daggers.
Keep in mind that ArPen scaling is such that the more you have, the greater benefit each point of ArPen provides. Depending on how much you have now, it might be beneficial to gem for it. Some of the top combat rogues I've seen were using ArPen gems almost exclusively. Grim Toll would be a good trinket choice if you have one. |
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Tehuno
join:2005-01-18
Bartlesville, OK
| reply to Stualkor
said by Stualkor :
Enhance shaman?
I was back and forth on the meters with ours until I got a couple upgrades, he hasn't had anything drop for him for a couple weeks, so he got left behind a little.
elemental =) i left our enhance in the dust as well. |
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Babyduck
@ameritech.net | reply to Ibezombie
What talent build are you using for Mace Spec Combat?
Is it similar to CQC with points moved into Mace Spec. The only one i could find had 13 points in Sub? Does that seem right? |
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Staulkor
@rhsnet.org
| reply to dynodb
We have an Enhance/Resto dual spec shaman, and a Resto Shaman IIRC. I used to love playing with Enhance shamans, back when WINfury was cool.
Yes try to get Grim Toll if you don't have it already. Should be easy since people faceroll through Naxx25 weekly on most servers for "badge runs". Best ArP trinket is Mjolner's Runestone, but that only drops off Thorim on Hard Mode. I wish I had that one. Running with Grim Toll and Death's Verdict right now.
I was thinking about gemming ArP to try to get to ~85% ArP (soft cap with Mace and Mjolner trinket, Grim Toll is not far behind that one though), but spreadsheet showed a bigger DPS increase gemming Agi. I still need to switch out a couple gems. Sitting at just under 4100AP unbuffed now. I was up over 6200 AP raid buffed last night, and hit around 8000 AP with double berserker proc + Death's Verdict proc.
I like the latest Combat spreadsheet... tells you what gems you should use in every slot one every piece of gear based on your gear and spec for optimum DPS. |
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Ibezombie
join:2009-06-12 | reply to Babyduck
No I only have 2 points in sub. Just armory me Ibezombie on tortheldrin. Don't pay attention to the Assassination build it's garbage. |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228
| reply to Ibezombie
maces spec isn't cutting it for me, one of the reasons maybe the maces themselves, the main hand one is from H ToC the other from ulduar 25... I only berserk enchant the higher Ilevel, and mongoose the other.. also the most dps one is the off-hand one.
Anyhow I went back to Fist/Dagger combat eviscerate and I'm stacking armpen, will try to get grim toll today hopefully..
I hate the grim toll drop rate, seriously, there are 4 bosses that drop it and I only seen it drop like 4 times since wotlk started! |
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Staulkor
@rhsnet.org
| Spec for your best MH weapon.
I'm an enchanter, Mongoose recipe never dropped for me, so I usually enchant both berserk now. I only enchant for other people with their mats, I never use mine to make scrolls or sell enchants or anything, so I usually have all the mats for it on hand. Also weapon upgrades always seem to be few and far between for me.
I wish I had your OH, it would go nice with my MH.
I guess I got lucky with Grim Toll, I think I got that like the 3rd time I ever did Naxx.
Stacking ArP may not be the best way to go. ArP and Agi are very close in EP levels. Agi gems came out with just slightly higher (like 0.01) EP values for me. Even if it was slightly lower than ArP, I'd probably still stack Agi anyway, simply because I would not have to re-gem if I picked up daggers that would put a Mutilate build at higher DPS than my current Combat build with my current weapons. |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228
| reply to Ibezombie
I still have several AP gems I could swith with Agi..
The rogue I was running ToC 25 with had almost all gems with AP, he also had 2 with Agi.
He was combat fist/dagger, although his fist was calamity's, slightly below's mine (from Ulduar 25), but his OH dagger was 245 from ToC 25. He was #1 on dps, even on top of a very well geared and skilled blood DK.
At least on combat I have my two weapons with berserking.. |
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Staulkor
@rhsnet.org | Not sure why he'd use AP, unless all his other stats were really over loaded. The point at which you'd use ArP over Agi is if you have more crit than you really need. I suppose you'd use AP if your Agi, ArP, Hit, and Exp, are all at or near cap. |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228
1 edit | reply to Ibezombie
I meat ArP.. LOL
My crit right now it's a 43.1%, do I need more Agi? |
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Tirael
join:2009-03-18
Savannah, GA
| reply to Ibezombie
A rogue friend of mine stacked agi the way plate dps stacks str. Every socket that he didnt want/need a bonus from had Agi in it. I think in a 25 man with full raid buffs procs and DMG he had something like 2.6k agi. It was pretty ridiculous and he could pulldown some serious dps (6k on freya pre-3.2)
--
“Reality doesn't bite, rather our perception of reality bites.” - Anthony J. D'Angelo |
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Staulkor
@rhsnet.org
| 43% crit unbuffed? I don't think it would hurt you to stack ArP with that much crit... where you're at, it's probably 6 of 1, half dozen of the other, you could go either way and get about the same results.
Yes Tirael, we usually stack +20 Agi gems on 95% of our slots. We need 1 blue, 1 yellow, and 1 red to activate our meta. There are some pieces where it's worth it to get the socket bonus, but most it's not. A lot of the upper level gear for a Rogue seems to have blue sockets on it these days. 1 Blue socket, bonus is +4 Agi. Well if you put a Purple gem that is +10 Agi / +15 Sta, you end up with +14 Agi total. In that case you get more of a DPS increase if you put a +20 Agi gem in.
For our yellow sockets we usually use an Orange, Agi + either Exp or Hit, whichever we need more. Purple for the blue socket, but only IF the socket bonus is worth it on the gear with those color sockets. If none of our gear is worth the socket bonus, a Nightmare Tear (prismatic) is used somewhere to get the meta activated. |
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djlar
join:2009-04-23
799228
| reply to Ibezombie
I could use prismatic on either the helm or where a socket bonus is worth it, if not throw it on a belt bluckle..
I saw that particular rogue had a belt, I think it was 232, that had 2 sockets, do you know where it drops? That's 60 arpen or agi right there instead of the belt buckle alone. |
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