bbinabox
join:2009-02-27
Louisville, KY
3 edits | One-Way vs Two-way Satellite Systems
GG said:
As a former one-way customer, I don't buy the "less than I got now" bit. Specifically - you've only got a max 33.6k send with one-way. Then there's the aggravation of constantly waiting for the dialup modem to connect (or to reconnect after it drops out). But each to his own.
Smoke mirrors, sir. Your old DirecPC was a work of its own (proprietary military platform morphed into a consumer service???). Please compare apples to apples. Head to head testing shows that 2-way uploads may 'burst' up to advertised speeds but try uploading something significant and it trails down to dial-up speeds. I've only found 1 2-way provider actually admit that. All you have to do is search for "2 way satellite upload problems" to see the truth, not from someone who is paid to install the systems -BUT- from actual 2-way customers. Yeah smart move 2-way guy, pay $80/month get dial-up upload speeds, dropouts and download speeds which average around where this technology's $49/month retail package consistently serves. How is paying $30 more a month smart again there GG?
Somebody's been feeding you bad info though - there's no "$250 equipment" to go Wildblue. If you want to fold the equipment into your monthly bill, you lease it for six bucks a month for 2 years. Alternatively you can opt to pay the 2 years lease in advance - for $100.,
You forgot to mention 2 year commitment, $700+ early cancellation fee and the lease fee which continues even after 2 years.
Don't know what a dedicated phoneline costs in your area. But around here one-way plus phone line would be about sixty bucks a month. That kind of money buys 1000k/128k connection from HughesNet.
1000k/128k MORE LIKE: 500k/dial speed averages from Hughes/DirectWay/PC.
PLUS factoring in phone lines costs isn't being very honest IMO there GG. If a person can't get broadband its because they live in "LAST MILE" exchanges where cell phones won't work very well! Now take out that cost and try selling a 2-way system, hard isn't it?
How is this saving people money again?
[mod note: OT sub-thread; moved to its own topic. Title edited to better reflect content] |
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dbirdman
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-07
Eureka, CA
| Re: starconnect down 9/1 ?
said by bbinabox  :factoring in phone lines costs isn't being very honest IMO there GG. If a person can't get broadband its because they live in "LAST MILE" exchanges where cell phones won't work very well! Now take out that cost and try selling a 2-way system, hard isn't it? If you take out that cost you've managed to open up another can of worms, which is the tying up of your phone line for all of the time you are online.
I note that at least one dial-return customer in this thread has said he has two lines, and I'll bet that is not uncommon.
So, you have to factor in something: cost of a phone line, or loss of the only phone line while online.
Tell me if I'm wrong and you can actually have your cake and eat it to?
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Motosat self-pointing dishes: 1.2-meter XF-3 on 105W or 121W, .74 meter G74 on 83W, SL-5 HD DirecTV|idirect 3100|Hughes HN7000S|Sprint Air Card|1990 Blue Bird Wanderlodge Bus "Blue Thunder"|Author of PC-OPI and DSSatTool |
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bbinabox
join:2009-02-27
Louisville, KY
| That's what caller ID is for dbirdman. Its been around forever! Want to talk to the person who's calling? Pick up the phone. Don't? Keep surfing. Pretty simple. I guess that's another sales ploy to get people to go with a 2-Way system huh?
I mean 2-Way sales always factors in the cost of a phone line, which isn't being upfront with people. What? A 2-Way system magically eliminates the need for phone communications as well as making cell phone work better? Get real.
Compare apples to apples. |
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dbirdman
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-07
Eureka, CA
| said by bbinabox :That's what caller ID is for dbirdman. Its been around forever! I would have thought you, being in the business, must live in a rural area and have experience with the state of POTS in rural areas.
How about a show of hands here? How many with dial-return satellite have caller ID on the phone they use for internet? How many are able to see that ID while connected to the internet, without interruption of their connection?
If you do have it, how many are through a third-party that shows on their computer screen, and what are you paying extra for it?
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Motosat self-pointing dishes: 1.2-meter XF-3 on 105W or 121W, .74 meter G74 on 83W, SL-5 HD DirecTV|idirect 3100|Hughes HN7000S|Sprint Air Card|1990 Blue Bird Wanderlodge Bus "Blue Thunder"|Author of PC-OPI and DSSatTool |
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grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief
join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
4 edits | He's just blowing more smoke Don. To do what he claims adds an additional $21/mo + taxes and fees to a monthly landline phonebill around here. It requires
(1) caller ID,
(2) call waiting, and
(3) call waiting caller ID.
Seven bucks plus per month per feature = >$21/mo for the capabity of deciding whether or not you want to talk to who's trying to interrupt you surfing the net with your phone modem !! Having said that, it is (marginally) cheaper than a dedicated 2nd phoneline. But you still risk dropping the modem connection while switched to the call waiting.
Oh, and take this for what it's worth - I originally thought someone who feigned such sympathy for we poor country folk might have been a country boy himself. Turns out BBIAB works out of metro Louisville. Pushin' one way satellite from metro Louisville. Go figure.
//greg//
P.S. For what it's worth #2: Thomas reneged on his offer to let me beta test the GPRS/EDGE version of the new modem he's touting.
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HN7000S/98cm Prodelin/2w Osiris/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 3 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2009 |
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or270
Premium
join:2007-03-13
Lookout, CA
 ·HughesNet Satellit..
2 edits | I had caller ID and it never worked when I was on the internet, so I paid about $30.00 per month for the second phone line and another $15.00 for a local dial-up telephone number plus $39.00 for the one-way total was $84.00 per month
Also I have lost phone service for more than 24 hours.
I have Pro-Plus with Hughesnet and the 2nd day express service plan for repairs and I pay $85.94.
That being said if/when something better/cheaper comes along I will switch unless there is a 5GB or so CAP.
Last month I download 6.8GB normal time and 33GB in the FAP free time.
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HN9000/.74 1 watt/ProPlus
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grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief
join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
4 edits | reply to bbinabox
said by bbinabox : I've only found 1 2-way provider actually admit that. For good reason. Across the board, your allegation is patently false. Can you actually get a 2nd qualified person at that 2-way provider validate this "trail down" allegation?.
Above is a snapshot of a "large file" in the process of being uploaded via my 256k HughesNet connection. The screen capture was made at 1850 CDT, right smack dab in the middle of peak usage time. For the record, the protocol is SMTP - not one of the more efficient ones. So rest assured, I CAN show faster snapshots.
The red line records the actual send data rate (each point represents a "burst), the white line is the average data rate inside the window. The peak send speed visible in that window is recorded in the bottom left box, the window average is in the box above it, and the 3rd box shows the speed at the exact second the screen capture was made. I can do this day in and day out, the pattern won't change.
The tell here, is how straight the white line is. So much for your "trail down" talking point.
//greg//
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HN7000S/98cm Prodelin/2w Osiris/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 3 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2009 |
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grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief
join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
4 edits | reply to bbinabox
Re: One-Way vs Two-way Satellite Systems
said by bbinabox :You forgot to mention 2 year commitment, $700+ early cancellation fee and the lease fee which continues even after 2 years. Anybody wanting it for less than 2 years has no business spending the money - unless they're actually willing to pay the early termination fee. And that fee is not $700. It's $15 x the remaining number of months in the current 24 month service agreement. So actually FULFILLING a 2 year commitment costs absolutely nothing.
And yes, the lease fee extends beyond the initial 24 months contract. But what it does is REPLACE the original $250 up front hardware fee. So instead of owning the equipment outright - then paying out of pocket for repairs/replacements - the lease covers that. Paying that 24 month lease up front - instead of folding it into your monthly bill - reduces the lease cost to $4/mo. At that price, you can lease for ~62 months BEFORE exceeding what it originally would have cost you to BUY the equipment up front. What it amounts to, is a $4/mo permanent warranty.
Let's face it. Most folks use satellite internet - one way OR two way - only as long as it takes for real broadband to be available in their area. At that time it's an individual choice: do I cancel and pay the early termination fee? Or do I satisfy my contractual obligation, then drop satellite for terrestrial?
And here's what I mean about "checking facts". I'm not a Wildblue user or installer or dealer. Never touched one actually. Matter of fact, I'd not likely ever even buy Wildblue myself. Yet everything I've posted here - past and present - has come straight off public websites, or is a matter of personal/professional knowledge. Every bit of it is verifiable. Stick to stuff you can back up with facts - instead of emotion - and you won't get mired down in these unwinnable debates.
You're absolutely and positively entitled to sell one-way satellite internet systems to those that you can convince to buy them. Just tell the truth. Like I said; sell the hell outa your Plymouths - it's your right. But don't badmouth Cadillacs to do it.
//greg//
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HN7000S/98cm Prodelin/2w Osiris/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 3 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2009 |
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bbinabox
join:2009-02-27
Louisville, KY
| reply to bbinabox
GG,
Comparing consumer 2-Way services to a Cadillac is preposterous. Caddies are classics with a long reputation for being GREAT vehicles and have millions upon millions of dedicated owners. I can't say that for consumer 2-way solutions at all. Just because something is expensive does not make it quality. That's completely laughable.
GG said: You and I differ, in that I usually check my facts before posting.
Speaking of checking facts, why haven't you mentioned that WildBlue/Hughes charge for un-returned hardware? Do prospects know that before they sign? If so, why are there so many people out there who say they weren't?
While my guesstimate might have been off, it wasn't by much: 2-way systems are expensive period, not very reliable period, and they're not the BEST -OR- MOST AFFORDABLE solution for "Last Mile" homes/businesses looking for a solution.
Cadillac's...HAHAHAHA!!!
Have a great day everybody!! |
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dbirdman
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-07
Eureka, CA
| bbb: What is your explanation for the 2-way dish you will find mounted on the roof of 80% of the gas stations and convenience stores in this country, both rural and urban?
I know the reason; I want to hear what your take is and how you make it fit with your BEST "for .../businesses"
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Motosat self-pointing dishes: 1.2-meter XF-3 on 105W or 121W, .74 meter G74 on 83W, SL-5 HD DirecTV|idirect 3100|Hughes HN7000S|Sprint Air Card|1990 Blue Bird Wanderlodge Bus "Blue Thunder"|Author of PC-OPI and DSSatTool |
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bbinabox
join:2009-02-27
Louisville, KY
| reply to bbinabox
Those are used for credit card authorizations birdman. I heard that Hughes owns over 75% of that business. I bet they charged a whole lot more for the installation (truer costs) + they are giving pretty good discounts on volume monthly orders because the upload isn't much on a credit card authorization.
You bring up a good point though, as a business solution, 2-Way technology has its benefits if you are willing to pay for it.
Here's the costs from an iDirect VAR prodider.
iDirect Shared Bandwidth Service Plans for stationary systems on AMC-4 @ 101W
• 1024/128 kbps - $149.00 per mo. 60:1 contention
• 2056/768 kbps - $249.00 per mo. 60:1 contention
• 2056/768 kbps - $599.00 per mo. 25:1 contention
• 2056/768 kbps - $995.00 per mo. 15:1 contention
• 2056/768 kbps - $50.00 per DAY - On Demand 10:1 contention (CIR - $5.00 per Kb)
• 2056/2056 kbps - $250.00 per DAY - On Demand 10:1 contention (CIR - $5.00 per Kb)
No bandwidth limitation (FAP) on this service; however, we do not permit p2p, web hosting, mail servers and other very high bandwidth usage. We can obtain lower ratios at higher prices based on customer needs.
source: »www.montanasatellite.com/idirect···vice.htm
Notice that these are 'shared' pricing. Once you go to a dedicated account, your prices go up. That's why I find it mis-directed that residential 2-Way providers advertise the way that they do knowing full well that its impossible to under-promise and over-deliver.
Our parent company First Response Group, Inc. actually sells 2-Way services. |
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grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief
join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
4 edits | reply to bbinabox
said by bbinabox :Speaking of checking facts, why haven't you mentioned that WildBlue/Hughes charge for un-returned hardware? Um, cuz they can. Wildlblue only leases the equipment to the subscribers. Since it doesn't belong to the subscriber, it's on the subscriber to return it when so requested. And the only people that have to return the Hughes equipment, are the ones that cancel their contract before they've finished paying for the hardware. But once they've paid for it - either up front or by the monthly payment plan - it's theirs. Hughes has no further claim on it.
Your response to Don is a clear indicator that you also know very little about the systems he mentioned. They're leased on a whole network basis, usually in STAR or RING configuration.
Those iDirect quotes you listed are for individual (consumer type) connections, and have nothing to do with business networking at all. The higher prices (than Hughes and WB) is directly related to (a) the much better CIR, and (b) no FAP. I don't have exact numbers, those guys keep that stuff pretty close to the belt. But I think it's safe to say that Hughes and WB contention ratios are likely 10 times that of iDirect. This is the type of service that an office manager might buy for his small business, where he has to further sub-divide the connection into a conventional LAN.
To further demonstrate your lack of understanding, "Shared" refers to the CIR; that is, the $149/month connection has to compete for satellite time with potentially 60 other customers. On Hughes and WB, that number may exceed x10.
//greg//
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HN7000S/98cm Prodelin/2w Osiris/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82 |
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bbinabox
join:2009-02-27
Louisville, KY
| reply to bbinabox
Sorry there GG, but you still failed to mentioned it. That's the kind of pompousness sales attitude which definitely does not build a loyal customer-base.
So they don't use VSAT's for credit card authorizations? Really? Dude...
So the iDirect quotes are for individual (consumer type) connections?
You're serious here, right? That is even more funny than your Cadillac comparison!!! Average people have $149.00 starters for Internet connections, right?
Take their Satellite & Wireless Internet Interview - »www.montanasatellite.com/interview/index.htm
The only time they recommend iDirect is for business customers. So not only are you saying that I am wrong here -BUT- so is the iDirect reseller.
Taken directly from the same web site: from their Satellite & Wireless Internet Interview - »www.montanasatellite.com/interview/index.htm
When looking at a more serious business class Internet Access system for multiple users, VOIP, VPN, Remote Desktop and other bandwidth intense applications, the ViaSat systems or iDirect systems should handle your needs!
ViaSat is our recommended solution for this type of application, in fact... we even recommend ViaSat for our smaller residential applications where the lower upfront costs are not as important as speeds, reliability, capability and support!
ViaSat's new LinkStar Systems and Services are known for their commercial and enterprise level of equipment and services... having recently entered the small business markets, their systems and services can provide high speed, high quality, reliable and flexible Internet access via Satellite that surpasses the capabilities of both WildBlue and HughesNet!
ViaSat systems start at around $1999.00 installed in our local service areas, and although monthly service starts at around $69.99 per month, for this type of application we would recommend the $99.99 or $139.99 monthly service plan. If you plan on using VOIP and other bandwidth intensive applications, the $169.99 plan is the minimum recommended and almost always required for maintaining high quality, reliable VOIP services.
iDirect offers even greater capabilities and flexibility for larger business, corporate and enterprise applications where "shared bandwidth" services will not do! iDirect offers "direct" private access to the Internet and/or to other "intranet" locations where security and privacy, speeds and reliability are priority! Several equipment packages and service plans are available to fit your needs and budget.
Man you are a piece of work there GG. |
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grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief
join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
2 edits | said by bbinabox :So the iDirect quotes are for individual (consumer type) connections? Yes. Don was talking about the RING/STAR corporate WAN networks. You're goin' on about individual connections that are used for SOHO LAN applications. Apples and oranges. Obviously you don't have any idea of what the "iDirect reseller" - is selling.
Maybe start by asking your parent company for some 2-way education. Because you're obviously not grasping what Don and I are trying to tellya.
//greg//
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HN7000S/98cm Prodelin/2w Osiris/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 3 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2009 |
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dbirdman
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-07
Eureka, CA
| reply to bbinabox
said by bbinabox :Those are used for credit card authorizations birdman. I heard that Hughes owns over 75% of that business. I think you missed the point. The question is, if you have the BEST solution for small businesses, why don't they use your solution (and I guarantee that they don't). This is all caught up in "why" they use 2-way.
Do you know "why?" I do, and it is central to the 1-way/2-way argument.
Hint: It has zero to do with cost, although those are actually not very costly at all.
Please, tell us why you think they are using 2-way rather than the "BEST" 1-way?
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Motosat self-pointing dishes: 1.2-meter XF-3 on 105W or 121W, .74 meter G74 on 83W, SL-5 HD DirecTV|idirect 3100|Hughes HN7000S|Sprint Air Card|1990 Blue Bird Wanderlodge Bus "Blue Thunder"|Author of PC-OPI and DSSatTool |
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bbinabox
join:2009-02-27
Louisville, KY
| reply to bbinabox
birdman,
I would say its because they were over promised for what's delivered. Enough of being so vague, say it!!!
GG,
Your arguments always wind up with you acting all high on the horse about your overpriced and unreliable technologies and then giving me grief because I don't know enough about it, or when I call something by the wrong name. Who cares except for you.
Though you all know everything about your system it really doesn't have much to do with how well it works -OR- how it is recieved by your cusomers. Either it works well or it doesn't.
Why is that again? Oh yeah, its because I've asked you 1,000's of times and you've never answered it -OR- blamed it on the installers. Vagueness once again... |
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dbirdman
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-07
Eureka, CA
| You really don't know why they use them, do you?
There are two reasons.
The first one would apply to a DSL account, a T-1, a 2-way satellite, and possibly a 1-way satellite: Speed. Not speed of the data transfer, but speed of the connection. When a business uses a data terminal on a pots line there are many, many seconds of negotiation before the connection is made and the approval obtained. An always-on connection transfers data right away. This greatly matters when you have a bunch of gas pumps.
The second reason removes DSL, T-1, and 1-way, leaving only 2-way: Reliability.
Store and station owners know all to well how often their phones are not performing regularly, particularly when there is bad weather. As long as you have power (and it also takes power to pump gas, so a large number have generator backup in rural areas) you have a connection with 2-way satellite.
Say it with me: Reliability
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Motosat self-pointing dishes: 1.2-meter XF-3 on 105W or 121W, .74 meter G74 on 83W, SL-5 HD DirecTV|idirect 3100|Hughes HN7000S|Sprint Air Card|1990 Blue Bird Wanderlodge Bus "Blue Thunder"|Author of PC-OPI and DSSatTool |
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dbirdman
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-07
Eureka, CA
| reply to bbinabox
said by bbinabox :Either it works well or it doesn't. Yep. We spend a lot of time trying to figure out why some 2-way users have systems that are not working well. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we don't. In a lot of cases I really wish I could be there, hands-on, because it is such a head-scratcher.
What is your response (I don't see you answering many such threads) when it is a 1-way user whose system is not working well?
We acknowledge that both exist, and that they appear to be roughly in proportion to the number of users of the system as a whole (except the recent fiasco where ALL of the customers of a 1-way system lost their satellite connectivity). You appear to want to represent that such problems exist only in the 2-way community. This forum has plenty of posts to prove you wrong, including today.
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Motosat self-pointing dishes: 1.2-meter XF-3 on 105W or 121W, .74 meter G74 on 83W, SL-5 HD DirecTV|idirect 3100|Hughes HN7000S|Sprint Air Card|1990 Blue Bird Wanderlodge Bus "Blue Thunder"|Author of PC-OPI and DSSatTool |
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bbinabox
join:2009-02-27
Louisville, KY
| Typically its due to configuration errors: wrong user name, pass word. I'm pretty proud that this platform has a success rate which is as close to 100% as I've seen. Our new partner just installed 100 systems with 100% installation completion rating. Their average support call was 5-7 minutes. Pretty good!
If there is someone with a problem here I usually IM them. Today's poster was regarding speeds. I'm not too sure that was a tech support issue though we did have a server issue around 7PM EST last night. |
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grohgreg
Dunno. Ask The Chief
join:2001-07-05
Dawson Springs, KY
1 edit | reply to bbinabox
said by bbinabox : Who cares except for you. Well, I'm pretty sure your potential customers do. What kind of fool buys from a guy who is demonstrably ignorant of both the technology and of the competition? I just wish there was a way to actually quantify how many sales you've lost since publicly pronouncing your "Ambassadorship". I think it's fair to say that - in these forums - you are your own worst enemy.
//greg//
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HN7000S/98cm Prodelin/2w Osiris/ProPlus - G16/1250H/Germantown - NAT 66.82.187.152/Gateway 66.82.25.10/DNS 66.82.4.12 and 66.82.4.8 - Firefox 3 - AV/Firewalled by NIS2009 |
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