JPL
Premium
join:2007-04-04
West Chester, PA
 ·Verizon FIOS
| reply to film11
Re: Epix
said by film11 :said by JPL  :While I agree that Epix should be running all their stuff in OAR, I have to believe over time they will. Heck even channels like HD Net Movies - lauded for their dedication to preserving the vision of the artists who made the movie - crop movies from time to time. I love HD Net and HD Net Movies, so this is far from a criticism. I love horror movies, and around Halloween I go trolling the listings for stuff that I want to record. HD Net Movies had one (very crappy movie) called House of the Devil. Yeah, I watched it all the way through. And last night, as I watched the end, it hit me - the movie is 16:9. I hit the info button to make sure that it was indeed recorded off of HD Net Movies - it was. HOUSE OF THE DEVIL was not cropped. It was filmed at 1.85:1, not 2.35:1... so HDNet showed it correctly. I have never found a movie cropped on HDNet Movies. Maybe I'm doing the math wrong, but 16:9 works out to 1.78:1... not 1.85:1. Meaning that there should have been black bars on the top and bottom - minimal though they would have been. There were none. |
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film11
@verizon.net
| said by JPL :said by film11 :
Maybe I'm doing the math wrong, but 16:9 works out to 1.78:1... not 1.85:1. Meaning that there should have been black bars on the top and bottom - minimal though they would have been. There were none. I have 2 settings on my monitor: 16:9 and Screen Fit. Using screen fit, there were black bars but they were so small that I had to be inches away from the screen to see them. It's one thing to lose a tiny sliver of picture...but it's another thing to lose 25% - 40% of the picture, which is what EPIX does. |
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JPL
Premium
join:2007-04-04
West Chester, PA
·Verizon FIOS
1 edit | said by film11 :said by JPL :said by film11 :
Maybe I'm doing the math wrong, but 16:9 works out to 1.78:1... not 1.85:1. Meaning that there should have been black bars on the top and bottom - minimal though they would have been. There were none. I have 2 settings on my monitor: 16:9 and Screen Fit. Using screen fit, there were black bars but they were so small that I had to be inches away from the screen to see them. It's one thing to lose a tiny sliver of picture...but it's another thing to lose 25% - 40% of the picture, which is what EPIX does. The House of the Devil filled my screen. If there were black bars then I would have seen them. Yes, they would have been small, but I've noticed them with other movies done in 1.85:1. I would have noticed them on this movie too. There were none. My eyesight's not great, and I can see them at 10 - 11' from my TV... I don't need to be inches from the TV to see them. |
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shark2k
join:2008-06-01
West Orange, NJ
| said by JPL :The House of the Devil filled my screen. If there were black bars then I would have seen them. Yes, they would have been small, but I've noticed them with other movies done in 1.85:1. I would have noticed them on this movie too. There were none. My eyesight's not great, and I can see them at 10 - 11' from my TV... I don't need to be inches from the TV to see them. 1.85:1 Movies tend to just fill the screen. The ratio is so close to 1.78:1 that most of the time studios don't bother with that extra little area. 1.66:1 movies also tend to fill the screen (Disney movies mainly are where you see this ratio). But interestingly enough, The Nightmare Before Christmas on Blu-ray actually has to small black bars to the left and right of the image which means it is displayed properly. Aladdin on DVD though does fill the screen up entirely if I'm not mistaken and that has a 1.66:1 ratio.
It's really anything 2.0:1 and greater that matters if it gets chopped up where you lose a lot of image.
-Shark2k |
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film11
@verizon.net
| said by shark2k
It's really anything 2.0:1 and greater that matters if it gets chopped up where you lose a lot of image.
-Shark2k
[/BQUOTE :Exactly my point. I'm not worried about missing a tiny sliver. But what EPIX does to widescreen films is serious butchering. |
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justin9876
join:2006-04-21
Keller, TX
| reply to aaronwt
said by aaronwt :There is macroblocking on every broadcast. they were there on IronMan even if you didn't notice them. You know, it really doesn't matter if you think they are there or not, or even if they are really there, if I don't see them, for me they are not there. I really think you are beating the proverbial dead horse to death. If you don't like it, don't watch it, but please quit telling me what I am or should be seeing, it is pointless.
Thank you.
--
Justin
Verizon FiOS TV and Internet
Motorola QIP6416 HD DVR
Sony KDL-V40XBR1 |
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aaronwt
Premium
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA
·Verizon FIOS
2 edits | said by justin9876 :said by aaronwt :There is macroblocking on every broadcast. they were there on IronMan even if you didn't notice them. You know, it really doesn't matter if you think they are there or not, or even if they are really there, if I don't see them, for me they are not there. I really think you are beating the proverbial dead horse to death. If you don't like it, don't watch it, but please quit telling me what I am or should be seeing, it is pointless. Thank you. I don't think it is there I KNOW it is there.
It's good if you don't see the macroblocking since ignorance is bliss when it comes to picture quality. Once you notice the imperfections it's difficult to ignore them.
I see the problems from every TV I've seen whether analog or digital, and from Comcast, FIOS, DirecTV, DISH and OTA.
I have equipment to minimize it at home, which makes it more tolerable, but without it, sometimes it's too annoying to watch. |
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jasg
join:2008-12-13
Seattle, WA
 ·Verizon Online DSL
1 edit | said by aaronwt :I don't think it is there I KNOW it is there. It's good if you don't see the macroblocking since ignorance is bliss when it comes to picture quality. Once you notice the imperfections it's difficult to ignore them. Perhaps you can train your brain to not notice the defects, I know that I have done that with DLP 'rainbows'.
Long ago, when I got started with high fidelity audio, a wise friend explained to me that 'audiophiles listen to the distortion in their gear but music lovers hear the music'.
I have tried to keep that in mind with my current video hobby. |
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aaronwt
Premium
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA
·Verizon FIOS
| said by jasg :said by aaronwt :I don't think it is there I KNOW it is there. It's good if you don't see the macroblocking since ignorance is bliss when it comes to picture quality. Once you notice the imperfections it's difficult to ignore them. Perhaps you can train your brain to not notice the defects, I know that I have done that with DLP 'rainbows'. Long ago, when I got started with high fidelity audio, a wise friend explained to me that 'audiophiles listen to the distortion in their gear but music lovers hear the music'. I have tried to keep that in mind with my current video hobby. Yes that is a good philosophy. |
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jimboe
join:2000-08-14
New York
 ·Optimum Online
| reply to jasg
said by jasg :... Long ago, when I got started with high fidelity audio, a wise friend explained to me that 'audiophiles listen to the distortion in their gear but music lovers hear the music'. Excellent, truly excellent.
Thank you (and your friend). |
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HDTVFanAtic
join:2009-05-06
4 edits | I'll let other posters who deny gravity exists, the atomsphere exits and macroblocking on Epix exists continue in their denial as science has proven them wrong on all counts.
For those who want the reason why, further examination has shown it is because EPIX is using a very poorly implemented GOP structure.
First, they are putting 2 B frames back to back in between every I Frame or P Frame. This is very poor practice, especially when you only use 1 I Frame per GOP for reasons that are far more technical than those that think the earth is still flat can put their hands around - and outside the topic of this thread. Let's just say that you waste massive amount of bandwidth on B Frames as no other frame can be based on a B Frame, providing you know how Video works with I, B and P frames.
Second, they are leading off the GOP with 2 B Frames which is suicide for PQ, even with the smallest amount of change from the previous GOP.
Third, instead of using scene change detection and variable length GOPs, they are using constant GOP lengths all starting with 2 B Frames instead of an I Frame, which they should do if they wish to destroy the rest of the GOP with back to back B Frames.
Fourth, they are using an Open GOP, which is good in and of itself UNLESS YOU ARE LEADING THE GOP WITH B FRAMES.
Fifth, by not using the telecine flag they are wasting over 20% of their bitrate on repeated frames that the STB could do locally just as well. If they did this, they could move to an I-B-P-B-P-B-P etc pattern for each GOP instead of the current B-B-I-B-B-P-B-B-P pattern that is causing the macroblocking.
Finally, on another Quality Issue, the DialNorm is set to -24db, which means you get 3db more compression than most of the other Premium Channels and in some cases 7db more compression.
Frame 1 of GOP - B Frame showing severe Macroblocking
Frame 2 of GOP - B Frame showing Macroblocking
Frame 3 of GOP - I Frame finally free of Macroblocking
Dial Norm below default -27db setting and at a very low -24db on EPIX.
 |
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HDTVFanAtic
join:2009-05-06
1 edit | reply to jimboe
said by jimboe :said by jasg :... Long ago, when I got started with high fidelity audio, a wise friend explained to me that 'audiophiles listen to the distortion in their gear but music lovers hear the music'. Excellent, truly excellent. Comical.
Audiophiles are the true music lovers who want the music to be sound like it does when it is performed liver - free of distortion.
They want the attack when a drumstick hits the cymbal. A ringing that has a slow decay - just like in real life - Not the sound of a piece of wood against something that does not even sound musical.
Its the non-audiophiles who listen to distortion and think its really music when in fact it is really distortion.
In Video, we want to see what the Director intended for us to see.
Its even more comical you are asking for OAR when you want it distorted OAR. |
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JPL
Premium
join:2007-04-04
West Chester, PA
·Verizon FIOS
| That's right - insulting people is EXACTLY the way to convince them of your argument. Let me state why this isn't a big deal for me. First let's keep this in perspective. Is Epix the premium way to watch a movie? No, of course not. Is there macroblocking? Yes there is? Is it noticeable? Not that I've seen - I've seen worse macroblocking on all the other premiums. I really don't care how many bits per frame they use - I really don't. If I can't SEE the macroblocking, why on earth do I care that it's there?
Second, if Epix isn't a premium way to see movies, then why get it? That's an individual choice - but if you're expecting the premium way to see movies for $10/month, you're living on another planet. You're talking, literally about having access to hundreds of movies for $10/month. That works out to pennies per movie... and you're expecting to have the most pristine movie-going experience for that? Last time I checked, people who want premium aren't afraid to PAY premium. I don't go into a gas station expecting to pay the price of regular if I get the premium gas.
It all comes down to what you get and what you pay for. If I'm spending $30 for Blu-Ray movie and it's not in OAR, then I'm very upset. If I'm paying a couple cents to see a movie on a TV channel and it's not in OAR, I shrug.
Please stop with the insults. I'm not some bone-headed bafoon who doesn't understand this stuff. Most people on here understand what you're saying just fine. What I don't get is why you're so stinking upset about it. Again, what exactly are your expectations for a channel where you pay pennies per movie? |
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JPL
Premium
join:2007-04-04
West Chester, PA
·Verizon FIOS
| reply to HDTVFanAtic
I wanted to throw one more point out there with regard to music. While I agree that the best way to hear a concert is to actually go to the concert, it's totally asinine to deny yourself the enjoyment of listening to music because the recording isn't providing you the optimal experience. I have a CD of a recording: Levant Plays Gershwin. It easily has the best version of Rhapsody in Blue I've ever heard. But guess what's also on the CD? Hissing... popping... crackling. The source material from which the CD was mastered had deteriorated. I guess I should never listen to that CD again, though, because of that. I should deny myself the enjoyment of that music because it isn't as pristine as hearing the performance at Carnegie Hall... |
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jimboe
join:2000-08-14
New York
·Optimum Online
| reply to HDTVFanAtic
said by HDTVFanAtic :said by jimboe :said by jasg :... Long ago, when I got started with high fidelity audio, a wise friend explained to me that 'audiophiles listen to the distortion in their gear but music lovers hear the music'. Excellent, truly excellent. Comical. Audiophiles are the true music lovers who want the music to be sound like it does when it is performed liver - free of distortion. They want the attack when a drumstick hits the cymbal. A ringing that has a slow decay - just like in real life - Not the sound of a piece of wood against something that does not even sound musical. Its the non-audiophiles who listen to distortion and think its really music when in fact it is really distortion. In Video, we want to see what the Director intended for us to see. Its even more comical you are asking for OAR when you want it distorted OAR. You misunderstand.
I was NOT downplaying the issue(s) Re: 'Poor' picture quality on Epix: I was merely commenting on a clever 'philisophical' expression which can at times, be apropos. Not necessarily here.
In fact, I happen to agree with your criticims w.r.t. to Epix and happen to appreciate your detailed analysis and the discussion which is generated. |
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HDTVFanAtic
join:2009-05-06
3 edits | reply to JPL
Using your logic, you should have never paid the money to invest in an HDTV - its only a few cents per movie, so what do you for that price? You could have accepted SD and been done with it.
Just because you do not see something because of physcial limitation, quoting you:
said by JPL :My eyesight's not great That doesn't mean that we should all come down to the least common denominator - that being your eyesight. |
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CrobertGauth
join:2007-12-15
Glen Burnie, MD
| said by HDTVFanAtic :Using your logic, you should have never paid the money to invest in an HDTV - its only a few cents per movie, so what do you for that price? You could have accepted SD and been done with it. Just because you do not see something because of physcial limitation, quoting you: said by JPL :My eyesight's not great That doesn't mean that we should all come down to the least common denominator - that being your eyesight. Seems as though this thread has become a discussion about audio and video qualities and less about Epix (just a reason to have the discussion rather than the topic itself. Any other new channel would have served the same purpose) |
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JoeRu
@verizon.net | Did anyone sign up for this? |
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darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR | said by JoeRu :
Did anyone sign up for this?
Apparently. »Poll: Will you pay $9.99/mo to sign up for EPIX? |
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nascar
join:2000-02-28
Verona, NJ
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
| reply to nascar
I sincerely have to wonder what the take rate is on Epix. Personally, Verizon has done the worst possible job imaginable in marketing this channel.
I could have sworn in the beginning when it was announced that it was going to be included in the Movie package. Wishful thinking on my part I guess.
What matters to me the most is that Paramount, Lions Gate and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer won't sell or won't sell in a timely manner their content to anyone else like Showtime and HBO.
Frankly, part of me wants Epix to fail. |
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